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Author Topic: Printer Profiles for Epson 9900/7900 with Snow Leopard  (Read 23027 times)
vjbelle
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« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2009, 03:50:17 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Maybe. It would be odd that a newer printer like this would suffer the issue. The 2880 and 4800 don't and they represent a pretty decent difference in age in terms of driver releases. I'm still waiting on a 3880 driver for Snow Leopard but I suspect it will behave properly too.
Would you be so kind as to confirm......... when you are looking at an untagged chart in PS and your working space is Prophoto and then you switch your working space to sRGB - or vice versa - does you screen image change?  Mine does..... dramatically!  If so then the working space dictates how an untagged image is displayed in PS.  In my environment it also dictates what gets sent to the printer...... my driver (even though it is set to off) passes through the profile used in my working space.
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vjbelle
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« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2009, 03:52:00 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Under Photoshop Edit, Color Settings... set Color Management Policies to Preserve Embedded Profiles for RGB, CMYK and Grey. Also select Profile Mismatches: to yes for "Ask When Opening" and yes "Ask When Pasting"; and also select Missing Profiles: to yes for "Ask When Opening".  If you set your policies this way then whenever you open a file, you will always be in charge of whether to leave the file as it is or to assign a different working space.

This is the exact Color management policies that I use.
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vjbelle
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« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2009, 03:55:34 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Don't assign Generic RGB and then switch to sRGB.

Instead, open the untagged chart and assign sRGB directly.
Otherwise, follow Eric's method (that is method 1 on the second post of this thread).

Yes...... I think this is the correct - assign sRGB to the untagged image and turn off all color management - at least it is how I'm going to generate my profiles.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2009, 04:07:31 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
This is the exact Color management policies that I use.
Ok, so if you use method 1, you open the untagged chart and when prompted you assign sRGB. In this case you are choosing not to use the  default working space and instead you are using sRGB as your working space. Then follow Eric's method as normal.

In method 2, you open the untagged chart and when prompted you select Leave as is (don't color manage). The default working space is irrelevant and has no effect with the rest of this method for printing charts (as I confirmed with some tests earlier today). Don't make any other changes to the chart or profiles/working space and just print it. In the Photoshop print dialogue, select CM off. In the printer driver, select CM off. The only extra thing you need to do before you print the chart is to make sure that the CU Utility 7900 sRGB Device Mode is changed from sRGB to the appropriate profile so as to match the media setting you will be using when printing the test chart. This method has worked every time for me whether Leopard or Snow Leopard or 7900 driver 6.39 or 6.55.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 04:20:06 PM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
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« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2009, 04:07:31 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Would you be so kind as to confirm......... when you are looking at an untagged chart in PS and your working space is Prophoto and then you switch your working space to sRGB - or vice versa - does you screen image change?  Mine does..... dramatically!  If so then the working space dictates how an untagged image is displayed in PS.  In my environment it also dictates what gets sent to the printer...... my driver (even though it is set to off) passes through the profile used in my working space.

Yes, I said so and why above. The NUMBERS do not change, only the definition of the numbers, hence the preview changes. R0/G255/B0 is a different appearing color in sRGB versus ProPhoto RGB. When you tell Photoshop what the scale of the numbers belong to, the numbers remain the same but the color changes as this defines a different color in the two color spaces. Its just like the difference between 500 miles and 500 kilometers is different even though the numbers are the same. So Assign profile (or as you're doing, updating the working space in color settings which assigns that profile to untagged documents) changes the color appearance not the color values. Sending the same values to a driver, without color management is, well sending the same values to the driver.
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Andrew Rodney
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2009, 04:13:10 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Yes...... I think this is the correct - assign sRGB to the untagged image and turn off all color management - at least it is how I'm going to generate my profiles.
Ok, it would be great if you can somehow visually compare the color chart results with a version of Photoshop other than Mac CS4 or print directly from i1Match (or even print a TC918 chart directly from PM5 if that is possible?) I found it very handy to have a known working benchmark to compare results.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 04:18:37 PM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
vjbelle
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« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2009, 05:09:56 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Ok, it would be great if you can somehow visually compare the color chart results with a version of Photoshop other than Mac CS4 or print directly from i1Match (or even print a TC918 chart directly from PM5 if that is possible?) I found it very handy to have a known working benchmark to compare results.
Observations:

1.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space Prophoto.  Image assigned sRGB.  No color management anywhere.  

