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Author Topic: Printer Profiles for Epson 9900/7900 with Snow Leopard  (Read 21666 times)
Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2009, 11:06:08 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
I use an Eye One Pro and i1Match to create my profiles using the TC918 target. Back in January I tried printing a matte TC918 target test chart to my 7900 using i1Match and under Leopard with UK driver version 6.39. The chart was correctly printed. Under the same conditions (Leopard, and 7900 driver 6.39) Photoshop CS1 also gave the correct result. However under the same conditions, Photoshop CS4 did not give the correct result.

I have just tried printing the TC918 chart directly from i1Match again but this time using Snow Leopard and 7900 driver version 6.55.  The print driver Color Matching option was left on its default setting of Epson Color Controls.
The printed result was identical to Windows XP with Photoshop CS2, WIndows XP with Photoshop CS4, Leopard with Photoshop CS1 and Snow Leopard with Photoshop CS1.

However the result is different to the test chart print from Leopard or Snow Leoapard + Photoshop CS4 + 7900 driver 6.39/6.55.
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2009, 11:41:10 AM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Then I printed a third test print with my PS working space set to sRGB and no color management anywhere in the driver.  That print matched my second print (assigned sRGB Profile) and also mimicked my profiled monitor.  

So I have determined that, for sure, if I set PS to no color management and the printer to no color management the working space determines the final printed output.  That then leads me to believe that a profile must be assigned to an untagged image and that profile must/should match the default profile in CU or that the PS working space must/should match the CU default profile.  Is any of this making sense?

As this is something I haven't tried, I have just run two tests with some changes to my default working space (under Edit, Color Settings...)

1. Edit, Color Settings.... Color Management changed to Off.
Opened TC9.18 test chart and printed on matte paper with Photoshop CS4 CM off and print driver version 6.55 CM off. The result was still noticeably wrong and no different to the print that I had produced with my default working space set to ProPhoto.

2. Edit, Color Settings.... default RGB working space set to sRGB.
Opened TC9.18 test chart and printed on matte paper with Photoshop CS4 CM off and print driver version 6.55 CM off. The result was still noticeably wrong and no different to the print that I had produced with my default working space set to ProPhoto.

Note that under Photoshop Edit, Color Settings... I always set Color Management Policies to Preserve Embedded Profiles for RGB, CMYK and Grey. I also select Profile Mismatches: to yes for "Ask When Opening" and "Ask When Pasting"; and I also select Missing Profiles: to yes for "Ask When Opening".

It might be helpful if a common methodology is used to make the tests. Indeed it was only when Wayne precisely followed my test methods back in January that he finally saw what I have been seeing.

Leopard / Snow Leopard
Mac Photoshop CS4
A different version of Photoshop on either Windows or Mac or i1Match for comparison.
Epson 7900/9900
Test chart TC9.18 (a small section of it is enough to see the error)
Matte paper (Wayne and I have been using Epson Enhanced Matte)
Open target with Mac Photoshop CS4 with CM off.
Print with Photoshop CS4 CM off and print driver CM off.
Repeat with a different version of Photoshop or print target with i1Match.
Compare...

Myself, Wayne and others concluded that a version other than Photoshop CS4 is required to correctly print targets under Leopard and 7900 driver 6.39. I am close to reaching the same conclusion with Snow Leopard and 7900 driver 6.55.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:24:31 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2009, 11:59:57 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
As this is something I haven't tried, I have just run two tests with some changes to my default working space (under Edit, Color Settings...)
Not surprising considering the settings here have zero role on output (well other than CMM which is always fixed to ACE in Print).
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Print with Photoshop CS4 CM and driver CM off.

But the printing should be with CS4 using NCM (no color management).
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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2009, 12:04:38 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Not surprising considering the settings here have zero role on output (well other than CMM which is always fixed to ACE in Print).

But the printing should be with CS4 using NCM (no color management).

Indeed, what I meant to say was "Print with Photoshop CS4 CM off and driver CM off.

