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Author Topic: HP Dreamcolor a Mac and a Epson 9900  (Read 11553 times)
RandomJoe
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« on: October 03, 2009, 06:07:16 PM »
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Here is my problem

I am looking to get a HP Dreamcolor 24" Monitor
a 20" Imac with a Mini Displayport and a Epson 9900

I heard that the mini-display ports on Macs can really only deliver 8bits of color and not 10bits that the dreamcolor can display
I considered going to a PC with a Videocard that can output 10bit color. but on PCs I cant print 16bit to the Epson 9900 from Photoshop

How do I get 10bits of color going to the Dreamcolor and 16bits going to the Epson 9900 on the same machine (Mac or PC)

also Im looking at getting a Spyder3Studio SR Calibration system to calibrate everything together
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 06:08:11 PM by RandomJoe » Logged
Andrew Fee
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 05:28:34 PM »
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Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
 
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
 
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)
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jerryrock
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2009, 06:38:01 PM »
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Quote from: Andrew Fee
Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
 
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
 
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)


The DreamColor bashing continues ...

I have the HP LP2480zx monitor. It is a wonderful display that has a true 30 bit panel (10bits/color) and a 12 bit LUT.  http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/s...5/c01668595.pdf

There have been video cards capable of outputting 10 bits/channel for some time now. The limit has been with operating systems and output connections. A 10 bit per channel signal can be transmitted via the HDMI and Display Port connectors on the DreamColor monitor.

It is currently the widest gamut monitor available and the only monitor that can accurately calibrate seven distinct color spaces and retain the calibration information in the monitor's LUT. This allows you to switch calibrated gamuts with the push of a button.

I would recommend the DreamColor monitor and the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution which contains an Xrite i1 Display 2 custom filtered for the extremely wide gamut of the DreamColor monitor with software allowing the calibration to be written to the monitors LUT.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 06:46:54 PM by jerryrock » Logged

Gerald J Skrocki
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RandomJoe
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 07:30:26 PM »
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Quote from: Andrew Fee
Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
 
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
 
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)


from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print

Id like to run it all from a Mac, but from what ive read the mini displayport currently available only outputs 8bits and not the 10bits that it should.

I am also thinking of the NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV which is a 10bit, LED panel similar to the HP , but can hook up via Dual Link DVi for 10bit output
not sure if  Mac Pro can hook up to this properly

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jerryrock
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 11:07:16 PM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print

Id like to run it all from a Mac, but from what ive read the mini displayport currently available only outputs 8bits and not the 10bits that it should.

I am also thinking of the NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV which is a 10bit, LED panel similar to the HP , but can hook up via Dual Link DVi for 10bit output
not sure if  Mac Pro can hook up to this properly

The NEC you mentioned is discontinued and has a 10 bit LUT as opposed to the 12 bit LUT of the HP. THe DreamColor can also connect by dual link DVI but this connection type not giving you true 10 bit input.

My DreamColor monitor is hooked up to my MacPro with a 20WSX Cintiq as a secondary display. The MacPro is running an ATIX1900XT video card which sports two dual link DVI outputs and claims it can output 10bit but it is still limited by the operating system.

Quote
30-bit world
The HP DreamColor LP2480zx display’s 30-bit panel can display 30-bit content accurately, without losing precision. However, to achieve this you must have a complete 30-bit chain, with all components able to handle 30-bit pixels:
application   operating system  graphics driver   graphics card   DisplayPort cable  LP2480zx display
At the time of writing this paper (July 2008), few commercial applications are able to display 30-bit images, and 30-bit-capable graphics cards are in the prototype stage. The DisplayPort connection is already 30-bit capable. Over time, applications, cards, and drivers will reach the market and provide a full 30-bit path from application to display.
24-bit world
For most users, color will remain at 24-bit precision. For example, if your graphics card doesn’t have a DisplayPort output, then DVI will probably be in use. DVI is limited to 24 bits.
The good news is that the HP DreamColor LP2480zx display’s 30-bit panel delivers a benefit even when displaying 24-bit pixels. The internal electronic system in the display, known as the HP DreamColor Engine, adjusts pixel colors and luminances to map them accurately to the user’s selected standard color space (sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc). This engine operates at very high (36-bit) precision, and the results are displayed at 30-bit precision on the panel. This means that the 30-bit panel improves the ability of the display to show exactly the correct color for every pixel. A 24-bit panel would introduce larger deviations from accuracy, which can give rise to banding and other undesirable effects.