2.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space sRGB.  Image left untagged.  No color management anywhere.  

3.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space Prophoto.  Image assigned sRGB.  Printer manages color.  No color management in the printer driver.  

4.  Untagged chart image.  CU default PLPP 260 (my same media setting).  Working space Prophoto.  Image left untagged. No color management anywhere.

Charts 1 - 3 looked visually the same.  Chart 4 was obviously different with much more saturation (this also matched my monitor).  Delta readings from my i one pro into PM 5 showed a maximum delta of 2 in the Blues - some readings were as close as delta .1 for the first three instances.  Delta readings for number 4 as compared to any of the first three instances were as high as 13 and averaged around 11.

Just observations…… trying to find out what is right.  

So far this is 40 inches of 24 inch roll paper but whats paper and ink for anyway?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 05:11:25 PM by vjbelle » Logged
vjbelle
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« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2009, 05:15:32 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Ok, it would be great if you can somehow visually compare the color chart results with a version of Photoshop other than Mac CS4 or print directly from i1Match (or even print a TC918 chart directly from PM5 if that is possible?) I found it very handy to have a known working benchmark to compare results.
All of my charts are generated from PM5 if this helps.  I'm going to assume that anything generated in PM5 is fairly accurate.  I can always send you or anyone else one of my generated charts or a standard chart from PM5.  I don't think that really matters....... this is all a SL and PS and Epson problem that can be worked around.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2009, 05:43:35 PM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
Observations:

1.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space Prophoto.  Image assigned sRGB.  No color management anywhere.  

2.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space sRGB.  Image left untagged.  No color management anywhere.  

3.  Untagged chart image.  CU default sRGB for 9900 printer.  Working space Prophoto.  Image assigned sRGB.  Printer manages color.  No color management in the printer driver.  

4.  Untagged chart image.  CU default PLPP 260 (my same media setting).  Working space Prophoto.  Image left untagged. No color management anywhere.

Charts 1 - 3 looked visually the same.  Chart 4 was obviously different with much more saturation (this also matched my monitor).  Delta readings from my i one pro into PM 5 showed a maximum delta of 2 in the Blues - some readings were as close as delta .1 for the first three instances.  Delta readings for number 4 as compared to any of the first three instances were as high as 13 and averaged around 11.

Based on my tests, I would have expected chart 3 (method 1) and 4 (method 2) to be the same irrespective of how close they may or may not be to your monitor. As they are different, it is hard to conclude which is right. I still think you need a known correct chart printed from a different version of Photoshop all else being the same. This was the only way I was able to determine which chart worked correctly under Snow Leopard. In any case I have decided to stick with using Photoshop CS1 for printing charts under Snow Leopard as it still gives the same result as my known correct benchmarks using the traditional settings. If you have access to Windows XP then you could download the 30 day trial of the Windows version of Photoshop CS4. I tested this combination back in January and the untagged chart printed correctly. This could be one way for you to get a bench mark result. However, if you only have access to a Mac with Leopard/Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS4 then you could spend even more time, ink and paper and still not be totally sure if you have the correct result for your 7900/9900.

