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Author Topic: Mirror slap on new Phase Camera  (Read 10066 times)
JdeV
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« on: October 02, 2009, 05:35:56 AM »
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If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.

In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.

This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.

All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.

Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
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yaya
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 05:52:54 AM »
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Quote from: JdeV
If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.

In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.

This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.

All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.

Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.

Hand held at 1/50 and f8 with the 645DF and 80mm LS lens:



100% crop:



For me there was never a mirror slap issue with the AFD family.
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amsp
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 06:23:42 AM »
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I agree with yaya, I have a first generation AFD and have no problem doing handhelds down to 1/30 with the 80mm. I used to shoot Pentax 67 and I can't see how you could ever compare the two, but even with the huge mirror slap of the 67 I could handhold it at slower speeds than what you are suggesting.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 06:27:22 AM by amsp » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 06:29:36 AM »
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Quote from: JdeV
In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.

This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.

All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.

Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.
With the H3D żand earlier? you can set a mirror-up to shutter-open delay to eliminate blur due to mirror slap.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 06:51:33 AM »
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Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).

What are you using?
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JdeV
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2009, 07:33:30 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
Hand held at 1/50 and f8 with the 645DF and 80mm LS lens:



100% crop:



For me there was never a mirror slap issue with the AFD family.
Hi,
Very interesting and useful.
Cheers,
Jonathan
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JdeV
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2009, 07:52:19 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).

What are you using?
I rent H3Ds with H backs and earlier H models with Phase backs.

I do use the shutter lag adjustment now and then but it is hardly a satisfactory solution to substitute one defect with another.

As has long been acknowledged, it is highly desirable feature for cameras to a) not cause blur by the action of their own mechanics, b take a picture as quick as possible after the shutter is pressed. There are some circumstances in which one can accept a deterioration in b to get an improvement in a) but generally not.

When shooting people in lowish available or continuous light this is a major issue, (particularly given the limited scope for increasing ISO).

It is extremely interesting that the Mamiya/645 series are apparently so superior in this respect.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 08:05:32 AM by JdeV » Logged
BobDavid
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2009, 09:33:19 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
Since several firmware versions ago you can set the delay between the shutter and the mirror-up. This has eliminated the mirror slap problem (certainly for H2 and beyond).

What are you using?

This really does work. Noticeable difference. I set mine to 250ms and don't have any trouble. It could be cumbersome if I were shooting sports or action.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 09:36:31 AM by BobDavid » Logged
JdeV
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2009, 09:35:39 AM »
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Quote from: BobDavid
This really does work. Noticeable difference. I set mine to 250ms and don't have any trouble. It could be cumbersome if I were shooting sports or action.
...or people.
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BobDavid
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 09:37:20 AM »
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Quote from: JdeV
...or people.

I photograph dogs. Never have any trouble (www.topdogimaging.net).
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 09:58:27 AM »
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Quote from: BobDavid
I photograph dogs. Never have any trouble (www.topdogimaging.net).


Bob:

Love that upside down bulldog. Laugh out loud funny!

I think the H2 allows up to 200ms rather than 250ms, but it does help some. That said, I've never noticed much of an issue with the AFD (Mamiya or Phase One) cameras. Not as buttery as the Contax, but not far off. A non issue on the Phase One camera.


Steve Hendrix
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Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 10:05:34 AM »
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There is a Custom Function "Extra Mirror Delay" available on all H cameras. The options available are None, 25ms, 50ms (default), 100ms and 200ms.
This was implemented specifically for handheld photography, when slow shutter speeds are used.

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 10:30:00 AM »
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Quote from: John-S
A fashion photographer is a dude magnet. A dog photographer is a lady magnet. Right on.
Tomorrow I photograph another early-teenage ballerina, in a leotard, to accompany her application for an audition for admission to The Royal Ballet School. There is a wall-to wall window in the studio, so I might try some without flash, or syncro-sun. These should be static poses, but I want to take the opportunity to take some pix of dancers dancing!
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gwhitf
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 11:02:30 AM »
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Quote from: Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS
There is a Custom Function "Extra Mirror Delay" available on all H cameras. The options available are None, 25ms, 50ms (default), 100ms and 200ms.
This was implemented specifically for handheld photography, when slow shutter speeds are used.

Let's be clear here -- when he says "slow shutter speeds", he's talking about a 60th and 125th even. Maybe he's not, but I am.

I have experienced camera shake from Mirror Slap with the H, even on a large tripod, shooting window light, at 125th. Given, this was with the H1, but my point is: the mirror slap issue is not a small one. You can literally feel the camera lunge in your hands, when the shutter fires. Hold the grip, and test it for yourself.

