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Author Topic: Mirror slap on new Phase Camera  (Read 10183 times)
jing q
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2009, 01:08:54 AM »
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Quote from: JdeV
My experience also, which is why I specifically quoted 1/250 for safety even with an 80mm lens. I also absolutely hate noticeable shutter lag. Without using the CF the H3D has comparable shutter lag to a DSLR (personal experience, specifications and reviews), but even 50ms makes it glacial and decisive moments will be missed.

the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.

sorry man but if you can't get a sharp image from the 80mm on a H at 1/250th of a second maybe it's other factors like the stability of your shooting position or your handshake?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 01:09:45 AM by jing q » Logged
JdeV
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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2009, 03:03:00 AM »
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Quote from: jing q
the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.

sorry man but if you can't get a sharp image from the 80mm on a H at 1/250th of a second maybe it's other factors like the stability of your shooting position or your handshake?

You didn't properly read anything I wrote did you?

I am curious that you think that the AFD takes 1/2 second after pressing the shutter before the picture is taken. Do you attribute this to shutter lag, AF performance or some combination of the two.

Do other users of the AFD have the same experience I wonder?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 09:50:27 AM »
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Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag, the throw feels a bit reduced, although it still doeesn't offer a firm click feel to the release. But the lag itself is barely noticeable at all. That the DF has reduced the lag even further, and reduced the throw, and reportedly also has a much firmer click to the release convinces me (based on the progress I have already seen in the AFDIII) that shutter lag is a problem of the past. We're not talking about Mamiya AFD or AFDII cameras here.

So - back to main topic, mirror slap, the mirror slap has never been aggressive in the Phase One/Mamiya camera and Yair's post is a good example of what is easily accomplished at slower shutter speeds.


Steve Hendrix
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:55:51 AM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

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Jack Varney
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2009, 10:16:15 AM »
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There is nothing like a 1/2 second delay on the original AFD's either (except when auto focus is changing). I've got two bodies and have experienced minimal shutter lag, 100ms maybe (P45+ back).
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2009, 11:39:52 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C
Mirror bounce is unavoidable - it is a matter of degree. I had two 500 bodies - a 500C and also a later CM. They all bouced like mad. In fact, my disappointment on developing my first roll from the first 500 was immense. I would have had my Rollei TLR back in an instant. But, on a tripod, it was a different story. Which, of course, means that the hand-held joy of the Rollei, with its 75mm in my case, was never going to happen with the Hass with 80mm because of that damn mirror.
Rob C
Bring back the wire-frame view-finder ...and make auto-zoom wire frame view finders and lens hoods while you are at it - does no-one realise how ineffective Lens hoods are on zooms at maximum focal length?
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2009, 01:36:37 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Tripod always, which basically turns the camera into the mobility and spontaneity of a view camera.


Everybody beats themselves up with the Canon this, the Phase that, comparing an M9 to a Nikon to a Hasselblad and to be honest the world has changed.

What use to be medium format is now large format and if you don't think so, walk into your friendly value added dealer and say you want the biggest digital format camera made and it's 645.

I've seen this stuff go back and forth for the last 5 years and the only difference I see in medium format today is the file sizes are bigger and maybe you get a 1/2 stop better iso.  

It doesn't make a Hasselblad or Phase bad, it just means that when your talking mirror slap, iso, lcd's,  shutter lag, etc. etc. medium format works more like large format than any smaller dslr.

Think of the previews.  To really see a medium format preview you need a computer and a software suite  (i.e. polaroid processor).  

Think of the way the medium format cameras have evolved. The newest Mamiya finally has less shutter lag and three new lenses.   By the time they have a whole series of lenses the 35mm cameras will probably be at 35mpx and shooting high def 4k video in raw format.

This isn't a knock on Phase, it's just the way these specialty systems evolve in the digital age.

On this forum the comparisons will rage on and probably never be resolved, but in the world of professional photography cameras have gotten smaller, project expectations have become much larger and the time frame to shoot and deliver halved and I don't see any indication of the clock going backwards.

This doesn't mean that medium format is not viable, it just means that you shoot it differently for different projects.  You see people cross over, shooting still life with a Canon, some guy here wants to shoot night time aerials with a medium format back, but to me those are the exceptions not the rule.

Now I view a 35mm project as something that can be shot at 14 fps and have video.

