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Author Topic: Printer Profiles for Epson 9900/7900 with Snow Leopard  (Read 22960 times)
Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 02:48:34 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
The numbers for max deltaE (a few blue patches) above will be lower if I gave the target, which just came out of the printer an hour+ to dry down. But bottom line is, with a 2880 (80 series) and 4800 (00 series), both OSs treat untagged data the same way.

What paper and media setting did you use for this test?
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 02:53:30 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
To clarify:  You assigned Generic RGB for Leopard and sRGB for SL and in both instances the settings were "Printer manages color" in the Photoshop dialogue and "No color management" in the Printer dialogue and the results were identical?

I have never used the Generic RGB and Leopard method and I won't be using the sRGB method with Snow Leopard either. I tried the sRGB and Snow Leopard method just out of curiosity and it visually matched my previous bench marks.
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 02:56:22 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
What paper and media setting did you use for this test?

Premium Luster and the associated luster media setting.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2009, 03:27:34 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Premium Luster and the associated luster media setting.

Could you now possibly have a quick look at the Devices section in ColorSync Utility please? I  am interested to know the default mode/profile that is selected for the printers that you have tested. In my case, with the original Epson ESP7900 driver version 6.38 and Leopard, the default 'Mode' for my ESP7900 was locked to 'Premium Luster Profile Paper 260' and this was set to the factory default profile (in other words, both mode and profile were set to 'Premium Luster Profile Paper 260' profile).

When printing test charts under Leopard with Color Management disabled in Photoshop CS4 and disabled in the printer dialogue box, both Wayne and I have noted that glossy/semi gloss papers did not have a noticeable variation as you have also now reported above. But when Wayne and I tried a matte paper the variation was so dramatic it could be observed by eye when compared to an earlier version of photoshop or even Photoshop CS4 on Windows.

So could you possibly re-run your tests with a matte paper please? For my tests, I have been using Epson Enhanced Matte paper with both the VFA and WPRW media settings. (I think Wayne tried the Enhanced Matte media setting). Please print the test chart in the usual traditional method, colorsync off in Photoshop CS4, and off in the print dialogue box. With the Colorsync Utility most probably locked to its default Premium Luster profile, I would be very interested to know if you then start to see a variation when compared to a test chart produced with say Photoshop CS1 under Leopard and the same print driver. It would be great if you could then run the test a second time but with the ColorSync Utility default "Mode" for your device changed so that it matches the media setting you used for your matter paper. When Wayne and I made this Colorsync Utility change for our matte paper test chart, the result then matched previous versions of Photoshop.

Cheers, Ryan
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2009, 04:43:16 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Could you now possibly have a quick look at the Devices section in ColorSync Utility please? I  am interested to know the default mode/profile that is selected for the printers that you have tested.

For the 2880, the blue dot is set to Radiant White paper and for the 4800, USFAP_MK.icc. Both different of course and both having nothing to do with Luster. And I've never messed with or needed to mess with this area of the innards of the utility.
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2009, 06:41:45 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
For the 2880, the blue dot is set to Radiant White paper and for the 4800, USFAP_MK.icc. Both different of course and both having nothing to do with Luster. And I've never messed with or needed to mess with this area of the innards of the utility.

With my 7900, when printing untagged charts with CM off and the earlier driver, the CU default was always locked to 'Premium Luster Profile Paper 260' and with the later driver version 6.55, the CU default is always locked to sRGB.
So perhaps the particular untagged chart behaviour that Wayne, I have been having is unique to the 7900/9900.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 06:42:31 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2009, 07:43:29 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
With my 7900, when printing untagged charts with CM off and the earlier driver, the CU default was always locked to 'Premium Luster Profile Paper 260' and with the later driver version 6.55, the CU default is always locked to sRGB.
So perhaps the particular untagged chart behaviour that Wayne, I have been having is unique to the 7900/9900.

I don't think it matters.

Best approach I think is to print out a chart in both OSs and measure em, then use something like MeasureTool or ColorThink to plot the deltaE. They should be identical. I don't know of anything Apple did in SN to affect the print path other than fix a bug using Printer manages color and alter the default TRC gamma assumption from the silly old 1.8 to 2.2.
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2009, 07:48:17 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
BTW, assigning sRGB to the target is exactly how Lightroom automatically handles untagged images. If an untagged target is opened and printed with Lightroom set to  Printer Manages Colours and the Print Driver Colour Management set to off then the resulting target is printed correctly under Snow Leopard.

