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Author Topic: Point-and-shoot with RAW capability  (Read 8609 times)
PeterAit
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« on: September 24, 2009, 08:37:41 PM »
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I have been using a Canon G10 but it had a fatal encounter with salt water while I was out fishing. I don't want another G10 because of its rotten low-light capability. Any other contenders out there?

Thanks,

Peter
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2009, 09:20:48 PM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
I have been using a Canon G10 but it had a fatal encounter with salt water while I was out fishing. I don't want another G10 because of its rotten low-light capability. Any other contenders out there?

Thanks,

Peter

I'm waiting for more choices in the micro 4/3rds cameras as a replacement for my G10
Marc
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2009, 09:49:32 PM »
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Yeah, I agree about the G10's lousy low light capabilities.  I try not to use mine above ISO 400.  Not sure the new G11 fills the bill, but DPReview just posted sample images from a production model:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09092402...ng11gallery.asp

Paul
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 09:50:28 PM by PaulS » Logged

Pelao
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 08:19:29 AM »
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I await Michael's forthcoming GF1 Field Report with great interest (bearing in mind that it's a pre-production model). This camera may be the one for me, although the lack of built-in viewfinder is regrettable. Lots of other technical reviews will come, but I find this type of report more informative.

DP review just published a very positive review of the 20mm f1.7 lens.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 01:03:35 PM »
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Quote from: Pelao
I await Michael's forthcoming GF1 Field Report with great interest (bearing in mind that it's a pre-production model). This camera may be the one for me, although the lack of built-in viewfinder is regrettable. Lots of other technical reviews will come, but I find this type of report more informative.

DP review just published a very positive review of the 20mm f1.7 lens.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=33148108
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Chris Pollock
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 10:20:30 AM »
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I'm currently in Tokyo on business and bought a GF1 with the 20mm F1.7 and 14-45 zoom about a week ago. I also bought the 7-14 mm F4 lens a few days ago. I've been working long hours, the weather has been pretty terrible for photography, and I don't have a mounting plate to attach it to my tripod (just an L-bracket for my 5D II), so I've been unable to give it a thorough test.

Based on my limited experience so far, I'm pretty happy with it. It handles well, has a quality feel, focuses well, and the lenses seem to be of good optical quality. The smaller sensor means more depth of field than a 35mm camera, so the 20mm is more often usable wide open than an equivalent lens on the 5D II would be. Based on my few test shots so far, the 7-14 may be an outstanding lens, considerably sharper than the Canon 10-22 F3.5-4.5 or 17-40 F4 L.

On the other hand, I'm a little disappointed with the noise levels. Of course I expected it to be inferior to the 5D II, but it's a bit noisier than I had hoped, although far superior to the G10. I haven't seen the photos on anything better than my laptop display, and haven't had time to experiment in Photoshop, so I wouldn't base any conclusions on what I've seen so far.

I should include a warning that the cameras on sale in Japan have the language selection function deliberately removed from their menus, so the menus can only be displayed in Japanese. I downloaded the English language manual, which explained how to change the language, but the relevant item doesn't exist in my camera. Apparently the cameras on sale in England can support Japanese menus, so I can only assume that Panasonic deliberately crippled their Japanese market cameras to prevent foreign visitors from buying them. I was aware of this problem when I bought the camera, and can read enough Japanese not to be seriously inconvenienced by it, but I find the thinking behind it to be deeply offensive. Perhaps someone will work out a way to install foreign market firmware onto the Japanese market cameras, although I don't know if I'd want to risk it.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 09:39:26 PM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
I'm currently in Tokyo on business and bought a GF1 with the 20mm F1.7 and 14-45 zoom about a week ago. I also bought the 7-14 mm F4 lens a few days ago. I've been working long hours, the weather has been pretty terrible for photography, and I don't have a mounting plate to attach it to my tripod (just an L-bracket for my 5D II), so I've been unable to give it a thorough test.

