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Author Topic: hasselblad sensor crop factor  (Read 15186 times)
01af
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 02:54:39 AM »
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Quote from: abdul10000
... I am trying to understand why people use [medium format cameras], and one reason that I thought of was that they offer narrower depth of field.
Huh!? That's not the reason to use larger-format cameras. The reason simply is image quality. Bigger is better, as simple as that. Of course, bigger also is bulkier and pricier, and smaller often is good enough (as long as it's not too small), so most of us are happy with rather small imaging formats. And the standards by which formats are divided into 'small' and 'large' are constantly changing with technology. There were times when 4 × 5" sheets were considered small. Today many consider 24 × 36 mm large.

-- Olaf
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 05:44:47 AM »
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Quote from: Khun_K
In practical, if a 3 days production cost around 50-100K, including to hire models, production studio, photographer, camera/lens, lighting, the art directors and so on, they might just want to work on what's best or what's highest out there.  
Regards, K
Hi, K...

If the total cost of a shoot was £30,000 (or $30,000) a day, what daily rate would the photographer be on?

... or would they normally use several photographers?

On that sort of budget, I suppose the client would expect state-of-the-art (60 mpx) kit, a complete backup set of equipment... Would they be likely to require or appreciate view camera capability?

A photographer once told me that he got selected for this type of (calender) shoot because his rate was the highest... and that was £700 per day in the pre-digital (5*4) era!
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2009, 02:17:13 AM »
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Hi, K...

If the total cost of a shoot was £30,000 (or $30,000) a day, what daily rate would the photographer be on?

... or would they normally use several photographers?

On that sort of budget, I suppose the client would expect state-of-the-art (60 mpx) kit, a complete backup set of equipment... Would they be likely to require or appreciate view camera capability?

A photographer once told me that he got selected for this type of (calender) shoot because his rate was the highest... and that was £700 per day in the pre-digital (5*4) era!
I think it depends on the type of production, some ad gency tend to use the "best" photographer if the nature of shot needs the talent of the photographer, but there are also ad agency that run a very strick layout that they need a good team rather than just a talented photographer then may be the hiring cost for the photographer is not as high, but I would suppose the photographer's rate will be at least above thousan USD and can certainly a lot more.
My point is if the cost of production is so high, it will not matter that much in equipment rental, the client might just go to the best camera availale and spend a fw huundred dollars more on equipment rental.
The pressure of the equipment cost nowadays is not on the client, it is on the produciton house or photographer, pne has to invest tens of thousand dollars more in order to charge a few hundred more. But if the job pays it, it is still a good investment, at least I beleive so.  Saying this, I do not think there will have much difference on a so-called photogrphic quality between 22-39-60 mpx backs, it matters more with photographer himself.

Brgds/K
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 04:10:31 AM »
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I was looking for a graph/diagram/sample of the different sensor sizes compared to each other from say APC-s up to large format [8x10, 11x14,...], anyone here please can find that chart diagram for me? [A diagram that shows the difference comparison in rectangular/square way].
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 04:25:52 AM »
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Quote from: Professional
I was looking for a graph/diagram/sample of the different sensor sizes compared to each other from say APC-s up to large format [8x10, 11x14,...], anyone here please can find that chart diagram for me? [A diagram that shows the difference comparison in rectangular/square way].
The simple way to do it is to forget about crop factors, focal lengths and formats... and think about the angular Fields Of View.

FOV = 2*arctan(format/2)

...so, if your format is equal to double your focal length, you have a FOV of 90 degrees.

Armed with this info you cam make your own chart.
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2009, 06:04:00 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The simple way to do it is to forget about crop factors, focal lengths and formats... and think about the angular Fields Of View.

FOV = 2*arctan(format/2)

...so, if your format is equal to double your focal length, you have a FOV of 90 degrees.

Armed with this info you cam make your own chart.

