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Author Topic: Cost effective display options for the rest of us  (Read 14003 times)
Pete_G
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2009, 06:30:40 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
European NEC Spectraview panels are 100% hand picked, measured, and they even have a certificate with results of measurements, but they're also much more expansive than Multisync series.


On my Spectraview monitor there was a rather badly applied Spectraview sticker, when I peeled it off it said Multisync underneath. Have no complaints about the monitor though. Love it.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2009, 07:02:10 AM »
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Quote from: Pete_G
On my Spectraview monitor there was a rather badly applied Spectraview sticker, when I peeled it off it said Multisync underneath. Have no complaints about the monitor though. Love it.

That's how they make Spectraview panels in Europe - they select the nice looking ones, measure them, put the SV sticker on the frame and on the box, add Spectraview Display 4 software and a hood, and enable the hardware calibration (Spectraview Display 4 aka basICColor Display 4 doesn't work with non-SV panels).
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digitaldog
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2009, 09:32:14 AM »
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Quote from: Pete_G
On my Spectraview monitor there was a rather badly applied Spectraview sticker, when I peeled it off it said Multisync underneath. Have no complaints about the monitor though. Love it.

Where? Don't see any stickers on my 2690 or 3090. These are US versions.
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Andrew Rodney
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FredT
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2009, 09:36:22 AM »
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Other than slightly larger pixels in the 2690, is there any difference in everyday use between the NEC 2490 and 2690?
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Czornyj
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2009, 09:46:47 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Where? Don't see any stickers on my 2690 or 3090. These are US versions.
http://www.ixbt.com/monitor/catalog/nec06/...aview2190-b.jpg

Quote from: FredT
Other than slightly larger pixels in the 2690, is there any difference in everyday use between the NEC 2490 and 2690?
- 2490WUXi and 2490WUXi2 are "normal" gamut displays (~sRGB),
- 2690WUXi is wide gamut display (~AdobeRGB),
- 2690WUXi2 is a little bit wider than 2690WUXi gamut display (>AdobeRGB)
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2009, 11:48:58 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
- 2490WUXi and 2490WUXi2 are "normal" gamut displays (~sRGB),
- 2690WUXi is wide gamut display (~AdobeRGB),
- 2690WUXi2 is a little bit wider than 2690WUXi gamut display (>AdobeRGB)


24" Disppays:
2490WUXi2-BK is $1099.00, covers sRGB gamut, supports Spectraview, but the Spectraview software is an additional $89.00, and you use your own device (if supported).

Assuming you are going to want to take advantage of their dedicated the software, for an extra 100 bucks, you might as well get the dedicated colorimeter and buy the SV model of that size listed below.

2490W2-BK-SV is $1299.00, covers sRGB gamut, and comes with software and colorimeter.
2490WUXiSV is $1299.00, covers 75% of AdobeRGB gamut, and comes with software and colorimeter.

26" Displays:
2690WUXi2-BK is $1199.00, covers 97.8% of AdobeRGB, supports Spectraview, but the Spectraview software is an additional $89.00, and you use your own device (if supported).

2690W2-BK-SV is $1449.00, covers 97% of AdobeRGB, and comes with software and colorimeter.
It seems the 26" displays that are cherry picked for SV status are rated a bit smaller gamut than the regular MultiSync line.

If you are used to working with other sRGB gamut displays in the studio, would going to an AdobeRGB, or a 75% AdobeRGB gamut throw off your visual comfort level? I've read that some folks seem the AdobeRGB displays appear bit flat.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 12:18:00 PM by jjlphoto » Logged

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Czornyj
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2009, 12:31:11 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
2490WUXi2-BK is $1099.00, covers sRGB gamut, supports Spectraview, but the Spectraview software is an additional $89.00, and you use your own device (if supported). So for an extra 100 bucks, you might as well get the dedicated colorimeter and buy the SV model of that size listed below.

2490W2-BK-SV is $1299.00, covers sRGB gamut, and comes with software and colorimeter.
2490WUXiSV is $1299, covers 75% of AdobeRGB gamut, and comes with software and colorimeter.

Regarding their two 26" models, the 2690WUXi2-BK for $1199.00 is listed at 97.8% of AdobeRGB, 2690W2-BK-SV for $1449 is listed at 97% of AdobeRGB. It seems the 26" displays that are cherry picked for SV status are rated a bit smaller gamut than the regular MultiSync line.

If you are used to working with other sRGB gamut displays in the studio, would going to an AdobeRGB, or a 75% AdobeRGB gamut throw off your visual comfort level? I've read that some folks seem the AdobeRGB displays appear bit flat.

Goddamnit, I'll never understand NEC. In Europe both 2690WUXi2, 3090WUXi and their color critical incarnations - Spectraview Reference 2690 and Spectraview Reference 3090 are advertised as ~107% AdobeRGB panels...

