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Author Topic: Cost effective display options for the rest of us  (Read 14491 times)
vaphoto
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« on: August 09, 2009, 07:01:45 AM »
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The "Tale of two displays" points out that my Apple displays are lacking. What are the cost effective display options for someone printing only a few images a month on an Epson 3800? I currently use two screens a 15" MacBook Pro and an Apple Cinema Display (24" flat panel).
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vaphoto
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 07:07:20 AM »
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What Mark didn't mention in the article is that the 24" and 30" Cinemadisplays offer tremendous value for the money. If one isn't cash rich or doesn't have hyper exacting standards then something like the Eizo really isn't going to make your prints any better.

Nice to have, not got to have.

Michael

Ps: I use a 30" Cinemadisplay, and have for the past two years, ever since my Sony Artisan died. I can afford an Eizo but have no plans at the moment to get one. I feel that I'd rather spend the $5K at the moment on lenses and bodies that will enhance my shooting ability rather than a monitor that will only give me a somewhat better editing view of my images.
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 07:35:08 AM »
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Quote from: michael
What Mark didn't mention in the article is that the 24" and 30" Cinemadisplays offer tremendous value for the money. If one isn't cash rich or doesn't have hyper exacting standards then something like the Eizo really isn't going to make your prints any better.

I bought an Eizo way back when there just weren't any other good choices. Can't justify the price now when there are many more cost effective models that are good enough. My next one will most likely be an Apple.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 07:36:27 AM by jjlphoto » Logged

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k bennett
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 07:57:51 AM »
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I've been using the 30 inch Apple cinema display for several years, and I have to agree with Michael. For me, $5000 will buy a lot of useful photo and lighting gear. (Alternatively, $5000 will buy a souped-up MacPro *and* a 30-inch ACD.) The proof is in the prints -- both offset and inkjet, my work prints well.

That said, the 24 inch Eizo is much more affordable at about $2000.
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howardm
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 07:59:56 AM »
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Dell 2209WA or 2408WFP
HP 2475W or 2275S
NEC P221W or 2490 or 2690

IMO, Eizo is totally over the top in price.  It may be incrementally better than some other top shelf product like the NECs
but as Michael pointed out, what's it worth to you?  I'd also rather have bodies, lenses, studio lighting, etc.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 08:50:30 AM »
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Quote from: vaphoto
The "Tale of two displays" points out that my Apple displays are lacking. What are the cost effective display options for someone printing only a few images a month on an Epson 3800? I currently use two screens a 15" MacBook Pro and an Apple Cinema Display (24" flat panel).
Thanks
vaphoto

I think NEC x90 series panels are the best solution. Personally, I'd rather take 3090WQXi than Eizo - it's cheaper, it has larger gamut, it has 12 bit LUT, so can be internally calibrated with surgical precision, and it also has electronic uniformity compensation, so is even from edge to edge. In fact - it has H-IPS matrix rather than S-PVA, so it also perfect when viewed at an angle. Eizo's S-PVA has very low black point, so at 80 cd/m^2 it has approx. 400:1 contrast ratio, while IPS type panels have little higher black point, and that's why they should rather be calibrated to a higher luminance level. Apart from that NEC is really a decent performer and it can be a perfect alternative for expansive Eizo CG series panels.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 08:52:47 AM by Czornyj » Logged

tongelsing
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 08:09:34 AM »
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My problem with monitors is often the opposite. They are to good!!! ( Lacie321, Apple 23" and 30")
I deliver on a yearbasis around a 200 prints with a average size of A3+ but most of my work is viewed and judged on screen. Internet, mail, projection etc are my common  clientplatforms.
When I am working with my images, correcting them for the most pleasing results I work with my monitors and they do a good job for printing purposes.
But sometimes it is rather dissapointing to see your work on monitors by  your friends, family and even worse your clients.
I should work also with a 'average bad monitor' for judging to see what others probably will see! In fact I'm doing this already for the last 25 years, but not for images but for sound.
Its a well known fact in musicstudio's around the world that you shouldn't  mix your recordings on your expensive A-monitorsystem but using most of the time your B-monitors instead. Otherwise you are fooling yourself. That fantastic sound of your A-monitor will not be heard on average consumer loudspeakers.
The same holds true maybe in a lesser extend for images. If your monitor is 'wow' (my apple 30" is wow, the sheer size alone) you might become to quickly satisfied with your results.
Your pictures should kept their impact also on lesser screens.

Having said this, if I had  the money  I probably would buy a Eizo 30"  
Ton
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:29:38 AM by tongelsing » Logged
JeffKohn
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 09:46:34 AM »
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Quote from: tongelsing
But sometimes it is rather dissapointing to see your work on monitors by  your friends, family and even worse your clients.
I should work also with a 'average bad monitor' for judging to see what others probably will see!
The only problem with this is that there's no knowing how bad other folks displays will be, or exactly how they will be bad: crushed blacks, lousy grayscale tracking, too bright, etc. There isn't really a consistent, reproducible lowest commmon denominator you can aim for.