I prefer to see diagram, i am not good in math and equating and calculating, so with that diagram/chart i can get a better idea about different formats.

Instead, if someone can convert the units of formats all in one unit so we can easily know the difference an we may try to search on Maths books to generate a formula or an equation.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2009, 06:13:17 AM »
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Quote from: Professional
I prefer to see diagram, i am not good in math and equating and calculating, so with that diagram/chart i can get a better idea about different formats.

Instead, if someone can convert the units of formats all in one unit so we can easily know the difference an we may try to search on Maths books to generate a formula or an equation.
1 inch = 25.4mm, I  have given you the formula.

You could get a sheet of graph paper and plot the format on one axis and half the format on the other, the angle of the line would be half the FOV.
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2009, 06:47:33 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
1 inch = 25.4mm, I  have given you the formula.

You could get a sheet of graph paper and plot the format on one axis and half the format on the other, the angle of the line would be half the FOV.

OK thanks!
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Abdulrahman Aljabri
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2009, 12:52:37 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
DCU is Hasselblad for Digital Capture Unit or Digiback.

On 24 Mpx DSLRs (Canon & Nikon) the camera body, digital sensor and mirror housing are all in the same unit, so you cannot use the sensor on a view camera (except for with long lenses).

The ability to use the DCU on a view or technical camera enables one to control the plane of sharpest focus (and perspective) and opens up specialist markets... the small sensors (relative to 5 * 4 inch) of digital cameras give you more DOF at any specific aperture and focal length, but you have to try to avoid small apertures due to diffraction.

View cameras also enable you to combine images (shift and stitch) for high res without the distortion and cropping problems you get with pan and stitch.


Are you saying you can use digital backs just like large format film cameras? Hence you can shift and tilt in many directions and degrees and use all lens to shift and tilt since the function is built into the camera instead of the lens? If that is the case, do digital backs offer better tilt and shift function than using 35mm cameras with dedicated tilt and shift lens?

I know its been one month since the last post, but in that time I have done some work with my new 90mm ts-e and have come to love tilt and especailly shift since then.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 12:56:41 PM by abdul10000 » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2009, 12:55:46 PM »
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Quote from: 01af
Huh!? That's not the reason to use larger-format cameras. The reason simply is image quality. Bigger is better, as simple as that. Of course, bigger also is bulkier and pricier, and smaller often is good enough (as long as it's not too small), so most of us are happy with rather small imaging formats. And the standards by which formats are divided into 'small' and 'large' are constantly changing with technology. There were times when 4 × 5" sheets were considered small. Today many consider 24 × 36 mm large.

-- Olaf


That's the obvious advantage and I was looking for more reasons. So for some there is lower depth of field and for others there is the tilt and shift capability as I am learning now.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2009, 01:30:25 PM »
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Quote from: abdul10000
Are you saying you can use digital backs just like large format film cameras?
You can use digital backs on large format (film) cameras.
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Hence you can shift and tilt in many directions and degrees and use all lens to shift and tilt since the function is built into the camera instead of the lens?
Yes, but you cannot use all SLR lenses on a view camera with a digiback
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If that is the case, do digital backs offer better tilt and shift function than using 35mm cameras with dedicated tilt and shift lens?
With a digital back attached (via an adaptor) to a large format view camera you get far better  tilt and shift function than using 35mm cameras with dedicated tilt and shift lens, and better shift and tilt function than with a medium format camera and a shift tilt adaptor (e.g. Hasselblad and the HTS adaptor)
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I know its been one month since the last post, but in that time I have done some work with my new 90mm ts-e and have come to love tilt and especailly shift since then.
There is a crop of medium format digital view cameras, but I think they are all toys compared to the Sinar P3 (but adequate for some jobs some of the time).

