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Author Topic: Sinar trades under the name "Sinar Photography" as of October  (Read 12036 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2009, 09:36:54 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
So again I say who cares what the so called pro shooter says-


Your might be right, but let's talk about things you know about.

What kind of calculator do you use?

BC
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JSK
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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2009, 10:56:07 AM »
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Good news for current and future Sinar owners here

but this time since their primary goal is making cameras

they should let Phase 1 attach to all of their Cameras including Sinar Hy6

and simply start making money.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 11:02:19 AM by JSK » Logged

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BJL
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2009, 12:51:09 PM »
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Quote from: JSK
Good news for current and future Sinar owners here
One quote from the press release quoted at http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091505...photography.asp

"The continuation of the Hy6 medium-format camera is currently under negotiation, but the existing business alliance guarantees long-term technical support."

Maybe the new manufacturing arm Femron AG (a creation of former Sinar management?) is negotiating to buy the assets of F&H relevant to Hy6 manufacture.

Does anyone know why companies get split into manufacturing and design/sales pieces this way? (like the Rollei/F&H split.)
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mattlap2
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2009, 02:48:44 PM »
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BJL,

Sinar's factory has always done very high end machining for other clients outside of their own photo business.    My guess is the owners of Fenron are looking to capitalize on that business as well as the work they will do for Sinar Photography.
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BJL
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2009, 03:51:10 PM »
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Quote from: mattlap2
,
Sinar's factory has always done very high end machining for other clients outside of their own photo business.    My guess is the owners of Fenron are looking to capitalize on that business as well as the work they will do for Sinar Photography.
Thanks; that makes sense. The manufacturing part might then be better insulated from possible bad fortunes for the Sinar camera business by the option of shifting emphasis to other markets if needed. I believe that F&H operated like that too ... not that it helped.
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edwinb
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« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2009, 03:59:12 PM »
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the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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PeterA
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« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2009, 05:40:31 PM »
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Quote from: edwinb
the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin

Excellent news Edwin - thanks for posting.
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PdF
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« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2009, 01:26:54 AM »
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Quote from: edwinb
the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin
Allways the same bla-bla. And there is nothing new on the Sinar's site.

PdF
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PdF
ThierryH
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« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2009, 03:57:43 AM »
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Dear Philippe,

Knowing the people left at Sinar, I don't understand this as "Bla-BLa", rather a strong commitment to their customers and the necessary confidence to continue providing the same kind of products and service Sinar is used to.

I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: PdF
Allways the same bla-bla. And there is nothing new on the Sinar's site.

PdF
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Dustbak
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« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2009, 04:19:59 AM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
Dear Philippe,

Knowing the people left at Sinar, I don't understand this as "Bla-BLa", rather a strong commitment to their customers and the necessary confidence to continue providing the same kind of products and service Sinar is used to.

I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.

Best regards,
Thierry


I completely agree with that statement Thierry but do hope that the people left will not make the same mistake as many in this industry already have made.

Poor communications. A website is where most people will go to first these days, it is amazing how bad these companies (it is not just Sinar) are using this medium.

How hard is it to type a statement and put it on your website? Assign 1 person and make it his sole task to put something about what you are doing on your website once every week (make your employees read it as well).

Just thinking out loud here. I believe this will take away much of the uncertainty as well.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 04:21:28 AM by Dustbak » Logged
ThierryH
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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2009, 04:31:13 AM »
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I completely agree with you (and Philippe), websites and the power of the net are still not taken seriously, by many companies, included Sinar.
Many, included at Sinar still believe that it has so little and minor influence on a potential buyer that one can become desperate in trying to change the minds, and I know what I am speaking about.



Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Dustbak
I completely agree with that statement Thierry but do hope that the people left will not make the same mistake as many in this industry already have made.

Poor communications. A website is where most people will go to first these days, it is amazing how bad these companies (it is not just Sinar) are using this medium.

How hard is it to type a statement and put it on your website? Assign 1 person and make it his sole task to put something about what you are doing on your website once every week (make your employees read it as well).

Just thinking out loud here. I believe this will take away much of the uncertainty as well.
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PdF
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« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2009, 08:16:20 AM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
I completely agree with you (and Philippe), websites and the power of the net are still not taken seriously, by many companies, included Sinar.
Many, included at Sinar still believe that it has so little and minor influence on a potential buyer that one can become desperate in trying to change the minds, and I know what I am speaking about.



