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Author Topic: Sinar trades under the name "Sinar Photography" as of October  (Read 12200 times)
PeterA
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 05:31:23 PM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
Peter,

may be you don't know it by now, but any back "Hasselblad V" mount can fit the arTec since quite a while now, and other mounts are planed and to come.

Best regards,
Thierry


Hi Thierry,

Yes I understand that different mounts are being made - however, my point is that instead of fixed mounts ie specific to each brand- better would have been an adapter system -ala Alpa so that as a person changed from one back type to another they could just buy an adapter. eg I have two different adaptors for my Alpa gear. Why am I concerned? The arTec is a great piece of equipment that will OUTLAST any specific camera back manufacturer. My business is hedge Fund management - I like to have unpriced risk 'covered' -covering risk and providing flexibility is a high value added attribute from a potential purchaser's point of view- especially given what has occurred in the industry over the last year or so.

Hope you and your family are well.


Keith -

My point about rental palces isnt that they dont have a place in the world - it is that relying on making sales to rental studios or having a rental studio general avaliability everywhere is a very high cost business for the camera manufacturer ( service costs because equipment gets smashed) - much easier to just develop a business model around selling to the type of people despised by pro-photographers on Luminous Landscape - ie people that can afford to buy the best stuff because they like to.
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TMARK
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 10:31:17 PM »
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Quote from: PeterA
Keith -

My point about rental places isn't that they don't have a place in the world - it is that relying on making sales to rental studios or having a rental studio general availability everywhere is a very high cost business for the camera manufacturer ( service costs because equipment gets smashed) - much easier to just develop a business model around selling to the type of people despised by pro-photographers on Luminous Landscape - ie people that can afford to buy the best stuff because they like to.

Stocking rental doesn't cost the makers anything.  The studios/rental houses lease them and have insurance, so if the gear is damaged insurance picks up the repair.  The rental houses lease them.  





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PeterA
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 11:46:14 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Stocking rental doesn't cost the makers anything.  The studios/rental houses lease them and have insurance, so if the gear is damaged insurance picks up the repair.  The rental houses lease them.


A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..

Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.




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bcooter
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 12:13:52 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
My business is hedge Fund management - I like to have unpriced risk 'covered' -

AIG?



BC
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 01:27:45 AM by bcooter » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 01:39:05 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..

Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.

Peter I'm not sure you are seeing the big rental picture for the manufacturers (lighting, computers, monitors, backs, bodies, lenses, accessories etc.).

In general, a rental house/ studio will try to stay at the forefront, at least with backs, computers and peripherals (tablets, storage etc.), so it'll buy new kit every time there's a new model out

It will buy more than One at a time and often with spares and accessories

Through renting equipment, some photographers realise that for their business, it is better/ wiser to buy it

A rental house works with techs, assistants, retouchers, ADs and if they constantly see a P45+ or an Aptus 75S on set that works well, they will look for it/ recommend it/ demand it for the next shoot, from the next rental place

This creates an on-going PR and an on-going demand.

Regarding service etc. Rental backs, in general, do not require more service than those who sit in someone's glass cabinet. They are not bodies or lenses that need new shutters every XXXXX frames. The rental house may need a bit more support and a quick turnaround but this works both ways as the manufacturers benefit from valuable feedback and if the back and software do a good job then that's "free" marketing and the best one at that.

If someone drops a back and breaks it, then that's a chargeable repair - more income.

And of course if the rental place is a successful one, then the investment covers itself fairly quickly, regardless of costs of insurance, leasing etc.

Yair
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PeterA
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2009, 06:56:53 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
AIG?



BC


just add hedge hogs to your list of amateur/dentist/lawyers and investment bankers and dont sweat it ....

YAYA

everything you say is true about teh best rental /studio/gear places - it just isnt Leica's market. I don't have an opinion about the S2's chances of success it has much tougher competition than the M9....the M9 is competing against nothing in its space..

anyway good luck to both Sinar and Leica - they both make fantastic stuff...

Pete
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bcooter
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2009, 11:07:14 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
just add hedge hogs to your list of amateur/dentist/lawyers and investment bankers and dont sweat it ....