To me medium format is a 22mpx dslr and large format is a digital back, regardless of the camera.

That's just not my view, it's also my client's views or better put expectations, because most clients don't see the format of camera, they see the format as the size of the computer screen, if that.

It's all kind of backwards now.  In the film days I would do personal work with a hand camera, 35mm or 2 1/4 then when the gig came in a lot of times it was shot 4x5 or 8x10 because the client wanted to go larger or retouch on the transparency.   Now I shoot nearly every paying project with some kind of 35mm camera because the expectations and pace have tripled though when I shoot for personal work I'll shoot it with my Contax because I'm working my own schedule and have the time.

BC
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feppe
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2009, 04:27:25 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
A fashion photographer is a dude magnet. A dog photographer is a lady magnet. Right on.

That's priceless

I wonder where Guy With Camera fits in that equation...
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TMARK
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2009, 07:46:52 PM »
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Quote from: jing q
the only reason why the AFD might seem superior is because each time you press the shutter button you have to wait something like half a second before the shutter actually triggers.
and no you can't adjust the duration of the delay.
mirror slap has been part and parcel of medium format for ages.

I don't think this is true because when shooting film with the AFd, which has barely any shutter lag, I could hand hold to 1/15 or so and get acceptably sharp images.
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TMARK
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2009, 07:50:04 PM »
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Quote from: Beachconnection
There is nothing like a 1/2 second delay on the original AFD's either (except when auto focus is changing). I've got two bodies and have experienced minimal shutter lag, 100ms maybe (P45+ back).

It seems to vary body by body.  My bodies were horrible.
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rethmeier
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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2009, 11:40:18 PM »
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Guy Mancuso?
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Willem Rethmeier
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jing q
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2009, 12:04:05 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag, the throw feels a bit reduced, although it still doeesn't offer a firm click feel to the release. But the lag itself is barely noticeable at all. That the DF has reduced the lag even further, and reduced the throw, and reportedly also has a much firmer click to the release convinces me (based on the progress I have already seen in the AFDIII) that shutter lag is a problem of the past. We're not talking about Mamiya AFD or AFDII cameras here.

So - back to main topic, mirror slap, the mirror slap has never been aggressive in the Phase One/Mamiya camera and Yair's post is a good example of what is easily accomplished at slower shutter speeds.


Steve Hendrix

haha you know how these threads have a tendency to become imprecise. But you are right, this is not about the AFD and AFDII.
but my experiences with them have been horrible. Shooting film was fine, no delay, but with digital I missed tons of shots because of the lag.
I'm sure it's fixed now.
But to the original threadstarter, I read your statement carefully

"In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.

This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.

All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras."

the RZ's balancing is different from a H camera of course, and perhaps the reason you're seeing such intense mirror slap is due to the way you're handling it. Because 1/250th s is quite extreme.
Yes it would be interesting to see the difference in mirror slap, in the meantime with a H you should adjust the mirror delay, it makes a good difference.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 12:05:09 AM by jing q » Logged
gdwhalen
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2009, 11:00:33 AM »
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I've use a screw driver as a hammer before and a knife as a screwdriver.  They work but not the jobs they were designed to do.  Trying to get a MF camera to act/work like a 35mm camera is not reasonable.  And trying to get a 35mm FF digital camera to have the image files of a MF camera is not reasonable.  The trick is to always have the right tool for the job and in photography this means 2-3 systems if you want to get different types of jobs done.  It just grows tiring to me reading people complain about functions that cameras weren't designed for and, in fact, shouldn't be used for.  If you shoot a wide variety of subjects/jobs then you need a wide variety of cameras and that is just the way it is.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
Let's be precise in what we're discussing. The original Mamiya AFD and the AFDII had very noticeable shutter lag, compounded by a spongy release feel and a long throw. This thread is not about those cameras. The Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII with current firmware has very little noticeable shutter lag,


Strangely enough, my new PhaseOne camera has a very noticeable and annoying shutter lag when using mirror up mode.  this is when in full manual mode and AF turned off.  When I press the shutter release the second time to trigger the exposure, the camera makes some type of small sound, not sure what, then releases.  When not using mirror lockup the shutter fires much more normally ... not much lag. Is there some setting I need to change?