Display output and print output are like apples and oranges. The Mac OS Leopard is already capable of outputting 16bits to the printer driver in Photoshop CS4, but this has little to do with display output. Photoshop is still only capable of outputting 8bit color to the graphic card and the same is true of the Mac OS. The video card and/or monitor LUT then extrapolates this data into 10 bit color for display. This is where a 12 bit LUT is able to give a smoother transition than 10 BIt LUT.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 02:54:04 AM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print

Spyder3 is not a spectrophotometer, it's only a reflective colorimeter. I didn't test the profiling solution, but IMO Spyder puck doesn't work well with wide gamut panels. The ColorMunki is a perfect solution if you have NEC panel with Spectraview software, or Eizo CG with ColorNavigator - the bundled software is too simple to take advantage of high bit panel.

As for the 10bit output, I wouldn't care until software really supports it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 02:55:03 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Andrew Fee
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 03:22:27 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
The DreamColor bashing continues ...

I have the HP LP2480zx monitor. It is a wonderful display that has a true 30 bit panel (10bits/color) and a 12 bit LUT.  http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/s...5/c01668595.pdf
It was not my intention to ‘bash’ the DreamColor monitor, I had read that it used an 8-bit LG panel though, so it seemed like whether or not you could send it 10-bit data was fairly inconsequential, especially when virtually no software supports a greater than 8-bit output, even if the OS can do it.
 
Quote from: jerryrock
There have been video cards capable of outputting 10 bits/channel for some time now. The limit has been with operating systems and output connections. A 10 bit per channel signal can be transmitted via the HDMI and Display Port connectors on the DreamColor monitor.
I know that HDMI and DisplayPort are capable of transmitting greater than 8-bit data, but I didn't realise there were any cards that actually could. I would be very happy if updating to Windows 7 means I can output 10/16-bit colour from my HDMI 1.3-equipped PC. (my LCoS projector has native 10-bit panels, for example)
 
I did have a look around, but couldn't find any evidence of people outputting greater than 8-bit on Windows 7, or available graphics cards that can do it, just articles stating that Microsoft have claimed they will support it.
 
It does look like the upcoming 5800 series from ATi will support ‘Deep Color’ output though, as it is listed in their specifications. (Deep Color = greater than 8-bit 4:4:4 colour)
 
Quote from: jerryrock
I would recommend the DreamColor monitor and the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution which contains an Xrite i1 Display 2 custom filtered for the extremely wide gamut of the DreamColor monitor with software allowing the calibration to be written to the monitors LUT.
I would second this recommendation if he plans on getting one. As I mentioned above, a spectro is generally more accurate than a colorimeter, but a colorimeter ‘tuned’ for a specific display is preferable to a spectro. (at least, preferable to ‘inexpensive’ consumer spectros)
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RandomJoe
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 07:46:19 AM »
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Quotes from the Manufacturers website

Spyder3Studio SR

What You Get

-Spyder3Print SR™ Spectrocolorimeter & Base
- Spyder3Elite™ Colorimeter

New Profiling Speed and Accuracy
New strip reading Spectrocolorimeter gives you custom profiles in minutes with EZ targets for color or black and white. New SpyderGuide™ included for convenience in creating profiles easily and accurately.

not sure why people say its not.. it has a Colorimeter for the screen and spectrocolorimeter for print
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Czornyj
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 08:53:40 AM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
not sure why people say its not.. it has a Colorimeter for the screen and spectrocolorimeter for print

I only said it'd not a spectrophotometer - Datacolor marketoids may call it "spectrocolorimeter", but it's still a colorimeter, not a spectrophotometer - no mater how cool they'll call it.
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RandomJoe
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2009, 09:00:47 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
I only said it'd not a spectrophotometer - Datacolor marketoids may call it "spectrocolorimeter", but it's still a colorimeter, not a spectrophotometer - no mater how cool they'll call it.


How do you know? im just curious
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Czornyj
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2009, 09:28:19 AM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
How do you know? im just curious

dr Karl Lang explains the difference between colorimeter and spectrophotometer here:
http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whit...xrite-wp-3a.pdf

If that instrument was a real spectrophotometer, with holographic diffraction grating and photodiode matrix, they'd call it "spectrophotometer", not "spectrocolorimeter". New Spyder colorimeters are modified - they have 7 detectors instead of 4 detector in former colorimeters, but they are still colorimeters.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 09:55:29 AM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 11:19:57 AM »
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10bit, 12 bit, immaterial. What’s useful is more than 8 bits to avoid banding. You’re not getting all 10-12 bits out anyway, not until the full display path AND the OS AND the applications support it. None do today. Its like arguing that 16-bit capture is superior to 12 bit (nothing else considered) and what’s really important here is, you’ve got more than 8-bits.

