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Author Topic: Sony Alpha 850  (Read 21033 times)
lisa_r
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« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2009, 01:36:16 PM »
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Quote from: Pelao
My sense is that Canon will feel the heat a little more than Nikon.

Well hopefully prices will come down across the board. I have my doubts about Canon "feeling the heat" when it comes to the 5D2 sales. I mean what do you suppose the sales ratios are between the a900 vs 5D2? 1:300? 1:500? (again, going my my dealers' comments...) Seems like even after 9 months on the market they are still selling 5D2s as fast as they can make them. Just saying I am not sure if this particular camera is going to directly impact Canons pricing on the 5D2...but time will tell I guess.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:38:12 PM by lisa_r » Logged
Derry
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« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2009, 02:48:56 PM »
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will be interesting to see the 850 showing up on the used mkt at an even lower price point,, it takes about three to four months to see a new camera on the forums FS area,, of course teh glass will still be tough to buy,,

Derry
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uaiomex
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« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2009, 05:33:21 PM »
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It could be around $1,500 and still I won't buy it.
I'm stocked with Canon glass. Also I rather keep myself within a "camera" brand than a TV brand. (in few years this will change).
Sony's incentive to discount this camera from factory is to win adepts. Canon doesn't need that. They only need a killer autofocus system, that's it.
Eduardo

Quote from: Derry
will be interesting to see the 850 showing up on the used mkt at an even lower price point,, it takes about three to four months to see a new camera on the forums FS area,, of course teh glass will still be tough to buy,,

Derry
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frugal
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« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2009, 05:53:26 PM »
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Quote from: Pelao
My sense is that Canon will feel the heat a little more than Nikon. The latter is on something of a rol, and has made some interesting moves in the past 2 years. To my mind Canon has not made any significant moves since the 5D, which was all about the sensor size, since the body was pretty standard.

I tend to agree. I have some questions on how well Nikon can react since Sony is their supplier but the general "vibe" I get from Canon is that they were pushing the market for a long time but got comfortable with being on top and have gotten lazy over the last few years. Nikon has suffered through several years of playing second fiddle to Canon and has clearly come on strong (and hungry) in the last few years. I think that puts the advantage to Nikon as they should have a very recent memory of what it was like to be over-shadowed and Canon has to wake up.

Now what I'd love to see from Nikon is the following:

Drop the D700 down to around $2000-2200, a lot of the NY stores have been selling them for $2400 recently so that's not really a huge cut and would give them something FF in the same price range as the a850. It's also enough higher that it likely wouldn't kill the sales of the D300s as you have some that prefer APS-C (say a large stable of lenses) and/or want video. Suddenly Nikon has a high-end APS-C body with video and LV priced cheaper than the 850 and a FF body that offers better frame rate, LV, AF and (possibly) build quality at slightly more at the sacrifice of resolution. Plus, they could make this change tomorrow since they don't have to push out any new models.

Discontinue the D3 or replace it with a "D3s" adding HD video (ideally, 1080p) and the few other tweaks. This could be a bit of a coup as it would be the first unquestionably "pro" body with video.

Come out with a "D700x" at the $3000-3500 price range. This should cannibalize parts from the D700 and D3x so shouldn't need too much new and at this price would really throw down the gauntlet against the 5dII.

Drop the price of the D3x by about $1500-2000. Using the same sensor in the D700x will increase their volume of that sensor so they should be able to take advantage of that economy of scale to make this happen.

I think if Nikon did this they'd have an extremely compelling pro product line and they'd be competing with Sony on features rather than trying to copy their product line which should help push their brand distinction.
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douglasf13
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« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2009, 06:27:15 PM »
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Quote from: uaiomex
... Also I rather keep myself within a "camera" brand than a TV brand. (in few years this will change).
Eduardo

  I swear, I am going to explode if I read something like this again.  Sony is no more a TV brand than Canon is a $40 printer brand.  Sony has long been known as a professional audio/video brand, and they make things that make our little DSLRs look silly.