I haven't noticed this before because I almost always use the self timer. I discovered this last night as I was shooting splashing waves ... very difficult to time the splash when using mirror lock up.

I also can't find anyway to do a bracket of more than +1/0/-1 ... not very useful.  Am I missing something there?
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eronald
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
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Quote from: rethmeier
Guy Mancuso?

Guy fits in a sports BMW

Edmund
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Rick_Allen
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« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2009, 02:13:21 AM »
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Alot of the shooters I tech for notice a vary pronounced lag with the AFD111. I think its mostly the deep draw of the button. The Contax never had this problem.........hmmm progress!
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derekhsu
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2009, 02:35:59 AM »
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Quote from: JdeV
If someone gets their hands on this camera can they please do a test handheld to see how much mirror slap there is.

In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.

This is deeply disappointing compared to an RZ which, despite having a huge mirror, can be reliably hand-held with a 90mm lens at 1/60th second.

All Hasselblads with mirrors have had this problem, likewise the Pentax 6x7. I do not know from personal experience what the Mamiya 645 series have been like but reports have suggested mirror slap is a problem comparable to the H cameras.

Accurate comparative shutter lag data would also be welcome but that would need a proper test environment.


It really depends on how steady the Photographer could hold the camera with a shutter speed range from 1/60 - 1/125s, I always had a problem with my hands when holding my H system + 50-110MM Zoom lens with 1/60.  1/90s to 1/125s is OK but of course 1/250 is always the best.

I think the H 80MM is a very well designed standard lens.  If I could manage to hold the Camera with lens from 28MM to 80MM lens, everyone could do it.

Indeed, I could say Rollei 6008 & H System having the most serious Mirror Box vibration, however, H System do allow you to adjust the delay....
For Short (Fixed) Focal Length lens vary from 28MM to 100MM, I had no problem at all!
PS: I had owned Rollei 6008 system from 1988 till 2006!

Frankly, for Leaf Shutter Medium Format System, I think it is OK.

Please do not compare it with 135MM DSLR, it is not on a fair ground!
Even for Mamiya AFD System, it is a Focal Plane Shutter, the whole mechanical design is different!

The operation on 645 or 6x6 is different from 135MM DSLR.

Why not increase the ISO to 200/400?  I had found the noise control is quite acceptable in Digital Back!
A Tripod is highly suggested to take pictures with heavy/long focal lens under 1/60s.

Regards
Derek
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 02:36:26 AM by derekhsu » Logged

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2009, 04:49:39 AM »
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Quote from: derekhsu
It really depends on how steady the Photographer could hold the camera with a shutter speed range from 1/60 - 1/125s, I always had a problem with my hands when holding my H system + 50-110MM Zoom lens with 1/60.  1/90s to 1/125s is OK but of course 1/250 is always the best.
What is required is a standardised test for cameras not on tripods... surely the way to do this is to suspend the camera, and fire it with the timer, or remote release?

There would need to be standardisation for this technique... two threads hung from two points a metre apart, attached to two points on or near the camera, separated by the diagonal of the format, or the focal length of the lens?

The longer the lens, the more inertia it has, making it more stable - I could hand-hold my Novoflex 640mm @ 1/125... because it is not a telephoto, (and comes with two pistol grips and a shoulder grip).
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2009, 07:54:51 AM »
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Quote from: Rick_Allen
Alot of the shooters I tech for notice a vary pronounced lag with the AFD111. I think its mostly the deep draw of the button. The Contax never had this problem.........hmmm progress!


There could be several reasons for this - one is that their AFDIII may not have the latest firmware, which improved things quite a bit, and two, there is still a substantial throw to the release button, once you get a feel for where the release point is, that helps. But the decreased throw and surer click of the new DF should make this a non-issue.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 09:58:24 AM »
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I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 12:10:12 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?


Well - I think it did resolve, very nearly, the lag itself. But I have always felt the physicality of the shutter release itself contributes to the sensation of shutter lag. Electronically, an updated AFDIII has very little lag in my experience, but the long throw and release button itself still contribute to a lag feeling or lag affect. I am only going from anecdotal feedback, but that seems to have been adjusted in the DF. If this is true then the experience of the release should be similar to what you get from an H1/H2, which I have always found responsive, but just as much for the actual feel of the release as for the amount of lag.


Steve Hendrix
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