Based on my limited experience so far, I'm pretty happy with it. It handles well, has a quality feel, focuses well, and the lenses seem to be of good optical quality. The smaller sensor means more depth of field than a 35mm camera, so the 20mm is more often usable wide open than an equivalent lens on the 5D II would be. Based on my few test shots so far, the 7-14 may be an outstanding lens, considerably sharper than the Canon 10-22 F3.5-4.5 or 17-40 F4 L.

On the other hand, I'm a little disappointed with the noise levels. Of course I expected it to be inferior to the 5D II, but it's a bit noisier than I had hoped, although far superior to the G10. I haven't seen the photos on anything better than my laptop display, and haven't had time to experiment in Photoshop, so I wouldn't base any conclusions on what I've seen so far.

I should include a warning that the cameras on sale in Japan have the language selection function deliberately removed from their menus, so the menus can only be displayed in Japanese. I downloaded the English language manual, which explained how to change the language, but the relevant item doesn't exist in my camera. Apparently the cameras on sale in England can support Japanese menus, so I can only assume that Panasonic deliberately crippled their Japanese market cameras to prevent foreign visitors from buying them. I was aware of this problem when I bought the camera, and can read enough Japanese not to be seriously inconvenienced by it, but I find the thinking behind it to be deeply offensive. Perhaps someone will work out a way to install foreign market firmware onto the Japanese market cameras, although I don't know if I'd want to risk it.

That's odd and too bad I've purchased at least 4 Canons/Nikons in Tokyo even a 5DII the day they were released and all had English menu's and behind the counter they had English manuals, I guess Canon and Nikon cater to foreigners?
Marc
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 09:43:00 PM by marcmccalmont » Logged

Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2009, 08:04:48 AM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
... so I can only assume that Panasonic deliberately crippled their Japanese market cameras to prevent foreign visitors from buying them. I was aware of this problem when I bought the camera, and can read enough Japanese not to be seriously inconvenienced by it, but I find the thinking behind it to be deeply offensive....
The scene opens in Akihabara at Yodobashi Camera...


セールスマン :   外国人はカメラを買おうとしています。
Salesman:  a foreigner is trying to buy a camera

ボス:   どんな国、彼であるか
Boss:  What country, and what about him?

セールスマン :   オーストラリア。彼は牧羊業者です。
Salesman:  Australia. He is a sheep farmer.

ボス:   限られたソフトウェアでユニットを用意してください。すぐに!
Boss:  Please prepare the unit with the limited software. At once!!

[blockquote]( 数分より遅れています )[/blockquote]
[blockquote](A few minutes later)[/blockquote]

セールスマン :   ポロックさん、私たちは残念です。 しかし、メニューが単に日本語であります
Salesman:  Mr. Pollack, it is regrettable, however the menu is only in Japanese.

      [blockquote](ポロックさんはメニューが心配です。 しかし、彼はけちな男性です. 彼はカメラを買います。彼は店を出ます。)[/blockquote]
      [blockquote](Mr. Pollack worries about the menu. But he is a stingy man. He buys the camera. He goes out of the shop. )[/blockquote]

ボス:   ありがとうございます。あなたは侵入から私たちの日本の偉大な国民を保護しました。
Boss:  Thank You!! You have protected the great people of Japan from the invasion.

セールスマン :   それについて言及しないでください。私は外国人をだますあなたの計画を誇りに思っています。
Salesman:  Please don't mention it.  I am proud of your cunning plan to deceive the foreigner.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:33:03 AM by Voltman » Logged
Chris Pollock
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2009, 08:22:56 AM »
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I've also bought 4 Canon EOS cameras in Japan over the years, plus an old Sony Cybershot, and they all supported multiple languages. Apparently Panasonic just don't like to do it for some reason. I can understand why they'd like to force me to buy the more expensive Australian version, but it seems very strange that they charge significantly more in Australia, where the average salary is lower than Japan.