Just noticed this and wanted to point out that while that is correct, you can't use LR to print such targets for profiling as there's no No Color Management option in that app. The RGB numbers need to go directly to the driver which is what NCM should be doing in Photoshop. You could assign sRGB or any working space to the target and at least in Photoshop, with No Color Management, it should print the same as if you used an untagged document. Now Printer Manages Color is a different story. It would be affected by the tag (at least when PMC actually works correctly which is hit or miss depending on the OS, driver and application).
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2009, 07:21:38 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Best approach I think is to print out a chart in both OSs and measure em, then use something like MeasureTool or ColorThink to plot the deltaE. They should be identical. I don't know of anything Apple did in SN to affect the print path other than fix a bug using Printer manages color and alter the default TRC gamma assumption from the silly old 1.8 to 2.2.

I don't need to measure the charts because they are so obviously different - but only with matte papers. The differences occur when printing Epson 7900 test charts with colour management off using either Leopard or Snow Leopard with Photoshop CS4 and the CU 7900 Device Mode at its sRGB default.

I have also just tried the USA version 6.55 7900 driver but unfortunately it gives the same incorrect result as the UK 6.55 driver. The 6.55 drivers are supposed to fix 7900 ABW problems but the driver hasn't fixed the untagged chart problem on the 7900.

Leopard or Snow Leopard with Photoshop CS1 is ok on the 7900. Windows XP and Photoshop CS2 or Photoshop CS4 is ok on the 7900.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 07:23:56 AM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2009, 07:29:42 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Just noticed this and wanted to point out that while that is correct, you can't use LR to print such targets for profiling as there's no No Color Management option in that app. The RGB numbers need to go directly to the driver which is what NCM should be doing in Photoshop. You could assign sRGB or any working space to the target and at least in Photoshop, with No Color Management, it should print the same as if you used an untagged document. Now Printer Manages Color is a different story. It would be affected by the tag (at least when PMC actually works correctly which is hit or miss depending on the OS, driver and application).

Yes, I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea to do this but nonetheless my 7900 test chart prints correctly under Snow Leopard + Lightroom + the Epson 6.55 driver. That is with Lightroom set to Printer Manages Colours and the Print Driver Colour Management set to off.
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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2009, 07:33:06 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Yes, I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea to do this but nonetheless my 7900 test chart prints correctly under Snow Leopard + Lightroom + the Epson 6.55 driver. That is with Lightroom set to Printer Manages Colours and the Print Driver Colour Management set to off.

The problem with this is you end up bypassing ACE, which does good things like black point compensation and choices of rendering intents.
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« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2009, 07:49:10 AM »
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Quote from: abiggs
The problem with this is you end up bypassing ACE, which does good things like black point compensation and choices of rendering intents.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't rely on or recommend this method for printing test charts. However I am rather curious as to what can be interpreted from the sRGB behaviour of Lightroom and Leopard or Snow Leopard when printing untagged test charts. Indeed, the 7900 version 6.55 Mac print driver creates a new default sRGB Mode under the Colorsync Utility which wasn't the case with the previous 7900 driver...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 07:49:41 AM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2009, 08:11:05 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Yes, I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea to do this but nonetheless my 7900 test chart prints correctly under Snow Leopard + Lightroom + the Epson 6.55 driver. That is with Lightroom set to Printer Manages Colours and the Print Driver Colour Management set to off.
But I don't think it is correct because there is a conversion happening to the data sent to the printer using Printer Manages Color. Charts have to be output using a No Color Management path which isn't the case any time in Lightroom or with Printer Manages Color. What software product are you using for the profiles? Something like EyeOne Match will print a TC918 target within its app correctly after which you need to attempt to produce a match using the same driver in Photoshop.
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The problem with this is you end up bypassing ACE, which does good things like black point compensation and choices of rendering intents.
ACE shouldn't really be entering the picture here either. There is a pretty convoluted path once the application passes the RGB data to the driver, but I can't see why ACE would be used with a no color management setting sending that RGB data. The app's that send the data directly like EyeOne Match or ColorMunki don't use ACE AFAIK.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 08:11:48 AM by digitaldog » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2009, 08:29:57 AM »
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Andrew, I was just thinking of normal print operations for a final print, not for the printing of targets.
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Andy Biggs
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2009, 08:37:51 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
I have never used the Generic RGB and Leopard method and I won't be using the sRGB method with Snow Leopard either. I tried the sRGB and Snow Leopard method just out of curiosity and it visually matched my previous bench marks.
What PS working space are you using when you print your profiles?  Even if I don't color manage an untagged chart I find that the working space controls the output (unless I assign a profile).
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2009, 09:35:31 AM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
What PS working space are you using when you print your profiles?  Even if I don't color manage an untagged chart I find that the working space controls the output (unless I assign a profile).