:LINK: Ever seen this stuff:?

this camera is hundreds of thousands of dollars:
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 06:27:55 PM by douglasf13 » Logged
zeke
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« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2009, 07:09:27 PM »
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Lots of interesting insights here. Any thoughts about how the new Sony camera will affect prices at lower price points (not just the effect on prices of the obvious direct competitors)? I'm more in the 50D/D300 price range -- will the Sony affect pricing and/or features on the "60D" or "D300x" or whatever Canon and Nikon introduce as their next entries in the higher-end crop-frame models?

zeke
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douglasf13
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« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2009, 07:42:20 PM »
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Quote from: zeke
Lots of interesting insights here. Any thoughts about how the new Sony camera will affect prices at lower price points (not just the effect on prices of the obvious direct competitors)? I'm more in the 50D/D300 price range -- will the Sony affect pricing and/or features on the "60D" or "D300x" or whatever Canon and Nikon introduce as their next entries in the higher-end crop-frame models?

zeke

 Good question, Zeke. It'll be interesting to see how the different line-ups square off in price/features.  It looks like the upcoming Canon "7D" is gonna be a mini 1D with an APS-C 18mp sensor, but hopefully the Best Buy price rumors of well over $2k US aren't true.  Once the A850's street price drops a little, it'll really be pushing hard up against the APS-C cameras.  Fun times.
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K.C.
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« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2009, 08:35:04 PM »
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Quote from: uaiomex
Also I rather keep myself within a "camera" brand than a TV brand.

You are only demonstrating your lack of awareness with that statement.

Sony is developing their DSLR market, which they are relatively new to. If they have half the success they've had in the video realm they'll dwarf Canon in the market quickly.



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frugal
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« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2009, 09:11:47 PM »
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Quote from: zeke
Lots of interesting insights here. Any thoughts about how the new Sony camera will affect prices at lower price points (not just the effect on prices of the obvious direct competitors)? I'm more in the 50D/D300 price range -- will the Sony affect pricing and/or features on the "60D" or "D300x" or whatever Canon and Nikon introduce as their next entries in the higher-end crop-frame models?

zeke

Good question, hard to say for sure because the higher end crop sensor cameras tend to have some features that the 850 doesn't, like higher frame rates, live video or video. I suspect that we're going to start seeing more differentiation in products based on features rather than resolution and I suspect that will be the case for across brands as well.
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Atlasman
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« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2009, 12:35:05 PM »
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Quote from: thomasmoran
I agree, awesome on Sony for mixing it up but as a landscape photographer i've fallen in love with live view and thats a deal breaker for me. Having said that I think this looks to be a perfect camera in terms of price/performance ratio for a whole boat load of people and I would suspect that there will be some interesting meetings going on inside the board rooms of Nikon and Canon in the coming weeks...

So about 7 years ago canon introduced the 1Ds at $8,000 with 11 MP and today you can get a Sony with 25 MP for $2,000.... So what will we be talking about in another 7 years?

So what is it that makes you fall in love with live view?
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bcooter
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« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2009, 12:49:21 PM »
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Quote from: Atlasman
So what is it that makes you fall in love with live view?

If you've ever shot a 5d2 on semi static subjects, it's almost a no brainer to hit focus.  Frame, two quick push buttons and you've zoomed into eyelashes, set the focus push the button and shoot.

Digital is hard to focus and live view takes a lot of angst out of hitting focus and of course the beauty of the 5d2 is what you see is what you get.

Now in regards to the Sony.

I don't think this Sony is amazing because of quality or features  but for still photography it does change the game.

Nobody would have thought even a few years ago that a company would make a 20+ megapixel camera under $2,000, much less one that is coming out with a new lens set of Ziess lenses.

I have a friend that's moved 95% of his work away from medium format backs to  the Sony a900 and hasn't missed a thing and his work is in most major publications monthly.

Right now we're into this strange middle territory where 35mm cameras have gotten very close to the file quality of any medium format back and with the Sony's,  Canons, maybe soon the Nikons they are not doing it for 1/2 the price of past 20 megapixel cameras  but now 1/10th and I doubt seriously if shot in professional conditions, once an image goes through post production few buyers of photography at any level, any genre could tell the difference between this camera and any other, from $7,900 Nikons, to $40,000 digital backs.

I know nobody wants to hear this, but Sony has quietly moved into the market.  A few years ago at Photoplus they still had 1.5 cropped consumer cameras though mounted on the front was big honking Ziess glass, so you just knew the day was coming where they would go head to head with everyone.

They obviously weren't making those lenses for the amateur down the street.

What does amaze me most is the video functions of Sony and even Nikon and Canon seem somewhat stalled.  Sure there's live view generated 720 to 1080 high def, that require manual focus, shoot some form of camera processed video and though the quality and look can be quite amazing, they are still limited in their use and scope.  

You would think Sony would be way ahead on this, given their experience in video and already have at minimum a cine full frame camera with a serious lens set, that shot a raw file,   Kind of a poor man's RED.