I have found though, that with the CF of the H2, even at 50ms, it helps a good bit.

Still, I am very paranoid shooting available light jobs with the H2 body. Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera. Not what I'd call a great design, in a photographer's hands. The Contax 645 was much better in this regard, but the Contax had a tiny, dark, viewfinder.

Sadly, again: "Advantage: Canon". Again.

With money on the table, no one wants to deliver a job with half the frames with mirror slap blur. Not in a good economy, but certainly not in a challenged economy.

Be forewarned. Call that "Hasselblad-bashing" all you want -- I choose to view it as "informing other commercial photographers, so they don't blow a job".
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 11:25:52 AM by gwhitf » Logged
JdeV
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 01:34:33 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Let's be clear here -- when he says "slow shutter speeds", he's talking about a 60th and 125th even. Maybe he's not, but I am.

I have experienced camera shake from Mirror Slap with the H, even on a large tripod, shooting window light, at 125th. Given, this was with the H1, but my point is: the mirror slap issue is not a small one. You can literally feel the camera lunge in your hands, when the shutter fires. Hold the grip, and test it for yourself.

I have found though, that with the CF of the H2, even at 50ms, it helps a good bit.

Still, I am very paranoid shooting available light jobs with the H2 body. Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera. Not what I'd call a great design, in a photographer's hands. The Contax 645 was much better in this regard, but the Contax had a tiny, dark, viewfinder.

Sadly, again: "Advantage: Canon". Again.

With money on the table, no one wants to deliver a job with half the frames with mirror slap blur. Not in a good economy, but certainly not in a challenged economy.

Be forewarned. Call that "Hasselblad-bashing" all you want -- I choose to view it as "informing other commercial photographers, so they don't blow a job".

My experience also, which is why I specifically quoted 1/250 for safety even with an 80mm lens. I also absolutely hate noticeable shutter lag. Without using the CF the H3D has comparable shutter lag to a DSLR (personal experience, specifications and reviews), but even 50ms makes it glacial and decisive moments will be missed.
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Snook
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2009, 03:04:05 PM »
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Any comments on the prices of the new camera and lens???
Snook
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Rob C
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2009, 04:26:50 PM »
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Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.

Someone mentioned the Pentax 67. I had a brand new Pentax 67 ll for a few months and not only did the mirror bounce but the shutter was every bit as bad too. I'm afraid that the mechanical construction is simply what it is and you will never beat that - just elect to live with it or not.

The day when the sensor switches itself on and off instead of needing a shutter to do the job will be the day that many problems with slr design are solved . All you might need to worry about then could be old friend mirror slap.

I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.

Rob C
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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2009, 04:53:00 PM »
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Quote from: Rob C
I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.
Rob C

Was that parallel with the video I've seen of a coin balanced on an 80mm showing how little vibration there is when the shutter fires, didn't mention mirror locked up  
Disclaimer: V system user with Phase back, never saw mirror slap with film  
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »
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Quote from: Snook
Any comments on the prices of the new camera and lens???
Snook


$5,990 - Phase One DF camera
$3,490 - LS 55mm/f2.8
$2,490 - LS 80mm/f2.8
$3,990 - LS 110mm/f2.8

Far as I know, compatible with all digital backs that mount to previous generation AFD.


And, on a note of extreme good news, Rick Adshead, long-time Leaf tech support God, has come on board with the Leaf Imaging division of Phase One in a similar role as he has had for, gosh, so many years I have lost count. This is awesome news. This probably deserves its own thread.


Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 05:37:39 PM »
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Hi,

In my view the Pentax also has issues with shutter induced vibrations. I had a lot of issues with my Pentax 67 (not Pentax 67 II) on top of my Manfrotto C055 tripod. These problems went away when I upgraded to a Velbon CF (Sherpa 630) tripod having a third of the weight (head included).

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Rob C
Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.

Someone mentioned the Pentax 67. I had a brand new Pentax 67 ll for a few months and not only did the mirror bounce but the shutter was every bit as bad too. I'm afraid that the mechanical construction is simply what it is and you will never beat that - just elect to live with it or not.

The day when the sensor switches itself on and off instead of needing a shutter to do the job will be the day that many problems with slr design are solved . All you might need to worry about then could be old friend mirror slap.

I think I mentioned some time ago that Hasselblad actually published a newsletter where they printed two side-by side shots with one of their cameras to illustrate the need for mirror up; they were totally honest and also pointed out that it was an unwanted feature of all slr types.

Rob C
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