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Author Topic: Mirror slap on new Phase Camera  (Read 10197 times)
stevebri
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2009, 03:34:12 PM »
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Steve's bang on the money here, when I changed systems from the H2 to the AFD II and III the first thing I noticed was the depth of the release button before it fired, quite different from the H2 and DSLR's... that is NOT a shutter lag problem, it's a user lag problem, once you hit the button it fires.

these camera's are high end bits of kit that require a user to get to know them, I shoot fashion, mostly with fast recycling Profoto packs, now you just don't shoot 'rat-a-tat-tat' in a studio, the lights need a little time to recharge, you get into a flow working with the lights, all this twaddle about micro second shutter lag is real world nonesense.

LEARN TO USE YOUR CAMERA.  I have shot with both H2 and Mamiya AFDII's handheld at 1/60th with a 150mm on using natural light... 65% were fine 35% were not, but I'm asking for trouble going below 1/150th with a 150mm lens.

Buying kit doesn't make you a better shooter, using it does...  dismissing an H2 with shutter slap is rubbish... the worlds TOP shooters use that camera, it and the Mamiya/Phase are now industry standard in NYC, London, Paris, Milan & Tokyo...

So maybe it's not the camera......?

S
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Snook
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »
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Quote from: stevebri
Steve's bang on the money here, when I changed systems from the H2 to the AFD II and III the first thing I noticed was the depth of the release button before it fired, quite different from the H2 and DSLR's... that is NOT a shutter lag problem, it's a user lag problem, once you hit the button it fires.

these camera's are high end bits of kit that require a user to get to know them, I shoot fashion, mostly with fast recycling Profoto packs, now you just don't shoot 'rat-a-tat-tat' in a studio, the lights need a little time to recharge, you get into a flow working with the lights, all this twaddle about micro second shutter lag is real world nonesense.

LEARN TO USE YOUR CAMERA.  I have shot with both H2 and Mamiya AFDII's handheld at 1/60th with a 150mm on using natural light... 65% were fine 35% were not, but I'm asking for trouble going below 1/150th with a 150mm lens.

Buying kit doesn't make you a better shooter, using it does...  dismissing an H2 with shutter slap is rubbish... the worlds TOP shooters use that camera, it and the Mamiya/Phase are now industry standard in NYC, London, Paris, Milan & Tokyo...

So maybe it's not the camera......?

S

The time from when you press the button FULLY to when it "actually" takes the shot is lagged and it is the most frustrating things there is.. Not sure if it is the samthing everyone is talking about but I have it happen all the time on the AFDII and it has had me lose many shots!!!!!
As well as the hunting of the crap auto focus...
Quite embarrassing when you "missed" the shot because of the Camera and not the user...

Has happened to me many times.....

It has Nothing do do with learning to use the camera on my end!! Been using mamiya for  well over 20 years now!
Hopefully the DF resolved this PITA problem!

Snook
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2009, 05:28:19 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
I thought the afd 3 was supposed to sort out the shutter lag "problem". This time it'll be different though right?

Lag is, by definition, present on all cameras including Canons/Nikons. It is only a matter of the amount of it. The lag on the AFD3 (especially with the most recent firmware) was greatly improved from the AFD2. All indications are that the lag has been greatly reduced between the AFD3 and the DF.

For most users the lag on the AFD3 was in fact no longer a problem. Hopefully (and our initial hands on testing confirms it) the DF will extend that statement to those fashion/portrait shooters who are most likely to notice the difference of a few ms of lag.

We're not as full of marketing BS as you think :-P.

Doug Peterson
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2009, 05:30:31 PM »
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Quote from: Snook
The time from when you press the button FULLY to when it "actually" takes the shot is lagged and it is the most frustrating things there is.. Not sure if it is the samthing everyone is talking about but I have it happen all the time on the AFDII and it has had me lose many shots!!!!!
As well as the hunting of the crap auto focus...
Quite embarrassing when you "missed" the shot because of the Camera and not the user...

Has happened to me many times.....

It has Nothing do do with learning to use the camera on my end!! Been using mamiya for  well over 20 years now!
Hopefully the DF resolved this PITA problem!