Best regards,
Thierry

Dear Thierry,

Please excuse me when I'm too agressive. But the "official" communication of Sinar comes one week after the different photographic websites. In French: "Ce sont des figues après Pâques".

But Sinar is still living. And that is the most important for people - like me - who love them.

PdF
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PdF
ThierryH
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« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2009, 08:24:16 AM »
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I understand, Philippe, no harm.

But ..., the communication on the "different websites" comes from Sinar and is the official one, actually: at the end it is important that information is communicated somewhere, although one should may be first use one's own tools, agreed.

Keep well,
Thierry

Quote from: PdF
Dear Thierry,

Please excuse me when I'm too agressive. But the "official" communication of Sinar comes one week after the different photographic websites. In French: "Ce sont des figues après Pâques".

PdF
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bcooter
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« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2009, 05:31:32 PM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.

Best regards,
Thierry

Theirry,

I don't know why you find this remarkable, your customers have the same commitment.

I hear this on this section of the forum all the time, talking about the ultimate image quality, if any photographer uses anything less than camera type A, or Brand B, they just don't care about the quality of what they deliver and that is 180 degrees from the truth in almost every instance.

I can run you off a list of about 20 good photographers that have drastically slowed down in their use and purchase of specialty cameras and spend more time with dslrs and it's not because they lack the will or the inclination to invest and produce the very best work possible.

There is a huge amount of downward pressure on photographers and not just this year, it's been coming for a long time.

Few projects go through without estimate revises, few estimate revises are set in stone, so every photographer I know is working double speed for less than a few years ago, sometimes triple  to quadruple speed and regardless of this they don't have the luxury to look down at little lcd's that are non readable, shoot with cameras and software that is temperamental, constantly stay abreast on what software works with what operating system with what camera back,  or get caught out with 3 to 4 images with pattern moire that takes a lot of money in post work to fix.  They just can't take the chance, not when your moving large crews to three locations a day, shooting a dozen or so set ups on each location.

I'm sure the good hard working people at the specialty camera companies care about what they produce but it's not just Sinar, Leica, Hasselblad and Phase that puts pride in their work.  I'm sure that extends to Canon and Nikon workers also, but I can promise you without a doubt it applies to photographers.

The photographers I know don't do this as a "job" and none I know get a weekly paycheck.  They do this with a passion and spend every waking moment and most of their "expendable cash"  on their careers.  I don't know a photographer, stylist, makeup artist, model, set builder, gaffer (this list can go on for a week) that doesn't routinely reschedule vacations, miss funerals, birthdays, anniversaries, (this list can also go on for a week).  

The photographers I know, have absolutely no desire to produce anything beyond  "ultimate" image quality, but the ones I know that work a lot will not spend a single penny on anything that is not complete today.  We've all been down that road of pdf promises, waited around for things that never happened and today the only response I have is call me when your really ready, not almost ready.

I've know a lot of camera companies, shot for a few, talked to most of them and all I can say is they may care about their product  but most (actually all of them) would rather hear what is good about their product and few want to address what is even close to a negative, because in the realm of specialty camera companies if that wasn't true, their would be 900,000 pixel lcds, in camera jpegs, software that didn't take a class to learn and better prices.

Actually the price thing is what throws most photographers.  We went along for years thinking digital backs had to be a certain price with a long list of limitations, then Hasselblad cut the prices across the board, everybody followed suit and I don't know what most photographers thought but I know the first thing that raced through my mind was great, I paid way too much.

Photographer's that are the target market for digital backs and specialty cameras have been asking for the same thing for years and the response 99% of the time has been more megapixels.  Period.

The one single exception to this was that Sinar HY6 package with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6, though I guess that is long gone but with all these pdfs, announcing new Sinar companies, I can't tell if it is still actively sold . . . can you? . . . will there ever be a 35mm and 110 mm lens for that camera that autofocuses because I can't tell . . . can you?

If medium format companies really knew their market every one of them would have a medium format equivalent to a Canon 85mm lens, but only one, Hasselblad has an up to date lens that falls within that range.  If you don't think that's important try shooting portraits, retail fashion, anything full length in a modern interior location and you'll find 80mm stretches and doesn't compress enough, 140mm to 150mm just doesn't allow you to fit within the space.