The Sinar P3 medium-format (6*9 cm) monorail view camera has precision geared movements, and plenty of movement (enough tilt, shift etc) on front and rear standards. Mine has been converted from a P3 5*4 inch camera, and has more movement that the standard P3. I have a P, P2 and P3 and it is a modular system, so (using tapered conversion bellows) I can use my P2 bellows in the middle of a P3 system for extra extension - to about a metre an a half, e.g. for macro.
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2009, 11:23:27 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
You can use digital backs on large format (film) cameras.

Yes, but you cannot use all SLR lenses on a view camera with a digiback

With a digital back attached (via an adaptor) to a large format view camera you get far better  tilt and shift function than using 35mm cameras with dedicated tilt and shift lens, and better shift and tilt function than with a medium format camera and a shift tilt adaptor (e.g. Hasselblad and the HTS adaptor)

There is a crop of medium format digital view cameras, but I think they are all toys compared to the Sinar P3 (but adequate for some jobs some of the time).

The Sinar P3 medium-format (6*9 cm) monorail view camera has precision geared movements, and plenty of movement (enough tilt, shift etc) on front and rear standards. Mine has been converted from a P3 5*4 inch camera, and has more movement that the standard P3. I have a P, P2 and P3 and it is a modular system, so (using tapered conversion bellows) I can use my P2 bellows in the middle of a P3 system for extra extension - to about a metre an a half, e.g. for macro.

Which Sinar is better, P or P2 or P3?
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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2009, 03:49:17 PM »
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Quote from: Professional
Which Sinar is better, P or P2 or P3?
All the info below is off the top of my head, but I am sure Edwin or someone will correct me if any details are wrong...

The P is the original, that was invented ¿half a century? ago... it  is silver (aluminium), and does not have individual knobs/thumb wheels for each movement, but has a changeover lever.

The P2 was invented 10 or fifteen years ago, is black and does not have the change over lever, and has a knob or thumb wheel for each movement.

The P and P2 are 5*4, 5*7 or 10*8  inch sheet film cameras, but can be used with roll film backs, scan backs or digibacks.

The Sinar 5*4 lensboard is a long-established standard, and compatible components can be acquired inexpensively.

The P3 is a 6*9 cm medium format camera made for digital - most of the available components have connections for digital, and are not cheap, but it is a marginally lighter, and much less bulky system.

The P was, and the P2 and P3 are no-compromise professional (studio) cameras.

The P is cheap, and has geared movements.

The P2 is about £1,000 on eBay, and you can use it with digital backs with an adaptor and/or stitching back.

The P3 is the best, but is not cheap, and is not widely available second hand.

The F3 is a medium format monorail without the geared movements... it also lighter and takes up less room in your gadget bag for landscape photography

There are other models like the Sinar X, with which I am not familiar.
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2009, 03:58:18 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
All the info below is off the top of my head, but I am sure Edwin or someone will correct me if any details are wrong...

The P is the original, that was invented ¿half a century? ago... it  is silver (aluminium), and does not have individual knobs/thumb wheels for each movement, but has a changeover lever.

The P2 was invented 10 or fifteen years ago, is black and does not have the change over lever, and has a knob or thumb wheel for each movement.

The P and P2 are 5*4, 5*7 or 10*8  inch sheet film cameras, but can be used with roll film backs, scan backs or digibacks.

The Sinar 5*4 lensboard is a long-established standard, and compatible components can be acquired inexpensively.

The P3 is a 6*9 cm medium format camera made for digital - most of the available components have connections for digital, and are not cheap, but it is a marginally lighter, and much less bulky system.

The P was, and the P2 and P3 are no-compromise professional (studio) cameras.

The P is cheap, and has geared movements.

The P2 is about £1,000 on eBay, and you can use it with digital backs with an adaptor and/or stitching back.

The P3 is the best, but is not cheap, and is not widely available second hand.

The F3 is a medium format monorail without the geared movements... it also lighter and takes up less room in your gadget bag for landscape photography

There are other models like the Sinar X, with which I am not familiar.