The Datacolor device is not a true Spectrophotometer. Its some device with a name they made up.... Karl’s piece describes the differences.

None of the color geeks I know like Karl, who jumped on the HP early are as thrilled with the final product as at least one here. Mostly due to software issues and the like. Its what you get when you jump on the bleeding edge. You want to call that bashing, well so be it.
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Andrew Rodney
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RandomJoe
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2009, 11:24:44 AM »
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hmm ok

Im not very impressed with the Colormunki
what product would you suggest to calibrate Wide Gamut screens and do printer profiles
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 11:26:32 AM by RandomJoe » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 11:41:19 AM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
hmm ok

Im not very impressed with the Colormunki
what product would you suggest to calibrate Wide Gamut screens and do printer profiles

The ColorMunki produces fine results on my wide gamut NEC 3090....

Better however would be the custom mated i1 Display. NEC in this case has had X-Rite build custom filter matrixes into the device for their units. If you read Karl’s piece, you’ll see that a Colorimeter is superior at measuring darker colors. So a custom mated Colorimeter, is the best solution, as we’ve seen over the years with PressView, Artisan and Barco reference V.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 02:17:28 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Spyder3 is not a spectrophotometer, it's only a reflective colorimeter. I didn't test the profiling solution, but IMO Spyder puck doesn't work well with wide gamut panels. The ColorMunki is a perfect solution if you have NEC panel with Spectraview software, or Eizo CG with ColorNavigator - the bundled software is too simple to take advantage of high bit panel.

As for the 10bit output, I wouldn't care until software really supports it.

Have you managed to get the Colormunki working with European Spectraview software (Basicolor)? I can't, it doesn't seem to be supported.
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 02:35:37 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
None of the color geeks I know like Karl, who jumped on the HP early are as thrilled with the final product as at least one here. Mostly due to software issues and the like. Its what you get when you jump on the bleeding edge. You want to call that bashing, well so be it.

Again, reporting conjecture and third party information without fact is misleading and unfair to someone who is contemplating this purchase.

"Software issues and the like" is hardly a professional opinion, in fact it could apply to most hardware in today's market of ever changing operating systems.
The DreamColor monitor and HP Advanced Profiling Solution function well with both Mac OS 10.6.1 and Vista 64bit on my MacPro 2.66 quad Xeon with ATIX1900XT graphic card.

The truth is that monitors backlit with RGB LED produce the widest color gamut currently available. If that is what the OP is looking for, then this should be the monitor to consider.

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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 02:37:39 PM »
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Quote from: Pete_G
Have you managed to get the Colormunki working with European Spectraview software (Basicolor)? I can't, it doesn't seem to be supported.

No, only American Spectraview II and Eizo Color Navigator. For some mysterious reason basICColor (aka Spectraview Profiler) still doesn't support CM.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 02:38:35 PM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 04:10:21 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Again, reporting conjecture and third party information without fact is misleading and unfair to someone who is contemplating this purchase.

Well after calling it a piece of shit and discussing the broken firmware....

Maybe its all been fixed. Early adopters live on the bleeding edge.

Quote
The DreamColor monitor and HP Advanced Profiling Solution function well with both Mac OS 10.6.1 and Vista 64bit on my MacPro 2.66 quad Xeon with ATIX1900XT graphic card.

No one said it didn’t function. Function as designed and advertised to the level a color scientist with the tools and understanding and test it feel it should function is a different story.

Quote
The truth is that monitors backlit with RGB LED produce the widest color gamut currently available. If that is what the OP is looking for, then this should be the monitor to consider.

Well whooped-do. Like the number of bits, it appears you’re most interested in big numbers and big gamuts and feel that’s the ultimate criteria. You do realize that for many, wider gamut is actually detrimental to image editing, because we don’t have a full high bit display path.
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Andrew Rodney
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jerryrock
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 05:03:08 PM »
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Andrew, I have yet to read any evaluation (positive or negative) of this monitor by Karl Lang. The fact that he has one speaks for itself.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2009, 05:50:52 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Andrew, I have yet to read any evaluation (positive or negative) of this monitor by Karl Lang. The fact that he has one speaks for itself.

You’re not really on Karl’s Radar...
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Andrew Rodney
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