Before I upgraded to Photoshop CS4 on the Mac I had been happily producing profiles by printing the untagged charts with Color Management in both Photoshop and the printer driver turned off. However, I have found that Leopard or Snow Leopard with Photoshop CS4 and the Epson 7900 don't produce the expected test chart result on matte paper so I don't know what is going on in this case...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 09:38:41 AM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 09:50:31 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
But I don't think it is correct because there is a conversion happening to the data sent to the printer using Printer Manages Color. Charts have to be output using a No Color Management path which isn't the case any time in Lightroom or with Printer Manages Color. What software product are you using for the profiles? Something like EyeOne Match will print a TC918 target within its app correctly after which you need to attempt to produce a match using the same driver in Photoshop.

I use an Eye One Pro and i1Match to create my profiles using the TC918 target. Back in January I tried printing a matte TC918 target test chart to my 7900 using i1Match and under Leopard with UK driver version 6.39. The chart was correctly printed. Under the same conditions (Leopard, and 7900 driver 6.39) Photoshop CS1 also gave the correct result. However under the same conditions, Photoshop CS4 did not give the correct result.

I might try the i1Match test again using Snow Leopard and 7900 driver 6.55...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 09:52:21 AM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2009, 10:11:06 AM »
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Quote from: abiggs
Andrew, I was just thinking of normal print operations for a final print, not for the printing of targets.

I have had no problems at all with normal print operations using either Leopard or Snow Leopard and using Photoshop CS4 with the Epson SP 7900.

I have only had problems when using Leopard or Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS4 to print untagged test charts to the 7900.
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2009, 10:13:55 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
I have had no problems at all with normal print operations using either Leopard or Snow Leopard and using Photoshop CS4 with the Epson SP 7900.

I have only had problems when using Leopard or Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS4 to print untagged test charts to the 7900.

Thanks for the clarification, Ryan. I am going to do some testing later on this week to try and nail down where things are going south in my environment. Since I have many printers, hopefully this will be helpful.
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2009, 10:56:14 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Before I upgraded to Photoshop CS4 on the Mac I had been happily producing profiles by printing the untagged charts with Color Management in both Photoshop and the printer driver turned off. However, I have found that Leopard or Snow Leopard with Photoshop CS4 and the Epson 7900 don't produce the expected test chart result on matte paper so I don't know what is going on in this case...
I ran two test prints of charts generated in PM 5.  These are the same untagged charts I have been using for a couple of years for my printers.  

I changed the default paper profile in CU to premium luster photo paper 260 which is the same paper I am printing on and use for media settings in the printer driver (6.55).  Driver is set to color management off and printer is set to no color management.  

I then changed the CU back to the default paper profile of sRGB.  Assigned sRGB profile to the image and set the dialogue to 'Printer manages color'.  Set the printer dialogue of 'No color management'.  

The differences between these two prints are remarkable with the first print being very saturated and in fact mimicking very closely my monitor.

The second print (with the assigned sRGB profile) is very flat (as I would normally expect) and also mimics my monitor.  In both of those instances my working space was set to ProPhoto.

Then I printed a third test print with my PS working space set to sRGB and no color management anywhere in the driver.  That print matched my second print (assigned sRGB Profile) and also mimicked my profiled monitor.  

So I have determined that, for sure, if I set PS to no color management and the printer to no color management the working space determines the final printed output.  That then leads me to believe that a profile must be assigned to an untagged image and that profile must/should match the default profile in CU or that the PS working space must/should match the CU default profile.  Is any of this making sense?
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