No photographer sweats what someone in a different profession earns, can buy or does.  

Photography isn't our job, it's our life so quite honestly as myopic as this may sound a working professional photographer doesn't really care what a non professional photographer does to afford an expensive camera they carry to a country club, any more than we care that a Bentley can't be used as a grip truck.

For commerce we care that we can guarantee the shot and that means easily available backups and options (which means rentals).  For art we care that a camera doesn't restrain us and that covers a lot of territory.

But make no mistake.  The top photographers in our industry are more than capable of writing a check for the a complete HY6 system or that Leica S camera, but before they do, they need a reason and in regards to the HY6 I really didn't see that spending $50,000 was going to make any difference in the final image and now feel somewhat the same about the new Leica S.

I also didn't see that buying into a new system that isn't  complete makes sense, not in the business climate we are in today.  

Yair pointed it out as well as anyone the benefit of rentals to a maker and  an end user.  Acceptance in rentals means the camera is now one of the standards.   If you can call fotocare, Samy's,  Matphot and pick up a backup body or  lens at any time for a project and they have an ample supply you know that it's a commercially viable product.  

To put it in Hedge Fund speak,  this means that photographers are also adverse to monetary risk and needless overhead.

To put it in professional photographer speak, we really don't give a damn what non photographers use or do for a living.

BC
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Khun_K
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2009, 01:56:28 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
No photographer sweats what someone in a different profession earns, can buy or does.  

Photography isn't our job, it's our life so quite honestly as myopic as this may sound a working professional photographer doesn't really care what a non professional photographer does to afford an expensive camera they carry to a country club, any more than we care that a Bentley can't be used as a grip truck.

For commerce we care that we can guarantee the shot and that means easily available backups and options (which means rentals).  For art we care that a camera doesn't restrain us and that covers a lot of territory.

But make no mistake.  The top photographers in our industry are more than capable of writing a check for the a complete HY6 system or that Leica S camera, but before they do, they need a reason and in regards to the HY6 I really didn't see that spending $50,000 was going to make any difference in the final image and now feel somewhat the same about the new Leica S.

I also didn't see that buying into a new system that isn't  complete makes sense, not in the business climate we are in today.  

Yair pointed it out as well as anyone the benefit of rentals to a maker and  an end user.  Acceptance in rentals means the camera is now one of the standards.   If you can call fotocare, Samy's,  Matphot and pick up a backup body or  lens at any time for a project and they have an ample supply you know that it's a commercially viable product.  

To put it in Hedge Fund speak,  this means that photographers are also adverse to monetary risk and needless overhead.

To put it in professional photographer speak, we really don't give a damn what non photographers use or do for a living.

BC
Everyone has his point made correctly in one way or another. To me, I think professional camera is not designed for professionals, it is designed and developed for people who wants professional results, who want fine machined tools, who want reliable equipment, who want something to make him smile, and he does not need to live on photography, but he can still enjoy photography.  Company like Sinar, or for the matter of many other company, produce special equipment with lots of functions and abilities that few consumer (include some seasoned professionals) ever explore its full potential. There is no shame professional photography cannot afford the latest tool and it is nothing wrong a dentist to buy a fine camera to make his day.  
As long as a photographer is comfortable with his tools, happy with the result, then the camera company did their job.  How success one company can be is not only just product, marketing, sales, it can be many different reasons.  Sinar made and continue to make good product, but unfortunately not every time you get return on your best effort. Take Hy6 or Leaf AFi as an example, there are many arguments, analysis, studies, whatsoever it is, there are many comments made by people never use it and it is puzzle why those comments are more important to those who actually use it and happy with it.  Contax 645 was a camera long discontinued, yet it is still perceive by many the best medium format camera made, I don't see Hy6 or AFi less capable, in fact may be the best medium format camera developed in recent years, the fact it eventually become discontinue does not mean it is a bad system, or the camera company who supports are not doing its job.  
In a bad economic, in a cloudy medium format camera environment, we should encourage the company believe in itself, Sinar for example, decide to move forward rather than set aside. More user, regardless who they are, only makes the camera business better, and eventually benefit the consumer, regardless who they are.