I have corrected my mis-phrasing in the offending post.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:17:30 PM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2009, 01:02:14 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
As this is something I haven't tried, I have just run two tests with some changes to my default working space (under Edit, Color Settings...)

1. Edit, Color Settings.... Color Management changed to Off.
Opened TC9.18 test chart and printed on matte paper with Photoshop CS4 CM off and print driver version 6.55 CM off. The result was still noticeably wrong and no different to the print that I had produced with my default working space set to ProPhoto.

2. Edit, Color Settings.... default RGB working space set to sRGB.
Opened TC9.18 test chart and printed on matte paper with Photoshop CS4 CM off and print driver version 6.55 CM off. The result was still noticeably wrong and no different to the print that I had produced with my default working space set to ProPhoto.

Note that under Photoshop Edit, Color Settings... I always set Color Management Policies to Preserve Embedded Profiles for RGB, CMYK and Grey. I also select Profile Mismatches: to yes for "Ask When Opening" and "Ask When Pasting"; and I also select Missing Profiles: to yes for "Ask When Opening".

It might be helpful if a common methodology is used to make the tests. Indeed it was only when Wayne precisely followed my test methods back in January that he finally saw what I have been seeing.
Assigning a profile and/or changing the work space to the same profile are one in the same.  My screen chart changes instantly and my color patches measure the same when using Apple Digital Color Meter.  

If an untagged image is brought into PS/CS4 under SL the working space dictates color policies unless a profile is assigned to that image.  So if I want to use CS4 and SL which profile should I assign?  There should be a method in PM 5 for measuring the patches which I should be able to match in PS.  I will find out.
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2009, 01:19:30 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Assigning a profile and/or changing the work space to the same profile are one in the same.  My screen chart changes instantly and my color patches measure the same when using Apple Digital Color Meter.  

If an untagged image is brought into PS/CS4 under SL the working space dictates color policies unless a profile is assigned to that image.  So if I want to use CS4 and SL which profile should I assign?  There should be a method in PM 5 for measuring the patches which I should be able to match in PS.  I will find out.

Altering the assignment doesn't change the numbers a lick. They just have a different definition so Photoshop now provides a new preview based on this. Again, the document can be tagged or not, it doesn't matter. The proper way to be doing all this chart printing is to simply send the existing reference values (in RGB but also known in Lab which is the important set of values here), to the device. The numbers should not be altered in any way, hence Printer Color Management, printing in Lightroom or any app that doesn't have a No Color Management option is out. This is WHY you can then use the profile in Photoshop or any ICC aware application like LR. The key is having a no color management path in the app to send the data to the driver. With the exception of the applications that ship with the targets (like EyeOne Match), the only applciation I know of that can do this is Photoshop using No Color Management.
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2009, 01:56:02 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Again, the document can be tagged or not, it doesn't matter. With the exception of the applications that ship with the targets (like EyeOne Match), the only applciation I know of that can do this is Photoshop using No Color Management.
I don't pretend to know anywhere near as much as you regarding all of this..... just trying to make some sense of this.  If I have a tagged image in PS then PS handles that image according to the tag.  If I have an untagged image in PS then it is assigned either the working space profile or a profile of my choosing with edit color profiles.  If I print a tagged image with color settings off in the driver then what is passed to the driver is the tagged image profile.  If I print an untagged image with color settings off in the driver then the driver is sent the image/chart with my working space profile dictating color.  As I see it there is no way to completely turn off color management.  I am either in a working space which dictates color or I have assigned a profile which dictates color.  The resulting prints are identical as long as the profile  (assigned or working space) are the same.  How do I get to a completely vanilla color space?
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« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2009, 02:09:15 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
I don't pretend to know anywhere near as much as you regarding all of this..... just trying to make some sense of this.  If I have a tagged image in PS then PS handles that image according to the tag.

As it should when you use color management. The idea here is not to use any color management with the NO Color Management option on Print to send the RGB values to the driver to output a chart to build profiles.