But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road.  In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?

Since you previously worked for Sinar and to keep this post relevant, the truth is sinar made good product and had a good professional name, but also had some of the worst marketing on the planet.  Getting instant information from a website is almost impossible, finding the right person to talk to was even harder and most of the Sinar dealers were not that well informed and even the dealers that knew their stuff would admit that on a lot of items and questions they just had no answer.

So regardless of what the camera companies, their respective reps, dealers think no photographer worth their salt wants to shoot with anything but the best, but no photographer that works at any decent level of production doesn't know that the most important thing they do is capture the shot, do it professionally, deliver on time and stay on budget.

A friend who is a great lifestyle photographer sent me a jpeg yesterday from a large production lifestyle shoot.  Really good photographer, really great shot and it's done with a 5d2.   Now this photographer owns medium format, can easily afford newer more expensive cameras, but if you could see this series of photography and tell me what is lacking or was missed by not using the "ultimate" quality camera, then you got a lot sharper eyes than me.

Keep in mind the people that post here, the ones that invested in medium format had no desire to move to other platforms as long as the equipment kept up with their client's demands.  If it did then I'm sure they bought a higher resolution back.  If not, well you know the answer to this.


IMHO

BC

P.S.   I apologize for the long post.

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JSK
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« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2009, 11:03:19 PM »
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+1 @ bcooter

I saved your post under: Lesson 1 (no nonsense)
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ThierryH
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« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2009, 12:21:39 AM »
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bcooter,

I can sign your post as well, because you are right, obviously. But please:

- I did not say others having passion for photography are not committed: I wish simply one stops to continuously denigrate or criticize people who are simply doing their job and are prone to mistakes or imperfections like any other. This forum is much inclined to point fingers instead of thumbs up. And I DO find it remarkable that people at Sinar (like in any industry or job) continue to be committed, and I say it, when it would be easy to simply give up, turn the page and look for other, easier and more comfortable jobs.
It is easy to say and write "non-sense" from one's comfortable seat and without knowing what those people have been going through: for me it deserves "thumbs up" and it is not forbidden to say it, nor is it forgetting that there are millions of others, in all fields, who are as well and as much committed. Jeez, those people have not "ripped off" customers from their money the way many in this world have been ripped off by institutions or individuals without scruples.

Sinar has been presented here and elsewhere too often as the typical example of why things go bad and how it should not be done. Though I can subscribe to many of these critics, I am not sure if all of those writing down those critics are having all the facts and truths in their hands to do so, they simply believe they have it.

- My remark about "ultimate TOOLS" was less about quality than about a "system": there STILL is (and never was) no other company in the world proposing a complete set and line of products and accessories for each type of job.

- YES: the Sinarback eSprit 65 is still sold actively ("with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6").

- "But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road.  In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?":

yes, I would have, would I need it for my work, for the simple reason that I know the company and because I know that there are other lenses, in fact over 45 different ones, fitting the Hy6, included "fast portrait lenses" like a 110mm.

Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
Theirry,

I don't know why you find this remarkable, your customers have the same commitment.

I hear this on this section of the forum all the time, talking about the ultimate image quality, if any photographer uses anything less than camera type A, or Brand B, they just don't care about the quality of what they deliver and that is 180 degrees from the truth in almost every instance.

I can run you off a list of about 20 good photographers that have drastically slowed down in their use and purchase of specialty cameras and spend more time with dslrs and it's not because they lack the will or the inclination to invest and produce the very best work possible.

I'm sure the good hard working people at the specialty camera companies care about what they produce but it's not just Sinar, Leica, Hasselblad and Phase that puts pride in their work.  I'm sure that extends to Canon and Nikon workers also, but I can promise you without a doubt it applies to photographers.

The photographers I know don't do this as a "job" and none I know get a weekly paycheck.  They do this with a passion and spend every waking moment and most of their "expendable cash"  on their careers.  I don't know a photographer, stylist, makeup artist, model, set builder, gaffer (this list can go on for a week) that doesn't routinely reschedule vacations, miss funerals, birthdays, anniversaries, (this list can also go on for a week).  