Regards, K
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 01:57:48 PM by Khun_K » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 11:49:47 PM »
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Quote from: PeterA
A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..

Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.

Mr. Bidneth-man you are not making sense.  Are you trying to say that Leica will make less if they sell 20 S2's to Calumet for rental, as opposed to selling 20 S2's at the next Bang-Your-Hygenist-in-Vegas-Endodontist-Pussy-Palooza-Convention?  Because you say the rental units will need "more support" because they will be abused rather than serving as a fetish object?  If an S2 is smashed, dropped in salt water, etc, that is an insurance issue, not warranty.  

I don't care how anyone makes money, hell, half of the pro togs I know have bad taste.  I admire anyone who isn't a dilitante or a douchebag, even if they happen to be finance guys running Tremont or one of the Rye Select funds.

Edited to add:  I see YaYa set it straight.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 11:50:37 PM by TMARK » Logged
PeterA
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2009, 12:46:46 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Mr. Bidneth-man you are not making sense.  Are you trying to say that Leica will make less if they sell 20 S2's to Calumet for rental, as opposed to selling 20 S2's at the next Bang-Your-Hygenist-in-Vegas-Endodontist-Pussy-Palooza-Convention?  Because you say the rental units will need "more support" because they will be abused rather than serving as a fetish object?  If an S2 is smashed, dropped in salt water, etc, that is an insurance issue, not warranty.  

I don't care how anyone makes money, hell, half of the pro togs I know have bad taste.  I admire anyone who isn't a dilitante or a douchebag, even if they happen to be finance guys running Tremont or one of the Rye Select funds.

Edited to add:  I see YaYa set it straight.

My  point is that Leica will make much easier dollars selling to well heeled buyers . It isnt a new idea - most of the best made stuff cant be made at a price to suit everyone by definition.  I think that they have figured this out - which makes me happy - because I like their stuff.
 
The only reason I mentioned what I do for a living was in the context of risk management - re Sinars artec it was a specific point about a specific issue I hope Sinar will address - I dont really care what you or your "sweat the details ,I dont care about non photographers thing buddy thinks/says/utters/blathers or opines about - I am just well mannered enough to respond - sans bile and frothing of the mouth gnashing of teeth and other accouterments of the aggressive personality.

Hope this clears things up for you - I know some of you guys are rather slow - it comes with the territory I guess being woop arsed "pro shooters" an all..

Cheers.
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TMARK
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2009, 02:23:33 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
My  point is that Leica will make much easier dollars selling to well heeled buyers . It isnt a new idea - most of the best made stuff cant be made at a price to suit everyone by definition.  I think that they have figured this out - which makes me happy - because I like their stuff.
 
The only reason I mentioned what I do for a living was in the context of risk management - re Sinars artec it was a specific point about a specific issue I hope Sinar will address - I dont really care what you or your "sweat the details ,I dont care about non photographers thing buddy thinks/says/utters/blathers or opines about - I am just well mannered enough to respond - sans bile and frothing of the mouth gnashing of teeth and other accouterments of the aggressive personality.

Hope this clears things up for you - I know some of you guys are rather slow - it comes with the territory I guess being woop arsed "pro shooters" an all..

Cheers.

You seem so agro, and not "well mannered" at all.  I know this isn't what passes for "well mannered" in the Commonwealth countries, so why the charade?

Let me set you straight: I'm responding to some inane line of unreasoned and sub par reasoning you laid out regarding sales to rental houses, which you do not (or did not) understand, and your arrogant attitude regarding brother Cooter's opinion.  You respond by calling me slow.  Really?  I'm Slow?  When you can't understand the rental business? Really?  Because I'm slow. Really.  I'll rewind, and say it again:  You made a stupid, ignorant, illinformed, attitude laden comment.  I responded, pointing out why you were WRONG.  You respond by telling me that I'm slow.   Are you sure you are running a Hedge fund and not a Ponzi? Tremont Capital?  Because with your skills at attempting to shift a focus from your stupidity to mine, when all I did was point out, again, how stupid your comment was, well, that is the kind of skill that Bernie had.  In spades.  That is a sign of the "aggressive personality", as you so daintily put it, or a sociopath.  And by "dainty", I mean you're a Big Cooter.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 02:34:10 AM by TMARK » Logged
PeterA
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« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2009, 09:44:29 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
You seem so agro, and not "well mannered" at all.  I know this isn't what passes for "well mannered" in the Commonwealth countries, so why the charade?