The settings in the driver happen after you click Print. That too should be set to No Color Management (No Color Adjustment) in the Epson driver but by the time that happens, Photoshop has left the scene of the crime and it must be sending the Raw RGB values to the driver from the No Color Management setting. You have to have both set.

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I am either in a working space which dictates color or I have assigned a profile which dictates color.  The resulting prints are identical as long as the profile  (assigned or working space) are the same.  How do I get to a completely vanilla color space?

The document is just a pile of RGB values, the tag only gives them a scale and is used when color management is invoked to define a source color space for a conversion. We want no such conversions when printing a target for building a profile. So it doesn't matter what the tag is or even if there is a tag because No Color Management means just that. There's zero question in my mind that when you set Photoshop to No Color Management, you get just that. Its no different in 10.5 than 10.6, I verified that. Doesn't matter if there's matt paper in the printer or not.
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« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2009, 02:22:35 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Its no different in 10.5 than 10.6, I verified that. Doesn't matter if there's matt paper in the printer or not.

Yes I agree that there is no difference between 10.5 and 10.6. Neither works correctly with Photoshop CS4 and the Epson 7900 when printing untagged profile charts onto matte paper.

Photoshop CS1 on 10.5/10.6; Photoshop CS2 on XP; and even Photoshop CS4 on XP produce a different result to Photoshop CS4 on 10.5/10.6 on matte paper when printing with CM off in Photoshop and CM off in the driver to an Epson 7900 regardless of driver version.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 02:27:14 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2009, 02:29:26 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
The document is just a pile of RGB values, the tag only gives them a scale and is used when color management is invoked to define a source color space for a conversion. We want no such conversions when printing a target for building a profile. So it doesn't matter what the tag is or even if there is a tag because No Color Management means just that. There's zero question in my mind that when you set Photoshop to No Color Management, you get just that. Its no different in 10.5 than 10.6, I verified that. Doesn't matter if there's matt paper in the printer or not.
I am in complete agreement!  There are two dialogs that must be addressed.  No color management in the PS dialog and No color management in the printer dialog.  However, my working space has now taken over.  My image is untagged.  No color management in PS and printer driver.  My working space can be set to Prophoto and that will produce a print that is completely different than if my working space is sRGB or something else.  In fact they will all vary from each other.  Why don't you try it?  All color management turned off (you can't turn if off completely in the working space) use an untagged image, Prophoto for the working space and then sRGB for your working space.  If your system is like mine (CS4/MAC_SL/9900/Latest driver) the prints will be very different.  What's correct?  That's all I want to know.  What am I missing?

Edit:  Added SL for correct operating system.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 02:42:31 PM by vjbelle » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2009, 02:34:03 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
When printing test charts under Leopard with Color Management disabled in Photoshop CS4 and disabled in the printer dialogue box, both Wayne and I have noted that glossy/semi gloss papers did not have a noticeable variation as you have also now reported above. But when Wayne and I tried a matte paper the variation was so dramatic it could be observed by eye when compared to an earlier version of photoshop or even Photoshop CS4 on Windows.


Correct.  When printing targets to Epson Premium Luster on both a 3800 and 11880 with Leopard and CS4, targets visually looked very much like targets printed from a different Mac running CS3 and Tiger(10.4).  However if printing targets using MK ink to matt papers, there were obvious visual differences in several patches.  Most colors looked very close, but in some the difference was dramatic ... no need to measure.  Printing from CS2 and Tiger, as well Windows XP all produced visually identical targets to the CS3/10.4 targets.  All targets were printed with CS4 set to no color management, and color management turned off in the printer driver.

Note that while there were obvious differences, the targets visually "appeared" fine ... you wouldn't even realize anything was wrong unless you had a target from a different combination to compare to side by side.