Imagine if their next video camera was compatible to their still lenses, then the game really get's changed and honestly it would be hard to ignore a system, that might require two cameras, but all the other parts, especialy glass were interchangable.

Regardless of video, or where Sony lens line is at the moment, it is very hard to ignore what they have recently done and you just kind of get the feeling that when they are ready they could change everything.

It really depends on how fast, how good, how soon.

BC

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douglasf13
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« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2009, 01:49:38 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
If you've ever shot a 5d2 on semi static subjects, it's almost a no brainer to hit focus.  Frame, two quick push buttons and you've zoomed into eyelashes, set the focus push the button and shoot.

Digital is hard to focus and live view takes a lot of angst out of hitting focus and of course the beauty of the 5d2 is what you see is what you get.

Now in regards to the Sony.

I don't think this Sony is amazing because of quality or features  but for still photography it does change the game.

Nobody would have thought even a few years ago that a company would make a 20+ megapixel camera under $2,000, much less one that is coming out with a new lens set of Ziess lenses.

I have a friend that's moved 95% of his work away from medium format backs to  the Sony a900 and hasn't missed a thing and his work is in most major publications monthly.

Right now we're into this strange middle territory where 35mm cameras have gotten very close to the file quality of any medium format back and with the Sony's,  Canons, maybe soon the Nikons they are not doing it for 1/2 the price of past 20 megapixel cameras  but now 1/10th and I doubt seriously if shot in professional conditions, once an image goes through post production few buyers of photography at any level, any genre could tell the difference between this camera and any other, from $7,900 Nikons, to $40,000 digital backs.

I know nobody wants to hear this, but Sony has quietly moved into the market.  A few years ago at Photoplus they still had 1.5 cropped consumer cameras though mounted on the front was big honking Ziess glass, so you just knew the day was coming where they would go head to head with everyone.

They obviously weren't making those lenses for the amateur down the street.

What does amaze me most is the video functions of Sony and even Nikon and Canon seem somewhat stalled.  Sure there's live view generated 720 to 1080 high def, that require manual focus, shoot some form of camera processed video and though the quality and look can be quite amazing, they are still limited in their use and scope.  

You would think Sony would be way ahead on this, given their experience in video and already have at minimum a cine full frame camera with a serious lens set, that shot a raw file,   Kind of a poor man's RED.

Imagine if their next video camera was compatible to their still lenses, then the game really get's changed and honestly it would be hard to ignore a system, that might require two cameras, but all the other parts, especialy glass were interchangable.

Regardless of video, or where Sony lens line is at the moment, it is very hard to ignore what they have recently done and you just kind of get the feeling that when they are ready they could change everything.

It really depends on how fast, how good, how soon.

BC

  Good points, BC.  I'd certainly like main sensor live view in my A900 for some applications.  I'm a little miffed that the new consumer A550 has a single button main sensor live view that apparently zooms in to 14X, so it would only be one button, then shoot.  Me and a lot of my fellow A900 owners have been hoping for a firmware upgrade in this regard, but I think that window is closing   Regardless, like you've mentioned about your friend, I sold my older Leaf back, went Sony, and haven't looked back.



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Christopher
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« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2009, 02:03:00 PM »
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Quote from: douglasf13
Good points, BC.  I'd certainly like main sensor live view in my A900 for some applications.  I'm a little miffed that the new consumer A550 has a single button main sensor live view that apparently zooms in to 14X, so it would only be one button, then shoot.  Me and a lot of my fellow A900 owners have been hoping for a firmware upgrade in this regard, but I think that window is closing   Regardless, like you've mentioned about your friend, I sold my older Leaf back, went Sony, and haven't looked back.

Well isn't live great. We will see a very soon 7D from canon which, if they really can raise the MP count to 18 and not worsen DR and ISO sensitivity it will be fun to watch what a 1DsMk4 with around 30+ MP will do next year. With current technology they probably could go close to 40Mp, but I would gues they stick more towards 30 to really improve Noise and DR more. Than we will see similar cameras from Nikon and Sony soon after. I mean I like the S2 System, but would I ever buy one if I knew I can have a similar Mp count from a Canon, Nikon or Sony with all modern bells and whistles? Yes there is the argument for lesnes, but than again, if I spent money on the best primes, than they are quite good as well. Leica is not the only company making great lenses.