Yes that is exactly what we're talking about here. The AFD3 is already much better in this regard than the AFD2 you have and the DF will be better still (and on par or faster than the H2/H3).

You might think about upgrading that body to a DF when it's released, or an AFD3 (for which I'm sure we will have good deals as many users upgrade to the DF).  The DF would also give you leaf shutter lenses which I know you would enjoy on your 645 platform as you already do with your RZ.

Doug Peterson
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
wolfbellw.
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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2009, 05:54:08 PM »
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is it true that the leaf shutter lenses will work only on the df?
that would be pretty ridicolous, for all those who bought into the sytem this year.
there was never any hint that those lenses will need a new camera.
still can't believe it but it would be nice to get some enlieghtening information.
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Snook
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« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2009, 07:08:07 PM »
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Quote from: wolfbellw.
is it true that the leaf shutter lenses will work only on the df?
that would be pretty ridicolous, for all those who bought into the sytem this year.
there was never any hint that those lenses will need a new camera.
still can't believe it but it would be nice to get some enlieghtening information.

Probably due to the electronics needed to "cock" the shutter in the lens they would need a new body and ofcourse Mamiya will make a lot more money selling new bodies!!!
Maybe they would offer a trade in rebate for the AFD3 guys which would not include me.. I am pretty disappointed in the prices as they seem really high and if you need the lens like I do, buying another camera body for over 5,000 grand is ridiculous, plus I always have back ups so that would be over 10,000 for two bodies..
Pretty disappointing and pretty late if you ask me, but no one has asked me...:+]
Does anybody else feel the prices are really high and when will we know if the new body is needed for the leaf shutter lens???
Snook
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stevebri
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« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2009, 10:06:48 PM »
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Erik I think the prices are to compete with h series pricing, i agree those who bought into the AFD II/Phase One two months ago should have a very very generous carrot dangled in front of them but who knows.

Pricing kit alongside the competition is one thing, but to get it into the rental houses and make it worthwhile for current H users and us AFD II users to 'invest' the prices have to come down or trade ins need to be hefty.

Right now people like us would and will spend that 10K as Erik mentioned on advertising, promo's and personal work to keep us in the minds of our clients...

I would rent the new body and three new lenses for a shoot and carry my normal kit along side, but I live in a major city... those that don't.....


S
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gwhitf
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« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2009, 11:34:58 PM »
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gwhitf
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« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2009, 11:54:41 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
We're not as full of marketing BS as you think :-P.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business.../06adco.html?hp
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Christopher
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« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2009, 01:10:08 AM »
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As far as I know there is a upgrade price from a AFD 3 if you bought it in the last year for around 1500US. Could be wrong, but it exists in Germany.
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woof75
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« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2009, 03:45:28 AM »
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Of course a nice thing about Mamiya is you can buy a afd 1 body for 800 dollars as back up to keep you going. Also MAC group in Long island (NY) is phenomenally quick and professional with repairs and loaners. I have been so impressed by them.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2009, 05:09:29 AM »
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With the variable delay to reduce mirror-shake, shutter-lag is related to Mirror-shake, but in the one page of specifications in the 8 page data-sheet for the HD4-60, this significant parameter is absent ...of course they should quote figures for normal operation, and with the mirror locked up.

...does anyone know the actual numbers claimed/quoted by the Phase and Hassy?
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
jing q
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« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2009, 05:17:41 AM »
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Quote from: woof75
Of course a nice thing about Mamiya is you can buy a afd 1 body for 800 dollars as back up to keep you going. Also MAC group in Long island (NY) is phenomenally quick and professional with repairs and loaners. I have been so impressed by them.

unfortunately they don't feature as much in rental houses these days. I had problems renting a AFDII backup when I was in NY for a job
hopefully phase one works on getting their cameras in the rental houses?good to have choice
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TMARK
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« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2009, 08:54:29 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf

About time.
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bcooter
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« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2009, 09:48:11 AM »
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Quote from: Snook
Does anybody else feel the prices are really high and when will we know if the new body is needed for the leaf shutter lens???
Snook


I don't know.   16,000 clams for a Mamiya, excuse me Phase body and three lenses seems high.  Especially When Hasselblad was selling a Camera, a lens and a 31mpx back for $17,000.