Let me set you straight: I'm responding to some inane line of unreasoned and sub par reasoning you laid out regarding sales to rental houses, which you do not (or did not) understand, and your arrogant attitude regarding brother Cooter's opinion.  You respond by calling me slow.  Really?  I'm Slow?  When you can't understand the rental business? Really?  Because I'm slow. Really.  I'll rewind, and say it again:  You made a stupid, ignorant, illinformed, attitude laden comment.  I responded, pointing out why you were WRONG.  You respond by telling me that I'm slow.   Are you sure you are running a Hedge fund and not a Ponzi? Tremont Capital?  Because with your skills at attempting to shift a focus from your stupidity to mine, when all I did was point out, again, how stupid your comment was, well, that is the kind of skill that Bernie had.  In spades.  That is a sign of the "aggressive personality", as you so daintily put it, or a sociopath.  And by "dainty", I mean you're a Big Cooter.

I will leave you to your ranting...

Clearly Leica and Sinar should base their marketing and busienss strategy on ensuring enough rental houses carry their gear in case some hard working passionate artiste type who sweats the details but sometimes needs an emergency this or that can be helped out anywhere any time.
Or
they can sell as much of their stuff to to rental houses as they already do - but also perhaps think about targeting non professional sweat the detail passionate artistes etc - who just want to have fun.
These types of buyer just want stuff that works well enough to make a pretty landscape or architectural shot or even family snap.
Even more important to these types of buyer  is the look and feel of the gear. Leica has always attracted the type of person who gets a kick out of holding their gear and using stuff of obvious quality - no matter that in the main they use the gear to make family snaps . Some people graduate from the occasional macro shot of a pretty flower to using technical cameras to make even prettier- flower shots. There is no telling what silly things people do with their cameras for fun and it doesnt matter.

Reading this forum following the S2 annoucenment - the number one criticism of the camera was that it was too expensive. I think this is a very strange thing to hear from so called professionals - too expensive. But I guess that that is true - I mean how many megapixels does one need to make a pic that fits into the same sized magazine spread that was aorund 30 years ago...not many...

another frequently discussed point is the growing importance of video and still becoming a secondary issue in advertising - this just underliens a smaller rather than larger market size for all the sweating professionals who sweat the details etc etc etc..

So in summary terms - I think leica is spot on with their approach to say that their market is for those who appreciate teh quality of their goods - and can afford their prices. Sinar cant do any worse by targeting the well heeled amateur - they like all companies broaden teh definition of their market.

too many posters in this forum too often summarize the amateur shooter as being  dentist/lawyer/investment banker silly enough to buy this or that over the top expensive item - which should be the domain of professional shooters only - of course this is a ridiculous notion.

So again I say who cares what the so called pro shooter says- I care more about what the amateur shooter who really shoots for the love of photography thinks - and I am looking to buy gear from companies who give me the best service and products for my shooting needs .

You can now respond with another rant if you like..apparently rudeness has currency among some of you sweat the details artists.







 

















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« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2009, 01:05:25 PM »
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If one doesn't understand how pro rental works, that's fine, but leave it alone and don't dig in deeper.

Leica is marketing this camera as being for the professional. There is some cache in this, otherwise why would they market it so? In reality very few pros use Leica's, even in the upper echelons. Very few will use the S2. If Leica does not get S2's into rental, even fewer pros will use them. How long can Leica maintain this mystique of being a "pro" camera if pros don't use them? Will the non-pros who can afford them continue wanting them?

Yes, the S2 is too expensive for almost every working professional. It is unnecessary. This is not hard to understand.

As far as I'm aware Leica built a reputation a long time ago not as a fetish object but as a tool with a purpose for pro photojournalists.