The photographers I know, have absolutely no desire to produce anything beyond  "ultimate" image quality, but the ones I know that work a lot will not spend a single penny on anything that is not complete today.  We've all been down that road of pdf promises, waited around for things that never happened and today the only response I have is call me when your really ready, not almost ready.

I've know a lot of camera companies, shot for a few, talked to most of them and all I can say is they may care about their product  but most (actually all of them) would rather hear what is good about their product and few want to address what is even close to a negative, because in the realm of specialty camera companies if that wasn't true, their would be 900,000 pixel lcds, in camera jpegs, software that didn't take a class to learn and better prices.

Actually the price thing is what throws most photographers.  We went along for years thinking digital backs had to be a certain price with a long list of limitations, then Hasselblad cut the prices across the board, everybody followed suit and I don't know what most photographers thought but I know the first thing that raced through my mind was great, I paid way too much.

Photographer's that are the target market for digital backs and specialty cameras have been asking for the same thing for years and the response 99% of the time has been more megapixels.  Period.

The one single exception to this was that Sinar HY6 package with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6, though I guess that is long gone but with all these pdfs, announcing new Sinar companies, I can't tell if it is still actively sold . . . can you? . . . will there ever be a 35mm and 110 mm lens for that camera that autofocuses because I can't tell . . . can you?

If medium format companies really knew their market every one of them would have a medium format equivalent to a Canon 85mm lens, but only one, Hasselblad has an up to date lens that falls within that range.  If you don't think that's important try shooting portraits, retail fashion, anything full length in a modern interior location and you'll find 80mm stretches and doesn't compress enough, 140mm to 150mm just doesn't allow you to fit within the space.

But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road.  In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?

Since you previously worked for Sinar and to keep this post relevant, the truth is sinar made good product and had a good professional name, but also had some of the worst marketing on the planet.  Getting instant information from a website is almost impossible, finding the right person to talk to was even harder and most of the Sinar dealers were not that well informed and even the dealers that knew their stuff would admit that on a lot of items and questions they just had no answer.

So regardless of what the camera companies, their respective reps, dealers think no photographer worth their salt wants to shoot with anything but the best, but no photographer that works at any decent level of production doesn't know that the most important thing they do is capture the shot, do it professionally, deliver on time and stay on budget.

A friend who is a great lifestyle photographer sent me a jpeg yesterday from a large production lifestyle shoot.  Really good photographer, really great shot and it's done with a 5d2.   Now this photographer owns medium format, can easily afford newer more expensive cameras, but if you could see this series of photography and tell me what is lacking or was missed by not using the "ultimate" quality camera, then you got a lot sharper eyes than me.

Keep in mind the people that post here, the ones that invested in medium format had no desire to move to other platforms as long as the equipment kept up with their client's demands.  If it did then I'm sure they bought a higher resolution back.  If not, well you know the answer to this.


IMHO

BC

P.S.   I apologize for the long post.
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BJL
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« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2009, 01:07:57 PM »
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Quote from: xinchenc
Wish NEW Sinar provide new digital back (at least FULL Frame 645 sensor) for AFi/Hy6 users. Leaf Imaging is unwilling to do that.
Leaf has been making its backs in a variety of mounts including the discontinued Contax 645AF, so I would expect them to keep making new backs in versions for use with Hy6 bodies, even if Leaf is no longer selling its version of the Hy6 body; even if no-one is selling Hy6 bodies anymore.

Has the "New Leaf" announced otherwise, that its backs will no longer come in versions for the Hy6?
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Cfranson
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« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2009, 02:33:24 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Has the "New Leaf" announced otherwise, that its backs will no longer come in versions for the Hy6?
As of now, Leaf Imaging does not offer any back for the AFi/Hy6.
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stevesanacore
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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2009, 08:02:32 AM »
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I was a Sinar devote in the days of shooting film. In fact every other photographer I knew, was a Sinar user. But today, all of them shoot with a 35mm DSLR. I am always looking at the MF market closely because for myself, I would like to have a MF camera to shoot with for my personal work but they still seem too cumbersome and compromised. Maybe the Leica S2 will change that but professionally I just don't need one.

I just don't understand how a company like Sinar can stay in business competing in such a miniscule market in today's world. Hope i'm wrong because they truly made excellent cameras.
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