Quote
In fact I'm doing this already for the last 25 years, but not for images but for sound.
Its a well known fact in musicstudio's around the world that you shouldn't  mix your recordings on your expensive A-monitorsystem but using most of the time your B-monitors instead. Otherwise you are fooling yourself. That fantastic sound of your A-monitor will not be heard on average consumer loudspeakers.
It should be noted that some of us really hate this fact. As someone with a nice sound system at home, good headphones at the office, and even a decent car stereo it really grates on my nerves to listen to poorly mixed music that's way too bright with the loudness pushed so hard that there's constant clipping and distortion.
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tongelsing
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 11:40:35 AM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
The only problem with this is that there's no knowing how bad other folks displays will be, or exactly how they will be bad: crushed blacks, lousy grayscale tracking, too bright, etc. There isn't really a consistent, reproducible lowest commmon denominator you can aim for.

 I fully agree with you. The problem with publishing on screen is that most comsumer (non-professional/noncalibrated)screens are so different.



Quote
It should be noted that some of us really hate this fact. As someone with a nice sound system at home, good headphones at the office, and even a decent car stereo it really grates on my nerves to listen to poorly mixed music that's way too bright with the loudness pushed so hard that there's constant clipping and distortion.

You are right, I hate that sound too. But that is a well aware choice of musicians and producers and has little to do with mixing on a B-monitor system. Sometimes you have (literally) to step back for seeing and hearing what is going on. What does the overall picture looks like
Sorry this is off topic but there are so many similarities between images and sound that it justifies it a little bit.

Ton

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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 12:45:08 PM »
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Mark and I shop at the same camera store and the same salesman has been tempting me with the Eizo for the past several months.  Bottom line is it is everything he claims in the article.  However, at least for the time being, I remain satisfied with my 30" cinema; I know how to read it for my prints, and get what I want, so no huge, glaring deficiency --- at least yet.  My next $5K is probably going to go to a 9900, and at that time I'll probably need a new monitor anyway, so hopefully the Eizo has dropped a few grand by then -- yeah right -- soooo, I'll probably look to the NEC 30" (at about half the cost of the Eizo) instead...

PS: And he's right about editing on a 30" too --- once you've been there, you can't go back to anything smaller...

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 01:20:45 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 12:50:46 PM »
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Yes, the P22W is pretty nice although its not an IPS panel. Worked with a classroom of them a few months ago, worked quite nicely with the SpectraView II software and supported colorimeter.

Sorry Michael, I find absolutely nothing special or unique about Apple displays and haven't for years. In fact, they are too damn bright out of the box with hardly a lick of control over this. You can't even adjust them vertically. Nice looking, that's about it. I've got one that is adequate for PS palettes.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 01:25:50 PM »
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I have an Eizo CG241W that I've been using for over a year and am pretty happy with. I'm not sure my workspace wouldsupport a 30" display.

Right now I don't think I'd spend a huge chunk of money on a high-end display until the LCD and video card manufacturers get their act together on fully supporting deep color (HDMI 1.3), or whatever they decide to call it on the PC. I believe Windows 7 has support for this, so it should just be a matter of time.
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 02:22:13 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
I think NEC x90 series panels are the best solution. Personally, I'd rather take 3090WQXi than Eizo - it's cheaper, it has larger gamut, it has 12 bit LUT, so can be internally calibrated with surgical precision, and it also has electronic uniformity compensation, so is even from edge to edge. In fact - it has H-IPS matrix rather than S-PVA, so it also perfect when viewed at an angle. Eizo's S-PVA has very low black point, so at 80 cd/m^2 it has approx. 400:1 contrast ratio, while IPS type panels have little higher black point, and that's why they should rather be calibrated to a higher luminance level. Apart from that NEC is really a decent performer and it can be a perfect alternative for expansive Eizo CG series panels.

Czornyj,

I'm not that familiar with the NEC line up. After looking at their web site it seems the MultiSync 90 series or the SpectraView series are the ones people are talking about? May not be able to pop for a 30" model. A 24" or even a 20" would probably be fine. Are the SpectraView Series monitors just MultiSync's with the dedicated colorimeter? I already own a GMB i1 Pro spectro, (GMB Match-3 software sucks) and I use it on my Eizo ColorEdge CG21 with Eizo ColorNavigator software.
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 02:25:13 PM »
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Quote from: michael
What Mark didn't mention in the article is that the 24" and 30" Cinemadisplays offer tremendous value for the money. If one isn't cash rich or doesn't have hyper exacting standards then something like the Eizo really isn't going to make your prints any better.

Nice to have, not got to have.

Michael

Ps: I use a 30" Cinemadisplay, and have for the past two years, ever since my Sony Artisan died. I can afford an Eizo but have no plans at the moment to get one. I feel that I'd rather spend the $5K at the moment on lenses and bodies that will enhance my shooting ability rather than a monitor that will only give me a somewhat better editing view of my images.