Like Canon cameras, the GF1 suffers from some stupid limitations that wouldn't have cost any money to fix. For example, I was impressed when I read the following specification on DP Review:

AE Bracketing 3, 5 or 7 frames
1/3 to 2.0 EV steps

This would be perfect for shooting an HDR sequence fully automatically. Unfortunately, when I bought the camera, I discovered that the steps can only be 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop, for a maximum bracketing range of 4 stops with 7 steps. 2/3 of a stop is too small a step for HDR (I want to finish the sequence as quickly as possible, to minimize movements), and the 4 stop range is no better than my 5D II. The infuriating thing is that it would have been easy to write the software properly, and woud have added nothing to the cost of the camera.

Haven't Panasonic's design team heard of HDR? Maybe they've decided they don't like it, but some people do, including me. Why not let the customer make the choice? They're the ones paying for it. Customers who don't use HDR won't suffer on account of the camera supporting it.
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Chris Pollock
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2009, 08:53:30 AM »
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Quote from: Voltman
The scene opens in Shinjuku at Yodobashi Camera...
新宿じゃなくて、秋葉原だった。
It wasn't Shinjuku, it was Akihabara.

Quote from: Voltman
ボス:   限られたソフトウェアでユニットを用意してください。すぐに!
Boss:  Please prepare the unit with the limited software. At once!!
知っている限り、日本で売るGF1は全部メニューが日本語のみだ。
As far as I know all GF1s sold in Japan have Japanese-only menus.

Quite frankly I find your attempt at parody juvenile and offensive. As I explained in my original post, I was perfectly aware of the language limitation when I bought the camera. Have a look at this page from Yodobashi camera, which I read long before I bought it:

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/product/100000...FX8U-xksxpWB1So.

I'm sure you know what this means: 言語表示  日本語のみ

If not to restrict sales to foreigners (probably more grey market exports than visitors to Japan), why do you think Panasonic would go to the trouble of making a special Japanese-only version of their camera for the Japanese market? Do you think they want to shave a few kilobytes off the size of the firmware? Do you think Japanese customers would be offended by the presence of an English language option on their cameras?

What exactly is so far-fetched about the idea of some people wanting to restrict sales to foreigners? The DVD industry went to the trouble of adding region codes to their products in a (largely unsuccessful) effort to do just that.

Also, why is it stingy to buy a product at the lowest possible price? Although not poor, I am far from being a man of unlimited wealth. Why should I pay hundreds of extra dollars to fix a problem that doesn't concern me all that much?

By the way, you spelled my name wrong. Was that a mistake, or did you do it deliberately to be annoying?
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Pelao
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 09:32:42 AM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
I'm currently in Tokyo on business and bought a GF1 with the 20mm F1.7 and 14-45 zoom about a week ago. I also bought the 7-14 mm F4 lens a few days ago. I've been working long hours, the weather has been pretty terrible for photography, and I don't have a mounting plate to attach it to my tripod (just an L-bracket for my 5D II), so I've been unable to give it a thorough test.

Based on my limited experience so far, I'm pretty happy with it. It handles well, has a quality feel, focuses well, and the lenses seem to be of good optical quality. The smaller sensor means more depth of field than a 35mm camera, so the 20mm is more often usable wide open than an equivalent lens on the 5D II would be. Based on my few test shots so far, the 7-14 may be an outstanding lens, considerably sharper than the Canon 10-22 F3.5-4.5 or 17-40 F4 L.

On the other hand, I'm a little disappointed with the noise levels. Of course I expected it to be inferior to the 5D II, but it's a bit noisier than I had hoped, although far superior to the G10. I haven't seen the photos on anything better than my laptop display, and haven't had time to experiment in Photoshop, so I wouldn't base any conclusions on what I've seen so far.