Actually at those prices in seems like Phase is getting into Hy6 territory and the marketing seems the same.

Why do digital companies want to change the name of cameras from Rollei to AFI,  Mamiya to Phase?  

That's like calling a Hasselblad an Imacon.  It's not that  it's a bad name, but why throw away all of that brand recognition?

It would be as if Leica put a big red Jenoptik dot on their cameras because they went digital.

I don't get it, but thank God for black gaffers tape.  Actually thank God for KEH.

BC
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:55:55 AM by bcooter » Logged
asf
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« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2009, 10:36:04 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Why do digital companies want to change the name of cameras from Rollei to AFI,  Mamiya to Phase?  

That's like calling a Hasselblad an Imacon.  It's not that  it's a bad name, but why throw away all of that brand recognition?

It would be as if Leica put a big red Jenoptik dot on their cameras because they went digital.


BC

Often in cases like this it's not a matter of choice.
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Juanito
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« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2009, 12:08:38 PM »
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In my experience you need to shoot at 1/250 or above with an 80mm lens on an H series body to avoid blur from mirror slap.
I'm glad you prefaced your comment with "in my experience," because, in my experience, I've shot down to 1/60th with good results and I have no problem shooting at 1/125th with no blur. I don't use the shutter lag compensation either. I'm shooting with a well-worn H1 so it's not like I have the latest and greatest. The culprit may be the camera, but it could be shooting style as well.

John
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JdeV
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« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2009, 05:19:49 PM »
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Quote from: Juanito
I'm glad you prefaced your comment with "in my experience," because, in my experience, I've shot down to 1/60th with good results and I have no problem shooting at 1/125th with no blur. I don't use the shutter lag compensation either. I'm shooting with a well-worn H1 so it's not like I have the latest and greatest. The culprit may be the camera, but it could be shooting style as well.

John

You might be able to get results at slower shutter speeds that you personally consider usable but can you get as sharp as the camera can do 99% of the time at 1/60 or even 1/125? I believe the answer is 'no' regardless of shooting style.

If you disagree, do this test: Point the camera at something like some posters with fine text on them that the camera can just resolve, fire off 10 frames each at different shutter speeds and look at your results at 100%. If you are very good/lucky you might have a fairly high success rate with 1/125 (forget 1/60) but I've done this with a few different assistants and no-one has even managed 70%. If you want to be thorough, stick the camera on a tripod, lock up the mirror, wait, and do a reference shot for comparison.

All this might sound a bit obsessive but the fact of the matter is that current MFDBs are only modestly superior to a D3x/1dsmkIII in terms of the detail they can resolve and you are chucking that out of the window if your shots aren't sharp because of camera shake. Knowing what the bodies can and can't do is therefore imperative. (Especially given what an expensive hassle they are).
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tho_mas
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« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2009, 05:41:47 PM »
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Quote from: JdeV
You might be able to get results at slower shutter speeds that you personally consider usable but can you get as sharp as the camera can do 99% of the time at 1/60 or even 1/125? I believe the answer is 'no' regardless of shooting style.
If you disagree, do this test (...)
I'd agree here.
Actually you can do the test the other way around as well. Mount the camera on a very good tripod. Shoot with decreasing shutter speeds. You'll determine clearly the shutter speed when the mirror/camera shake affects sharpness. So even if you are very, very good in shooting handheld there is no way that you can shoot below the respective shutter speed. With the Contax this is 1/60'' (clearly noticable with the P45, the P21+ is more forgiving)... so 1/125'' is the barrier for shooting handheld regardless of the focal length. But... it's really a matter of personal taste and the subject as well. With the P21+ I get "usable" results at 1/30''... of course not tack sharp but sometimes that is not required.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 05:43:41 PM by tho_mas » Logged
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 07:52:18 AM »
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Quote from: Christopher
As far as I know there is a upgrade price from a AFD 3 if you bought it in the last year for around 1500US. Could be wrong, but it exists in Germany.

Exists in the UK too, the email I just received from Phase says,

"Any customer that purchased a Phase One 645AF Camera Body from 1st October 2008 until 1st October 2009
can upgrade their 645AF body to the new 645DF body for £1200.00 + VAT. Body only price £3900.00 + VAT"
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