My 7900 exhibited the same behavior when creating a profile for Breathing Color Canvas, which uses matt ink.  I forgot about this issue and the resulting profile was very odd looking.  After reprinting the targets changing the default paper type in the CS utility, the results looked much more normal.  I didn't have a machine with CS3/10.4 to try it on, so I'm still not completely certain even these targets were reliable.  This was still using the previous Epson driver (6.11 I beileve) and Leopard.

I have since switched to Eric Chan's recommendation in this thread for printing targets

I have not tried printing targets since Snow Leopard was released to see how the behavior has changed.
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« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2009, 02:40:04 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
I am in complete agreement!  There are two dialogs that must be addressed.  No color management in the PS dialog and No color management in the printer dialog.  However, my working space has now taken over.  My image is untagged.  No color management in PS and printer driver.  My working space can be set to Prophoto and that will produce a print that is completely different than if my working space is sRGB or something else.  In fact they will all vary from each other.  Why don't you try it?  All color management turned off (you can't turn if off completely in the working space) use an untagged image, Prophoto for the working space and then sRGB for your working space.  If your system is like mine (CS4/MAC/9900/Latest driver) the prints will be very different.  What's correct?  That's all I want to know.  What am I missing?

Embedded image profiles and working spaces are pretty much the same thing. However, Photoshop policies determine what photoshop does to a file when you open a file that is either untagged or has a different profile to your default working space as specified in Color Settings. You can even turn off color management completely under Color Settings... as I stated my previous post.

So why not check your color management policies as follows?

Under Photoshop Edit, Color Settings... set Color Management Policies to Preserve Embedded Profiles for RGB, CMYK and Grey. Also select Profile Mismatches: to yes for "Ask When Opening" and yes "Ask When Pasting"; and also select Missing Profiles: to yes for "Ask When Opening".  If you set your policies this way then whenever you open a file, you will always be in charge of whether to leave the file as it is or to assign a different working space.

The following page may also be useful:

http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/p...king-space.html
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 02:50:24 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2009, 02:49:02 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
I have since switched to Eric Chan's recommendation in this thread for printing targets

I have not tried printing targets since Snow Leopard was released to see how the behavior has changed.

Ah yes, thanks Wayne. Not for the fist time, I had forgotten about that thread but I knew I had seen the method before somewhere! Indeed, this is the basis of Method 1 detailed at the beginning of this thread except Snow Leopard with the Epson 7900 driver 6.55 require the assignment of sRGB instead of Generic RGB.

More recently, Eric made a related and interesting comment on the Apple Colorsync forum:

"Brief summary: The issue is that with OS X, CS4 is using the newer Leopard print APIs (the only print APIs supported under Cocoa), whereas CS3 was using the older print APIs (will not be supported by the OS going forward). The consequence of using the newer print APIs is that the printer drivers must also be compliant with the new print APIs; being compliant with the old print APIs is no longer sufficient.

Moving forward, OS X is taking steps to prevent accidental printing without color management. This makes it unlikely that you can use the standard OS X apps like Preview to print profile targets reliably. Tagging it with Generic RGB will work today, but not tomorrow when Snow Leopard launches (and switches to a default profile of sRGB, not Generic RGB). And tagging the target with sRGB tomorrow may not work for the future (should future versions of OS X switch to another default profile).

BTW, you should avoid printing profile targets from LR. LR does not provide an option to disable color management, which is what you want for printing the targets. (Yes, this is by design.) Yes, there are workarounds, but they will only work in some cases, but not others. Save LR for printing images -- with color management, of course -- once you have your (custom) profile ready."

http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-...g/msg00118.html
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 03:11:13 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2009, 02:53:16 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
My working space can be set to Prophoto and that will produce a print that is completely different than if my working space is sRGB or something else.

Well under Snow Leopard or Leopard, I can't duplicate that. I've also tagged a target with both sRGB and ProPhoto RGB, sent them both though the Print command with NO Color Management to a 2880, they are both identical (as they should be). The tag plays no role because No Color Management in Photoshop’s Print dialog is so set.
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« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2009, 02:53:48 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
I have since switched to Eric Chan's recommendation in this thread for printing targets

I have not tried printing targets since Snow Leopard was released to see how the behavior has changed.

