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Author Topic: Z3100 & double sided printing on Hahnemuehle Duo  (Read 3085 times)
deelight
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« on: August 26, 2009, 05:25:31 AM »
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Hi all!

Once again I am looking for an option to print my book double sided on Fine Art Paper on my Z3100 (or in case there is no way to realise it: on Duo Satin Paper).

I get stripes supposedly of the transporting wheels on the downside (!) on the first print during printing the second side.

Or is this problem also solved with the new wheel-reel-repair-thing (which I yet did not install, as I always thought it would only relate to the one sided printing paper stripes which never occured on my printer)?

Any workaround or do I miss something and have wrong settings (my driver setting: FAP >250g). Or do you dry the first side for 1 week?  

Thanks for input!!!

Best regards,

Clem
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 08:35:54 AM »
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Quote from: deelight
Hi all!

Once again I am looking for an option to print my book double sided on Fine Art Paper on my Z3100 (or in case there is no way to realise it: on Duo Satin Paper).

I get stripes supposedly of the transporting wheels on the downside (!) on the first print during printing the second side.

Or is this problem also solved with the new wheel-reel-repair-thing (which I yet did not install, as I always thought it would only relate to the one sided printing paper stripes which never occured on my printer)?

Any workaround or do I miss something and have wrong settings (my driver setting: FAP >250g). Or do you dry the first side for 1 week?  

Thanks for input!!!

Best regards,

Clem

With the Z3100 and the upgrade transport rolls + pizza wheel bar installed I have not seen that issue. Not on the Z3200 either, it also has the new version of the wheels etc.
Printed on two varieties of dual sided paper (100 and 190 grams) but not the HM type. Normally I try to keep as long a drying period in between as possible, do the front side after the entire reverse side run is done. If the image is heavy then that is the better method for register control too.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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deelight
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 09:02:01 AM »
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Ernst, thank you for your reply. I am quite surprised, that this "downside" problem is also solved by the new wheel bar. Or does the package include both bars, upper AND bottom bar?

Does there a part number for the exchange piece exist?  I just asked my dealer and he did not hear of the problem but will call me back after a call to HP.

Thanks!

Clem
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 09:02:30 AM by deelight » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 09:27:07 AM »
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Quote from: deelight
Ernst, thank you for your reply. I am quite surprised, that this "downside" problem is also solved by the new wheel bar. Or does the package include both bars, upper AND bottom bar?

Does there a part number for the exchange piece exist?  I just asked my dealer and he did not hear of the problem but will call me back after a call to HP.

Thanks!

Clem

If there are marks they are created by the transport spindle wheels or the pizza wheels in my opinion. The hard sandpaper like coating on the transport axle is an even surface that can't do much harm on papers like that. The rest of the downside paper path is smooth.

The Z3100 Wiki pages mention the following code numbers that I think are for the 24" model while I have the 44" and I see possibly a typo: the new tan pinch rollers have been identified as P/N Q5669-67060 The name on the pinch roller kit is:
"Rubber Pinch Wheel Kit Sv"
"P/N Q5669-67061 for Starwheel With Actuator 24 Sv"

On the 44" starwheel box here is the code P/N: Q6659-67016
The 44" pinch wheel kit box is no longer here.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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deelight
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 05:05:13 AM »
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Thank you, Ernst!

I identified the part that is the reason for the marks. It is the plastic grid with foam rubber inside, right in front of the sandy transport rolls at the downside.

I was quite surprised about this. I attach a shot of my printer with the marked print in the exact position of the grid which proofs my suspect.

Any suggestions what to do?

I am in contact with HP now, but my dealer expects a touch scenario as my printer is out of warranty. Until now I never had a problem with the star/pinch wheel thing and it seems my first thought in this direction wasnīt correct.

Best regards!

Clem
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 05:11:43 AM by deelight » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 06:04:35 AM »
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Quote from: deelight
Thank you, Ernst!

I identified the part that is the reason for the marks. It is the plastic grid with foam rubber inside, right in front of the sandy transport rolls at the downside.

I was quite surprised about this. I attach a shot of my printer with the marked print in the exact position of the grid which proofs my suspect.

Any suggestions what to do?

I am in contact with HP now, but my dealer expects a touch scenario as my printer is out of warranty. Until now I never had a problem with the star/pinch wheel thing and it seems my first thought in this direction wasnīt correct.

Best regards!

Clem

I'm surprised too. The damage done is also more than I expected to see. The "new" starwheel assembly can be raised manually and will reduce the pressure on the plastic grid slightly (it extends underneath the starwheels too) but I doubt it will take away all the pressure. The main pressure on the paper is from the pinch wheels that overhang to the front of the transport axle and by that force the paper in a curve on the bed. The "new" softer pinch wheels will not and can not change that or you will get paper transport faults.

As written I have not seen this in my dual sided prints. I also get the impression that the ink layer must (edit) be very soft if it is ripped by the plastic ribs and then offset to the white parts again. What is the humidity and temperature in the shop?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 03:35:41 PM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
sojournerphoto
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 08:26:38 AM »
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I had the same problem with Hahne Nat Art Duo on my Z3100 with the roller transport fitted. It also seemed to affect Innova HWS duo paper I tried. As a result I've effectively given up printing albums/books double sided, which is a shame as the Canon IPF5000 I had previously worked perfectly for this - unfortunately it also suffered a head failure and it was as cheap to buy the HP as replace the canon head...

Incidentally, although the new transport is largely effective in eliminating wheel marks on Ilford GFS I still get a very slight surface blemish on occasion.