Personally I work on 2190UXi, it's more suitable for what I do (photo editing, layout and prepress work for offset print). But wide gamut panels I tested and calibrated (2690WUXi, P221W, Eizo CG222W and S2231/32) do a better job when it comes to simulate the look of inkjet printer output. I bought a little Epson 7880 for personal use lately (just  for fun - I couldn't resist), and now I'd really like to get one of these wide gamut panels for print preparation.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 12:33:18 PM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2009, 12:38:40 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Goddamnit, I'll never understand NEC. In Europe both 2690WUXi2, 3090WUXi and their color critical incarnations - Spectraview Reference 2690 and Spectraview Reference 3090 are advertised as ~107% AdobeRGB panels...

Might be the way they are calculating this spec. Here's a post from Will on the ColorSync list that explains how NEC should be doing this (Present coverage versus Percent area):
Quote
To clarify what this means, since there is a lot of confusion about this in the industry (intentional or not):

The de facto standard when throwing around display gamut sizes is currently to quote the gamut area, calculated in CIE xy, relative to a reference gamut and expressed as a percentage. If the reference color gamut is unspecified, it is generally assumed to be NTSC (1953) - (which is pretty useless since it's not in use and makes things more confusing, especially for those doing video work).

Another confusing point about this figure is that it does not say what portion of the 2 gamuts overlap, so it would be possible to have a very large % gamut area, but only have a smaller portion of it actually covering the reference gamut.

At NEC we have started to quote 2 sets of figures: "Percent Area" and "Percent Coverage".

The "Percent Area" is simply the area in CIE xy of the display gamut vs the reference gamut, with no consideration of how much of the gamuts actually overlap. This value can be > 100%.

The "Percent Coverage" is the overlapping area of the 2 gamuts expressed as a percent of the total area of the reference gamut. The maximum possible value for this is 100%.

We generally quote these values for AdobeRGB and sRGB, so it is easier to determine which color gamut best suits a particular application.

Using CIE xy is not ideal because it overemphasizes the greens and under emphasizes the blues. A much better way would be to use CIE u' v', but that would probably cause more confusion and make direct comparisons even more difficult.

Will Hollingworth
Manager of OEM Product Design & Development Engineering
NEC Display Solutions of America, Inc.
http://www.necdisplay.com
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Andrew Rodney
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2009, 12:46:37 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Goddamnit, I'll never understand NEC. In Europe both 2690WUXi2, 3090WUXi and their color critical incarnations - Spectraview Reference 2690 and Spectraview Reference 3090 are advertised as ~107% AdobeRGB panels...

I wonder if the panels used for models shipped to the UK or other countries come from a different vendor or assembly line? May be something due to trade restrictions, patents, etc.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2009, 01:06:04 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Might be the way they are calculating this spec. Here's a post from Will on the ColorSync list that explains how NEC should be doing this (Present coverage versus Percent area):
Well, it seems that NEC Display Solutions America prefers "Percent Coverage" method, while NEC Display Solutions Europe had choosen the "Percent area" one. I'd like dE^3 value or L*a*b percent coverage method, if someone would ask.

Quote from: jjlphoto
I wonder if the panels used for models shipped to the UK or other countries come from a different vendor or assembly line? May be something due to trade restrictions, patents, etc.
Not likely - as mentioned above, it's rather a matter of gamut size calculation method.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2009, 02:09:56 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Well, it seems that NEC Display Solutions America prefers "Percent Coverage" method, while NEC Display Solutions Europe had choosen the "Percent area" one. I'd like dE^3 value or L*a*b percent coverage method, if someone would ask.

While I love the products, I really, really wish NEC would act like a global company and provide some consistency here, as well as the software supplied and so forth. And my god, don't they understand people can purchase software from the Web? I remember when prospective customers couldn't buy the SpectraView II software because NEC didn't have enough CDs. Its a really small download. No web store? Crazy.
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Andrew Rodney
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2009, 02:57:12 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
While I love the products, I really, really wish NEC would act like a global company and provide some consistency here, as well as the software supplied and so forth. And my god, don't they understand people can purchase software from the Web? I remember when prospective customers couldn't buy the SpectraView II software because NEC didn't have enough CDs. Its a really small download. No web store? Crazy.


I thought Spectraview software was priced at $89.00 as a download, and $99 as a CD?

I think their model nomenclature and product descriptions needs to be revamped as well. The 2490WUXi-BK is listed as a Business Class display, and the 2490WUXi2-BK is rated as a Professional Class display. However, the Business Class unit is rated at 75% of AdobeRGB, and the Professional Class unit at just sRGB.
Also, the Business Class unit does not have any mention of Spectraview software compatibility in its description, but the Spectraview compatibility page does list it as compatible.

Makes comparing their units very confusing.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 03:09:48 PM by jjlphoto » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2009, 03:19:53 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
I thought Spectraview software was priced at $89.00 as a download, and $99 as a CD?