Sinar was the main view camera system (at least in USA) among pros mainly because it was ubiquitous. Every rental place carried it. Not that I specifically looked but I can't remember ever seeing any piece of Leica equipment available for rental in any of the major markets. Hasselblad is everywhere and pros use/rent them, either by choice or convenience. The reality though is most use Canon now.

Seeing the recent trends I wonder how long it will be before the "pro" photographer is a thing of the past and photography returns to its roots - rich dilettantes and hobbyists shooting landscapes and friends. The emulation of the pro and the conceit of selling those prints fading eventually as well ...
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2009, 09:34:03 PM »
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Going back to Sinar for a moment....  I remember reading somewhere that they had enough inventory of Hy6 cameras for a year's worth of sales.   I have no idea how many cameras that is but what's going to happen to them now and did they ever release the version that did the in camera DNG processing?  If those are being sold off somewhere at big discounts, I'd like to know!



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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2009, 10:07:42 PM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Going back to Sinar for a moment....  I remember reading somewhere that they had enough inventory of Hy6 cameras for a year's worth of sales.   I have no idea how many cameras that is but what's going to happen to them now and did they ever release the version that did the in camera DNG processing?  If those are being sold off somewhere at big discounts, I'd like to know!

As far as I understand it the in-camera processing of DNG's is actually in-back processing in the Sinar eSprit 65 back. This back can also be put on other cameras, not just the Hy6. That back is still listed for sale on my local distributor's website, with or without a Hy6 bundle. It's a very tempting back because of the 'DSLR' quality screen, low price and in-back DNG creation. But it uses microlenses, so wasn't for me because I sometimes use a tech camera.

Ben
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PHOTO ZARA
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2009, 10:46:45 PM »
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 this is Sinars very nice looking digital back and I personally like it better than Phase, Leaf or Hassy


-> http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html


all I can say is shame they couldn't survive to provide the sales support

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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2009, 10:55:51 PM »
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Quote from: PHOTO ZARA
this is Sinars very nice looking digital back and I personally like it better than Phase, Leaf or Hassy


-> http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html


all I can say is shame they couldn't survive to provide the sales support

What do you mean? They're still alive and well - I got support from them just last week. You can buy any of their products today as far as I know, and they are working on software improvements now and who knows what else in the future. To me the future looks good for Sinar and all users of their gear. I can't see any reason to not buy this back if it suits you.

Ben
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PHOTO ZARA
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2009, 11:05:05 PM »
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Quote from: bdp
What do you mean? They're still alive and well - I got support from them just last week. You can buy any of their products today as far as I know, and they are working on software improvements now and who knows what else in the future. To me the future looks good for Sinar and all users of their gear. I can't see any reason to not buy this back if it suits you.

Ben

are you saying they're planing to continue to further develop DBs because I don't think I am the only one who read that they are focusing on specialty cameras only!

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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2009, 11:12:28 PM »
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Quote from: PHOTO ZARA
are you saying they're planing to continue to further develop DBs because I don't think I am the only one who read that they are focusing on specialty cameras only!

Perhaps not - Until there is a press release in English I don't know. The google translation of the Photoscala article was a bit dodgy. There was this translated line: "Sinar, Jenoptik AG wants to continue serving with Digital Photography One-and multi-shot backs." But it did say before that that they wanted to focus on  analog and digital camera systems.

I was mainly reacting to your comment about 'they couldn't survive' like they had gone out of business.

But anyway I would think they would support past products they have sold, so I wouldn't be concerned about support if I bought the eSprit back.

Ben
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:16:09 PM by bdp » Logged
PHOTO ZARA
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2009, 11:38:51 PM »
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Quote from: bdp
I was mainly reacting to your comment about 'they couldn't survive' like they had gone out of business.

my post is obviously referred to the associated link I posted (digital backs) not specialty cameras or Sinar in general

anyways no hard feelings I just thought Sinarback eSprit 65 LV is the best designed DB I've seen so far
and I thought why stop making it!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:40:20 PM by PHOTO ZARA » Logged
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