I want to ditto that.  I've calibrated literally hundreds of displays, and the Apple Cinemas are really remarkable- and above all, consistent.
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Ted Dillard
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 02:55:52 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
Czornyj,

I'm not that familiar with the NEC line up. After looking at their web site it seems the MultiSync 90 series or the SpectraView series are the ones people are talking about? May not be able to pop for a 30" model. A 24" or even a 20" would probably be fine. Are the SpectraView Series monitors just MultiSync's with the dedicated colorimeter? I already own a GMB i1 Pro spectro, (GMB Match-3 software sucks) and I use it on my Eizo ColorEdge CG21 with Eizo ColorNavigator software.

Yes, NEC Spectraview is just a Multisync 90 panel with Spectraview II software. There are 2 panoramic wide gamut type panels - 2690WUXi/2690WUXi2 (26") and 3090WQXi (30"). The 2490WUXi/2490WUXi2 (24") is normal gamut panoramic type panel. There are also 2190UXi and 2090UXi normal gamut, classic 4:3 proportion panels. All these displays are H-IPS type panels (LG-Philips), apart from 2190UXi that is SA-SFT (NEC), very similar to S-IPS (Hitachi) that you have in your CG21.

Spectraview II is a very nice profiler, similar to ColorNavigator (or maybe even better). It works with i1pro and all popular colorimeters and spectros (including the newest ColorMunki!). All the above mentioned displays are quality wise comparable to your CG, plus they have electronic uniformity compensation and wider gamut (2690WUXi, 3090WQXi).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 02:59:00 PM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 03:01:29 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Yes, NEC Spectraview is just a Multisync 90 panel with Spectraview II software.

Need Will to pipe in here but I'm not sure they are identical, even if so, I suspect they are hand picked off the line for use as the SpectraView line (much as Sony did with the Artisans).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 03:19:08 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Need Will to pipe in here but I'm not sure they are identical, even if so, I suspect they are hand picked off the line for use as the SpectraView line (much as Sony did with the Artisans).

European NEC Spectraview panels are 100% hand picked, measured, and they even have a certificate with results of measurements, but they're also much more expansive than Multisync series.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 03:20:33 PM by Czornyj » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2009, 03:21:34 PM »
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I bought a new 30 inch monitor a couple of months ago and ended up going with the NEC LCD3090WQXI because it cost only slightly more than the Apple 30 inch but has a wider gamut (approximately AdobeRGB) and internal 12 bit LUTs for calibration.

I bought the LCD3090W-BK-SV package which includes the monitor, SpectraView software and customized i1 Display calibration device. The whole package ended up costing $2560CDN or so vs. $2100CDN for the Apple (without a calibrator or software).

I'm very happy with it, except that the Luminous Landscape website CSS is *really* luminous on the monitor because of the wide gamut, but you get used to that too.  The images display fine.

Martin
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digitaldog
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 03:39:46 PM »
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Quote from: mrenters
I bought the LCD3090W-BK-SV package which includes the monitor, SpectraView software and customized i1 Display calibration device. The whole package ended up costing $2560CDN or so vs. $2100CDN for the Apple (without a calibrator or software).

Exactly. So why would anyone consider or recommend an Apple Cinema given those facts? That custom mated colorimeter alone nearly makes up the difference in price here without even mentioning the high bit panel and superb software.

So considering what you get in the package, the Cinema and the Eizo seem to my mind to both be over priced. Certainly the Apple is, I'm still wondering what the Eizo offers for the extra bucks.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2009, 03:40:43 PM »
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Quote from: michael
What Mark didn't mention in the article is that the 24" and 30" Cinemadisplays offer tremendous value for the money. If one isn't cash rich or doesn't have hyper exacting standards then something like the Eizo really isn't going to make your prints any better.

Nice to have, not got to have.

Michael

Ps: I use a 30" Cinemadisplay, and have for the past two years, ever since my Sony Artisan died. I can afford an Eizo but have no plans at the moment to get one. I feel that I'd rather spend the $5K at the moment on lenses and bodies that will enhance my shooting ability rather than a monitor that will only give me a somewhat better editing view of my images.


I came back home from 2 years overseas and needed to change everything. Made a simple promise to myself having worked with my eyes as my major tool for 28 years, give them a break!
I needed to consider the amount of time I spend in front of the direct link to the computer, namely the monitor which is with many (present company excepted) the last thing to spent money on. Not wanting to mess about I bought an Eizo CG241W 24 inch. LED lit monitors not required for WYSIWYG but great for TV.
I struggled with the cost but I am happy with the choice I made. If the cost is over the top ask yourselves about the early DSLR's and how much we spent on them just to yearn to update asap. My Eizo will be around a lot longer............than my first Olympus which cost the same.
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