If so, that's a recent and welcomed change. I know a year or so ago, people who wanted to purchase had to buy the CD version and when it wasn't available, these people had to wait on production.
Quote
The 2490WUXi-BK is listed as a Business Class display, and the 2490WUXi2-BK is rated as a Professional Class display. However, the Business Class unit is rated at 75% of AdobeRGB, and the Professional Class unit at just sRGB.
I can't be too critical of that considering I don't feel that the size of the display gamut alone places the unit in a fixed category. The talk of percentage of Adobe RGB (1998) is kind of like those spec's for contrast ratio, where we are to consider "more is better". In some cases, for some users, they are far better off with an sRGB display than a wider gamut display. I'm sure other displays that have wide gamut, but inferior (if any) calibration software or not working high bit would be less useful than a 2490.
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Andrew Rodney
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2009, 03:29:43 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
If so, that's a recent and welcomed change. I know a year or so ago, people who wanted to purchase had to buy the CD version and when it wasn't available, these people had to wait on production.

I can't be too critical of that considering I don't feel that the size of the display gamut alone places the unit in a fixed category. The talk of percentage of Adobe RGB (1998) is kind of like those spec's for contrast ratio, where we are to consider "more is better". In some cases, for some users, they are far better off with an sRGB display than a wider gamut display. I'm sure other displays that have wide gamut, but inferior (if any) calibration software or not working high bit would be less useful than a 2490.

So in reality, 75% of AdobeRGB may be even smaller than sRGB?

Another confusing thing is that both their 24" and 26" models both spec native resolutions of 1920 x 1200.
24" units lists pixel pitch/.270mm, and with a ppi/94.
26'' units lists pixel pitch/.287mm, and with a ppi/89.
Seems like lower detail in their wide screen 26" units.

Another confusing item listed strangely in their descriptions:
3090WQXi-BK lists its native res/2560x1600, pixel pitch/.251mm and with a ppi/101.
3090W-BK-SV lists its native res/2560x1600, pixel pitch/.251mm and with a ppi of 89?? That's gotta be a typo!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 04:34:36 PM by jjlphoto » Logged

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Schewe
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2009, 05:30:49 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Exactly. So why would anyone consider or recommend an Apple Cinema given those facts?


Actually it's a bit worse...Michael is basing his opinion of the Cinema Displays on his older, better Cinema Display–which Apple doesn't sell any more. The new ones are spec'ed lower and are generally thought of as being inferior to the series from 2-3 years ago.

So, again, the "current" Cinema Displays really are less good than the NEC Spectraviews...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 05:32:03 PM by Schewe » Logged
Paul Sumi
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2009, 06:19:40 PM »
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I'm a U.S. buyer of the 2690 and the SpectraView II software.  Yes, I had to wait for the damn CD to get the software after buying it on-line.

But the absolutely crazy thing was, the newer updated versions of the software were available for download! And (I believe) they are complete installs, not just the updated files.  I think the NEC USA site said that all you needed was a legit serial number.  What's so friggin difficult about sending me a s/n on-line?

Sheesh.

Paul
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digitaldog
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2009, 07:18:15 PM »
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Quote from: PaulS
But the absolutely crazy thing was, the newer updated versions of the software were available for download! And (I believe) they are complete installs, not just the updated files. =


Sure does. I just updated my version today. Go to the site, download, you're done. Of course it detects a legitimate serial number. But the point is, they could sell you a serial number and allow you to download the software, all from the web. No need for that silly CD.
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Andrew Rodney
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pshambroom
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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »
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I just got a factory refurbished NEC LCD2690WUXi for $723 from Tech For Less, a Colorado company. NEC offers a one year factory warranty for refurbs. I'm buying an X-Rite i1Display 2 and you can download the SpectraViewII from NEC ($89?), so it will be similar to the 2690 SVII setup for under $1000. This seems like a fabulous deal for a large critical color monitor setup with hardware calibration and electronic color stability adjustment. The Tech for Less web site says they still have about 30 2690 refurbs in stock. Mine arrived yesterday, I haven't tested it yet because I don't have the calibrator yet. The refurb packaging is minimal- you have to download the manual and buy your own DVI cable. I'll report back here if there's any problems with it.
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FredT
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« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2009, 01:11:56 PM »
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Quote from: pshambroom
IThe refurb packaging is minimal- you have to download the manual and buy your own DVI cable. I'll report back here if there's any problems with it.
Please do.  I've been really interested in these, but hesitant to buy refurb from other than the manufacturer.

Update: I just checked on the Tech for Less web site, and warranty is stated to be 90 days.  Also checked NEC web site, and indeed they offer 1-year warranty, but I believe it is only if you buy it from them.  They sell the set directly for $699.  Also note that this is the previous generation of this display.  The new ones (with a "2" attached to the model number) are $1044 refurbished at Tech for Less.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 01:28:02 PM by FredT » Logged
FredT
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2009, 05:14:56 PM »
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Back for another question.  The previous generation 2690 is rated at 91% of AdobeRGB, compared with 97.8% for the current 2690.  More is better, but can I assume that previous 2690 is still better than most anything else available?  $699 for a refurbished display is quite a bargain I think.
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