However back to the topic. I'm really interested in these to different ideas from Canon and Sony. If it is true that the 7D will be a 18Mp 1.6 Cropped Sensor than that would be more or less in the other direction of sony. I prefer Sony's way of bringing FF cameras to us cheaper, but I could understand a lot of wildlife and sports shooter how would love a 7D with 18Mp, 8fps and Prograde AF. (Especially after the 1DMk3 disaster. :-P )

Here a question how good is the AF from a a900 or similar? I mean I have never shot anything moving or wildlife like with the camera.
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thomasmoran
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« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2009, 08:49:22 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Seven years ago the price of entry to 35mm format DLSR was $5,000 for the Kodak 14N (which also offered 13.5MP) and that was obviously over-priced as it was quickly reduced to $4,500 and eventually discounted to $3,500. On the non-digital side, the Sony A850 body is better than the 14N, but far from the class of the 1Ds series, so looking only at 1Ds pricing gives a misleading picture of price trends. It looks to me that prices are down to between 1/3 and 1/2 of what they were then, adjusting for body quality. Meanwhile, prices for mainstream formats are down by a similar but larger proportion: from about $2000 then to under $500 now for the basic models.

And if you want a body of 1Ds quality, the 1DsIII and D3x are not a lot cheaper now than the 1Ds was then; each came to market at that same $8,000. The high end seems stuck in a very low volume, high mark-up sector. And improving quality in the sub-$3000 options will probably make that even more so in the future.

Pixel count trends are fairly similar too: roughly doubling from then to now, though a bit less for 35mm format, a bit more for the smaller SLR formats.

Good point about the 14n. Forgot about that camera. Agree in regards to the high end. I would bet the farm that from now until the earth crashes into the sun canon's highest resolution pro body will stay right around the $7-8 grand mark and that Phase 1 will always have some Uber camera that costs more then most cars. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes the latest technology will always cost a premium its just that now the mid range of the market offers some very serious high quality products and only give up a fraction to the stuff at the high end of the market. Thoughts?

Thomas
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thomasmoran
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« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2009, 08:57:52 PM »
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Quote from: Atlasman
So what is it that makes you fall in love with live view?

Working on a tripod I quickly move the little white box to whatever it is that I want to have be tack sharp, push the zoom button twice, focus and shoot. Its really a dream come true for me. Its like getting to check focus on a ground glass but without a sheet draped over my head. Out of focus shots are never an issue for me now when shooting landscapes.

Thomas
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pegelli
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« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2009, 05:37:11 AM »
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Quote from: jwhee0615
My concern is that every Sony product that I have owned over the years has been crap. It has broken prematurely and they like to charge high flat rates for repair. I wonder if these DSLR's will be of higher quality. I agree that the best for me is to force Canon to get on their game and compete aggressively with Sony.

You must have been really unlucky, never had anything unfortunate like that happen to me with my Sony products. If it was universally true they'd probably be out of business by now, so you're probably the victim of a statistical anomaly.
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pieter, aka pegelli
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« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2009, 03:26:43 PM »
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Quote from: pegelli
... so you're probably the victim of a statistical anomaly.

99% of the discussions on this board a based in statistical anomalies.





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douglasf13
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« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2009, 05:05:04 PM »
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Quote from: K.C.
99% of the discussions on this board a based in statistical anomalies.

   
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Plekto
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« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2009, 10:27:12 PM »
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Quote from: Pelao
Setting aside lens investment, I would find it hard to choose a Canon over a Nikon if I were shopping today. Now Sony have gone and complicated the mix. For my needs their lenses are somewhere between great and incredible. Just one or two small tweaks to their bodies and it will all be good.

The real gem here is that the older Minolta lenses also work great on it.  That gives a serious photographer a massive number of older and inexpensive lenses to add to fill in those gaps.  In fact, it's to find a gap at all if you add in those lenses(other than maybe super-mega-telephotos).

http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/index.asp
That's a lot of lenses.
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pegelli
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« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2009, 12:59:55 AM »
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Quote from: Plekto
In fact, it's to find a gap at all if you add in those lenses(other than maybe super-mega-telephotos).

Well....
Don't forget the old Minolta 600/4, 400/4.5 and 300/4. All pretty stellar lenses that still show up regularly on e-bay and other second hand places.

Today there's already the 300/2.8G as well as 70-400G, the latter had pretty good reviews and can be used wide open. Finally there is the rumoured new 500/4.5, but don't hold your breath for that one, as I will believe it when it's announced (and not a 2 year old mock-up)
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pieter, aka pegelli
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