I should include a warning that the cameras on sale in Japan have the language selection function deliberately removed from their menus, so the menus can only be displayed in Japanese. I downloaded the English language manual, which explained how to change the language, but the relevant item doesn't exist in my camera. Apparently the cameras on sale in England can support Japanese menus, so I can only assume that Panasonic deliberately crippled their Japanese market cameras to prevent foreign visitors from buying them. I was aware of this problem when I bought the camera, and can read enough Japanese not to be seriously inconvenienced by it, but I find the thinking behind it to be deeply offensive. Perhaps someone will work out a way to install foreign market firmware onto the Japanese market cameras, although I don't know if I'd want to risk it.

Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to detail your experience so far. I hope you post more later when you have had more time to use it. A camera of this size and 'power' certainly appeals to me for some of my photography, especially street stuff.

It seems certain that we'll get more such cameras in the next year or so. I will be especially interested to see what Olympus do with the next PEN.
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Voltman
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2009, 11:36:07 AM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
As far as I know all GF1s sold in Japan have Japanese-only menus.
And as far as I know the Wagga Wagga Daily Advertiser is only printed in English. So what's your point? You've knowingly bought a camera with menus in a language that annoys you (yet you've taken the time to learn at least some of the language?) ..... and further to that you don't seem to think the feature set is up to par.  And now you're offended about it all. Wow. Dude you seem to be seriously conflicted -)
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Chris Pollock
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2009, 05:06:29 PM »
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Quote from: Voltman
And as far as I know the Wagga Wagga Daily Advertiser is only printed in English. So what's your point? You've knowingly bought a camera with menus in a language that annoys you (yet you've taken the time to learn at least some of the language?) ..... and further to that you don't seem to think the feature set is up to par.  And now you're offended about it all. Wow. Dude you seem to be seriously conflicted -)
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that the Japanese language annoys me. What annoys me is the fact that Panasonic deliberately removed support for other languages, when in all likelihood it costs them extra money to produce different versions of their camera for different countries. Quite frankly I'd as soon have a camera that only supports Japanese as one that supports English, but I'd rather have one that supports both. Can you perhaps imagine some advantages to multiple language support?

I remember seeing a T-shirt many years ago with a picture of a skeleton sitting at a bar, with a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. The caption below said "Waiting for the perfect woman...". Can you understand the joke? It's the same with cameras - they all have shortcomings. Some things about my 5D II annoy me, but I bought it because it was the best camera available for my needs. No doubt if I'd bought a Nikon or Sony instead I'd find things that I dislike about them.

I never expected the GF1 to be perfect, but I bought it because it's a good camera in spite of its shortcomings. I still have the right to be annoyed by two weaknesses (the bracketing problem is worse than the single language support) that could have been avoided without increasing the cost of the camera at all. Do you think I should just gush about how great the GF1 is, and recommend that everyone should buy one? Haven't you heard of constructive criticism? Have you invested your life savings in Panasonic stock?

You still haven't answered my questions. Why do you think Panasonic removed multi-language support from the Japanese market cameras? Why is it stingy to pay the lowest possible price for a product?
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Voltman
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 11:58:00 PM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
You still haven't answered my questions.
Apologies for that I was on holiday ...

Quote from: Chris Pollock
- Why do you think Panasonic removed multi-language support from the Japanese market cameras?
What makes you think <assume> that is was "removed"?  Perhaps it wasn't included or planned for in a domestic release?  I don't think they removed anything - they've simply not added a feature which costs a premium for a market that doesn't demand it (with exception to the occasional 1 in 100,000 foreign visitors wanting to avoid the premium).

Quote from: Chris Pollock
- Why is it stingy to pay the lowest possible price for a product?
Hmmm. I think the answer lies within your own question - see www.dictionary.com, but on another note perhaps the added costs of doing business in your own homeland add to the price which you are unwilling to pay? And what makes you so special to get a discount when other, less fortunate Aussies who cannot travel to Japan, cannot get such a break. Look inward at your own shores ...

« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 08:53:22 AM by Voltman » Logged
PeterAit
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 05:25:44 PM »
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As the person who started this thread, should I be peeved that some people hijacked the thread for an incredibly inane argument? Maybe not - after all, it seems to happen quite a bit here.

Anyway, if I may get back to the original topic of a point and shoot with RAW capability, I have decided on the G11. I really liked the G10 except for the noise, and with that mostly fixed, it seems like the best choice for me - lus, there really isn;t an alternative that I know of.

Peter
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Chris Pollock
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 04:36:02 AM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
As the person who started this thread, should I be peeved that some people hijacked the thread for an incredibly inane argument?
I can't say I blame you for being annoyed. I never intended to get sidetracked, but I felt I had to defend myself when someone with an axe to grind started taking swipes at me. I've made my point, and will ignore him from now on.

I also considered the G11 after being disappointed by the image quality from the G10, but ultimately decided to get the GF1 for its much bigger sensor and interchangable lenses. In 2008 I  considered buying the Panasonic G1 rather than the G10, but decided against it because it wasn't compact enough. Had Panasonic released the GF1 in 2008 I most likely never would have bought the G10.

Having used the GF1 a bit more (not a lot), I'm quite happy with it. The 20mm F1.7 is a great lens, and my initial impressions of the 7-14 are positive. The 14-45 is pretty good for its size and price, although I'd love something faster. As I wrote earlier, the noise levels are a bit higher than I'd hoped, but vastly better than the G10. The camera and all 3 lenses are small and light enough to carry around all day without thinking about it.
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PeterAit
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 04:34:41 PM »
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Quote from: Chris Pollock
I can't say I blame you for being annoyed. I never intended to get sidetracked, but I felt I had to defend myself when someone with an axe to grind started taking swipes at me. I've made my point, and will ignore him from now on.

I also considered the G11 after being disappointed by the image quality from the G10, but ultimately decided to get the GF1 for its much bigger sensor and interchangable lenses. In 2008 I  considered buying the Panasonic G1 rather than the G10, but decided against it because it wasn't compact enough. Had Panasonic released the GF1 in 2008 I most likely never would have bought the G10.

Having used the GF1 a bit more (not a lot), I'm quite happy with it. The 20mm F1.7 is a great lens, and my initial impressions of the 7-14 are positive. The 14-45 is pretty good for its size and price, although I'd love something faster. As I wrote earlier, the noise levels are a bit higher than I'd hoped, but vastly better than the G10. The camera and all 3 lenses are small and light enough to carry around all day without thinking about it.

The GF1 does look great, but interchangeable lenses and all are getting away from what I want, something to stuff in my pocket and have with me all the time with no fussing. The G11 is even a bit bulky for this, but I don't want to give up RAW. I am considering also getting a Pentax W80 or similar waterproof camera for wet environments - no RAW but it won't meet the same fate as my G10!

Peter
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
The GF1 does look great, but interchangeable lenses and all are getting away from what I want, something to stuff in my pocket and have with me all the time with no fussing. The G11 is even a bit bulky for this, but I don't want to give up RAW. I am considering also getting a Pentax W80 or similar waterproof camera for wet environments - no RAW but it won't meet the same fate as my G10!

Peter
I'm in the same boat as you, and have pre-ordered the Canon S90. Same basic specs as the G11 (exept lens), in a more compact body that still has manual controls and supports shooting RAW.
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 12:34:20 PM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
I'm in the same boat as you, and have pre-ordered the Canon S90. Same basic specs as the G11 (exept lens), in a more compact body that still has manual controls and supports shooting RAW.


what do you guys think about the Leica D-Lux 4?

kman
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Kent Whiting
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 12:37:04 PM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
I'm in the same boat as you, and have pre-ordered the Canon S90. Same basic specs as the G11 (exept lens), in a more compact body that still has manual controls and supports shooting RAW.


Just received the S90 and although the RAW capabilities are fine, the wideangle distorsion is horrible compared to my G10. So I'm somewhat mixed on the S90.
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