I was looking at Sinar large format, so you say that P and P2 are the large formats but not the P3?
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2009, 04:13:33 PM »
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Quote from: Professional
I was looking at Sinar large format, so you say that P and P2 are the large formats but not the P3?
That is correct.
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2009, 04:29:01 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
All the info below is off the top of my head, but I am sure Edwin or someone will correct me if any details are wrong...
Sure Dick, here the corrections or comments

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P is the original, that was invented ¿half a century? ago... it  is silver (aluminium), and does not have individual knobs/thumb wheels for each movement, but has a changeover lever.
The Sinar p was introduced in 1970, and yes, it has silver color, BUT YES, it does have individuals knobs for all the movements, except for the tilt and for the swing (changeover lever, as you mentioned)

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P2 was invented 10 or fifteen years ago, is black and does not have the change over lever, and has a knob or thumb wheel for each movement.
The Sinar p2 has been introduced already 25 years ago, in 1984.

BOTH the Sinar p2 AND p have micrometrical geared movements allowing for automatic locking of any movement position, without having to tight it with a knob or else. BUT the p2 has complete different internal mechanics, more easy (and therefore cheaper) to repair or adjust. When a Sinar p needs to be serviced/re-adjusted every 1 year or maximum 2, the Sinar p2 can be used for as long as 5 years in normal working conditions.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P and P2 are 5*4, 5*7 or 10*8  inch sheet film cameras, but can be used with roll film backs, scan backs or digibacks.
Yes.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The Sinar 5*4 lensboard is a long-established standard, and compatible components can be acquired inexpensively.
Yes.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P3 is a 6*9 cm medium format camera made for digital - most of the available components have connections for digital, and are not cheap, but it is a marginally lighter, and much less bulky system.
The Sinar p3 has 100 mm frames. It was built and designed for digital studio working conditions, therefore is smaller and slightly lighter. It has exactly the same features, movements and possibilities as the p2 (assymetrical axes, 2-point Scheimpflug, DoF scale, automatic lock, micrometrical geared movements, etc ...)

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P was, and the P2 and P3 are no-compromise professional (studio) cameras.
Yes.

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ThierryH
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2009, 04:29:38 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P is cheap, and has geared movements.
Yes.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P2 is about £1,000 on eBay, and you can use it with digital backs with an adaptor and/or stitching back.
Yes.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The P3 is the best, but is not cheap, and is not widely available second hand.
Certainly the most precise, most convenient and full-featured view camera for studio work.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The F3 is a medium format monorail without the geared movements... it also lighter and takes up less room in your gadget bag for landscape photography
The Focus is geared, micrometrical and as precise as on a p2/p3. The rest is absolutely manual and not geared.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
There are other models like the Sinar X, with which I am not familiar.
The Sinar x is basically the very same camera as the Sinar p2, except for 3 points:

- no 0-click position
- the 4x5" frame cannot be taken away the same way as on the p2, in a couple of seconds, but needs to be un-screwed
- when turning the knobs for tilt/swing and for H & V shift are the movements are going in opposite direction, as compared to the p2 (slightly different mechanics)

It is however at least 30% cheaper, although having exactly the same features and precise movements.

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2009, 07:33:06 AM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
Sure Dick, here the corrections or comments
Thank you, Theirry... does the Sinar X come with the same bellows as the P, or is it shorter?

I have jaundice - and they are threatening to send me to hospital for a week.
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« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2009, 09:09:00 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thank you, Theirry... does the Sinar X come with the same bellows as the P, or is it shorter?

The X has the same bellows and uses the same accessories as the P/P2.
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ThierryH
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« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2009, 09:43:58 AM »
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Dick,

The Sinar X has exactly the same bellow as the p, or even the f series.

Good health,
Thierry

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thank you, Theirry... does the Sinar X come with the same bellows as the P, or is it shorter?

I have jaundice - and they are threatening to send me to hospital for a week.
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