Wayne,

I have also been using Eric's recommendations to print profiles, but, now that I have SL am trying to figure out what is correct.  If you assign Generic RGB and then switch to sRGB you will see a visual change on your monitor.  You will also see a similar change in the final print.  If you don't use Eric's recommendations and completely turn off color management you are then going to be printing profiles that are linked to the profile used in your working space.  Try it!  Eric assigns a profile and at that point it doesn't matter what the working space is - the assigned profile dictates the final print.  
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« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2009, 02:57:18 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Wayne,

I have also been using Eric's recommendations to print profiles, but, now that I have SL am trying to figure out what is correct.  If you assign Generic RGB and then switch to sRGB you will see a visual change on your monitor.  You will also see a similar change in the final print.  If you don't use Eric's recommendations and completely turn off color management you are then going to be printing profiles that are linked to the profile used in your working space.  Try it!  Eric assigns a profile and at that point it doesn't matter what the working space is - the assigned profile dictates the final print.

Don't assign Generic RGB and then switch to sRGB.

Instead, open the untagged chart and assign sRGB directly.
Otherwise, follow Eric's method (that is method 1 on the second post of this thread).
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 03:17:54 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2009, 03:00:24 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Well under Snow Leopard or Leopard, I can't duplicate that. I've also tagged a target with both sRGB and ProPhoto RGB, sent them both though the Print command with NO Color Management to a 2880, they are both identical (as they should be). The tag plays no role because No Color Management in Photoshop’s Print dialog is so set.
Maybe this is a 9900/7900 issue.  I take it that you also must operate under Rosetta for your printer driver.  SL was a completely new install for my system.  All applications were added one at a time as well as drivers.  I try to be very careful but who knows?  What I see on my screen (NEC 2690WUXI2/Spectraview calibrated) is what comes out of my printer regardless of whether or not I have color management on or off.  Very unusual.....
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« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2009, 03:02:50 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Maybe this is a 9900/7900 issue.  I take it that you also must operate under Rosetta for your printer driver.  SL was a completely new install for my system.  All applications were added one at a time as well as drivers.  I try to be very careful but who knows?  What I see on my screen (NEC 2690WUXI2/Spectraview calibrated) is what comes out of my printer regardless of whether or not I have color management on or off.  Very unusual.....

Maybe. It would be odd that a newer printer like this would suffer the issue. The 2880 and 4800 don't and they represent a pretty decent difference in age in terms of driver releases. I'm still waiting on a 3880 driver for Snow Leopard but I suspect it will behave properly too.
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« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2009, 03:04:14 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Maybe this is a 9900/7900 issue.  I take it that you also must operate under Rosetta for your printer driver.  SL was a completely new install for my system.  All applications were added one at a time as well as drivers.  I try to be very careful but who knows?  What I see on my screen (NEC 2690WUXI2/Spectraview calibrated) is what comes out of my printer regardless of whether or not I have color management on or off.  Very unusual.....

Yes I think it seems reasonable to conclude that this particular issue relates to the 7900/9900.

The Epson 7900 version 6.55 driver is apparently Snow Leopard compatible and only needs Rosetta because the current Vise installer is not Snow Leopard compatible. This will be corrected at some point.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 03:16:42 PM by Ionaca » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2009, 03:25:54 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Maybe this is a 9900/7900 issue.  I take it that you also must operate under Rosetta for your printer driver.  SL was a completely new install for my system.  All applications were added one at a time as well as drivers.  I try to be very careful but who knows?  What I see on my screen (NEC 2690WUXI2/Spectraview calibrated) is what comes out of my printer regardless of whether or not I have color management on or off.  Very unusual.....

Sort of correct. It turns out it is only the installation application that needs Rosetta, not the actual driver itself....
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