Mike
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deelight
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 08:51:15 AM »
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I have no idea what the humidy is (nothing extreme I would guess as I do not see any reason for this, I am in Cologne/Germany), the temperature in my studio is quite constant at around 20 C degrees as the printer stands in a nearly dark room only with an inside-window to the studio area itself. As I never had problems with the roller marks I did not check this.

The ink on the print on the photo was dried for 4 hours. A drying time of 5 minutes, none in fact, with another print ended up being less damaging but also was far away from acceptable.

Maybe a solution with no rips, a plane thin plastic piece lying over the area with the rips could solve the problem.

Ernst, if you do not have these problems, why? Donīt the rips in your printer touch the paper? Which dou paper did you use?

Mike, thanks for the info, good to know that I am not alone... ;-) But giving up on printing double sided would put in question the whole case of buying of the machine.

Thanks, Clem
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 08:55:14 AM by deelight » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 03:33:19 PM »
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Quote from: deelight
I have no idea what the humidy is (nothing extreme I would guess as I do not see any reason for this, I am in Cologne/Germany), the temperature in my studio is quite constant at around 20 C degrees as the printer stands in a nearly dark room only with an inside-window to the studio area itself. As I never had problems with the roller marks I did not check this.

The ink on the print on the photo was dried for 4 hours. A drying time of 5 minutes, none in fact, with another print ended up being less damaging but also was far away from acceptable.

Maybe a solution with no rips, a plane thin plastic piece lying over the area with the rips could solve the problem.

Ernst, if you do not have these problems, why? Donīt the rips in your printer touch the paper? Which dou paper did you use?

Mike, thanks for the info, good to know that I am not alone... ;-) But giving up on printing double sided would put in question the whole case of buying of the machine.

Thanks, Clem

Clem,

It looks like a normal shop environment then, at least not worse than my shop environment. Another thing: do you feed the sheets through the sheet loader? I always keep a roll on the printer and feed sheets over the roll like the roll itself is inserted. Usually with a silicon coated paper sheet over the roll to reduce friction. I also use the "skew check off" sheet loading method. Description of the dual sided print method I use is on my web site.

I do not see an easy method to change the print bed. Silicon wax on the ribs will not last long. A silicon coated paper or plastic film there will cause a paper and head strike one day.

The papers I use are 100 and 190 gram dual sided paper, coating more or less like Epson EEM. But I have also used an 80 grams newspaper quality with heavy black text and images and the last job was B&W on an offset paper sheets that printed an acceptable image. None showed the problems you have. The first side is usually printed from the roll and cut by the printer. The other side then done as sheets.
 

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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deelight
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 05:39:56 AM »
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Just received official feedback from HP regarding the double sided printing issue.

They (the HP Competence Center) simply say, the printer is not built and not meant to print double sided. They hint at the printers specs. Thatīs easy, isnīt it?  

No more word to say for me then.  

Best,

Clem
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 05:40:37 AM by deelight » Logged

dkressler
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 12:15:46 PM »
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i had the same problem a few weeks ago with double-sided matte.  hp told me the same thing - the printer is not designed for double-sided, but the agent also looked into it further and suggested i try loading 2 sheets of the same paper together.  using a blank sheet on the bottom to take the abuse.  i always load the paper in the slot for roll feed, and it worked pretty well for me.  the only remaining issue is that the alignment tends to be off at least half the time, so it only is really usable with full bleed layouts and pages with a lot of border.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 02:22:10 PM »
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Quote from: deelight
Just received official feedback from HP regarding the double sided printing issue.

They (the HP Competence Center) simply say, the printer is not built and not meant to print double sided. They hint at the printers specs. Thatīs easy, isnīt it?  

No more word to say for me then.  

Best,

Clem

This evening I got a phone call of a friend. He is trying out a new iPF5100 for a large twosided job. The Photorag dual sided 245?gr showed lines, a lighter dual sided Innova quality didn't. Maybe the same reason why the dual sided papers I use do not give that problem on the Z3100-Z3200.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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deelight
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 04:46:03 PM »
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Quote from: dkressler
i had the same problem a few weeks ago with double-sided matte.  hp told me the same thing - the printer is not designed for double-sided, but the agent also looked into it further and suggested i try loading 2 sheets of the same paper together.  using a blank sheet on the bottom to take the abuse.  i always load the paper in the slot for roll feed, and it worked pretty well for me.  the only remaining issue is that the alignment tends to be off at least half the time, so it only is really usable with full bleed layouts and pages with a lot of border.

Yes, this is what they suggested to me aswell. As I tried this a year ago with roll paper - which was a desaster   - I was not expecting a usable process.

But this time I use A3 paper sheets and do it the same way like you - feed the paper together with a lighter second matte sheet at the downside into the roll feed slot. You donīt need to fix it with tapes. Works perfect. Make sure, you use the protection paper at both sides, not only when the already printed page is at the downside. I cut the lighter paper 3mm at each side so you donīt have the problem with the alignment of the main paper. All in all this is an acceptable workaround.

Also I would like to say - thats kind of offtopic - that I received a free upgrade of both roller parts (pinch and star wheel) although my warranty was finished in may 2009. Thanks, HP... I did not have problems with my actual papers and did not have to send in prints showing the problem. I simply argued, that I do not know which paper I will use in the future and how they will work with the faulty old version of the rollers. So, in this case (at least) - thumbs up!

Best,

Clem
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 02:43:47 AM by deelight » Logged

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