By the way, to keep my time and costs down I use just one strip of patches from an i1Match TC918 chart (B7 to B17) rather than the whole chart. This way I have been able to get about ten tests on one A4 sheet of paper and this has been sufficient to visually make a comparison. It doesn't matter which patches are used for the strip as long as there is a broad selection of colors, the strip is saved as an untagged tif and the same strip is used every time for testing. If one particular combination of settings produces a test strip that looks exactly right when compared with a benchmark strip, then a full test chart can be printed, visually compared and even measured so as to be doubly sure.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 03:43:11 AM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
vjbelle
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« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2009, 08:00:26 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
Based on my tests, I would have expected chart 3 (method 1) and 4 (method 2) to be the same irrespective of how close they may or may not be to your monitor. As they are different, it is hard to conclude which is right. I still think you need a known correct chart printed from a different version of Photoshop all else being the same. This was the only way I was able to determine which chart worked correctly under Snow Leopard. In any case I have decided to stick with using Photoshop CS1 for printing charts under Snow Leopard as it still gives the same result as my known correct benchmarks using the traditional settings. If you have access to Windows XP then you could download the 30 day trial of the Windows version of Photoshop CS4. I tested this combination back in January and the untagged chart printed correctly. This could be one way for you to get a bench mark result. However, if you only have access to a Mac with Leopard/Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS4 then you could spend even more time, ink and paper and still not be totally sure if you have the correct result for your 7900/9900.

By the way, to keep my time and costs down I use just one strip of patches from an i1Match TC918 chart (B7 to B17) rather than the whole chart. This way I have been able to get about ten tests on one A4 sheet of paper and this has been sufficient to visually make a comparison. It doesn't matter which patches are used for the strip as long as there is a broad selection of colors, the strip is saved as an untagged tif and the same strip is used every time for testing. If one particular combination of settings produces a test strip that looks exactly right when compared with a benchmark strip, then a full test chart can be printed, visually compared and even measured so as to be doubly sure.
There is a minimum length that a 9900 wants to see for correct/any printing.  Its near 10 inches so I use that as my minimum.  This chart was generated by me in PM5 and has 2380 patches consisting of 5 separate charts and to print it in its entirety takes 33 inches of a 24 inch roll.  After all of this trial and error/paper and ink I have started to use the profiles supplied by Epson.  I am very surprised to find them to be visually extremely accurate.  More so than anything I have generated.  This also holds true for the profiles supplied by Hahnemuhle for fine art Baryta.  Maybe the days of this mandatory profiling are over.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:13:45 AM by vjbelle » Logged
Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2009, 03:47:02 AM »
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Quote from: vjbelle
There is a minimum length that a 9900 wants to see for correct/any printing.  Its near 10 inches so I use that as my minimum.  This chart was generated by me in PM5 and has 2380 patches consisting of 5 separate charts and to print it in its entirety takes 33 inches of a 24 inch roll.  After all of this trial and error/paper and ink I have started to use the profiles supplied by Epson.  I am very surprised to find them to be visually extremely accurate.  More so than anything I have generated.  This also holds true for the profiles supplied by Hahnemuhle for fine art Baryta.  Maybe the days of this mandatory profiling are over.

Indeed, I quickly gave up trying to produce custom profiles for my Z3200 as I have found that the canned profiles from HP and third parties are so good for this printer.

Some time ago I made a custom 7900 profile for Hahnemuehle PhotoRag Ultrasmooth paper using a Bill Atkinson 5202 chart and i1Match. I have just downloaded the Hahnemuehle profile for this paper from their web site and their profile appeared almost identical to my Logo Colorful profile when I made a casual comparison with the Colorsync Utility. (Perhaps they are using i1Match or PM5). In fact the Hahnemuehle profile has a slightly larger volume in CU than my profile. I may use Photoshop soft proofing to  make further comparions with one or two images and if their profile seems noticeably better then I may switch. On the other hand, their profile gives me no choice for Perceptual rendering. I have produced three i1Match 7900 profiles for Hahnemuehle PhotoRag Ultrasmooth paper, Logo Colorful, Logo Chroma and Logo Classic. I normally use Relative Colorimetric rendering on the 7900 so in this case it doesn't make any difference which of my profiles I use. However it is nice to have some choice just in case I decide to use Perceptual rendering for a particular image.

As almost all of my printing on the 7900 is with Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultrasmooth and I am happily using the Z3200 with canned profiles for any any other printing my i1 Pro tends to be used just for monitor calibration these days.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 04:08:22 AM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
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