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Author Topic: HP Dreamcolor a Mac and a Epson 9900  (Read 10959 times)
RandomJoe
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2009, 07:32:45 PM »
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hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6

you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC

Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..

10bit colour with 16 bit printing
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Andrew Fee
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2009, 08:39:49 PM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6

you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC

Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..

10bit colour with 16 bit printing
Are you sure? I have just updated my PC to Windows 7 today, and despite having a graphics card with a HDMI v1.3 port (motherboard with an integrated nVidia 9400) and a display that can accept up to 12-bit colour I see no option to output anything greater than 8-bit colour. (or 32-bit as Windows calls it)
 
I know that ATi have been advertising ‘10-bit quality’ for a while now, but it's still 8-bit data coming out of the card, it's just a 10-bit LUT dithered to 8-bit from what I understand. (and ideally, you would not use a graphics card's LUT for colour correction anyway)
 
Even if I could get 10/16-bit out from my PC, I don't know of any applications that support it, including Photoshop, so the only difference would be Windows multiplying every output value by 256. (8-bit = 256 steps of gradation, 16-bit = 65536 steps) It might report 16-bit but the image quality would be identical.
 
 
At this point, it all seems to be theoretical, rather than something that is actually possible. Perhaps when the new ATi cards come out that will change (as they mention Deep Colour support in the specs) but even if they do, you won't see a bit of difference right now, as there are no applications that support greater than 8-bit output.
 
 
What absolutely is a benefit, however, is a monitor with high bit-depth writeable LUTs. That way you leave the 8-bit data untouched on the PC-side, and do greyscale/colour calibration with higher precision inside the monitor, resulting in less posterisation.
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jerryrock
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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2009, 03:06:12 PM »
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Some Graphics card manufacturers claim 10 bit per channel output via DVI such as the ATIX1900 series (PC and Mac)

Avivo™ Video and Display Platform
High performance programmable video processor
Accelerated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX, WMV9, VC-1, and H.264 decoding and transcoding
DXVA support
De-blocking and noise reduction filtering
Motion compensation, IDCT, DCT and color space conversion
Vector adaptive per-pixel de-interlacing
3:2 pulldown (frame rate conversion)
Seamless integration of pixel shaders with video in real time
HDR tone mapping acceleration
Maps any input format to 10 bit per channel output
Flexible display support
Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready*
Dual integrated 10 bit per channel 400 MHz DACs
16 bit per channel floating point HDR and 10 bit per channel DVI output
Programmable piecewise linear gamma correction, color correction, and color space conversion (10 bits per color)
Complete, independent color controls and video overlays for each display
High quality pre- and post-scaling engines, with underscan support for all outputs
Content-adaptive de-flicker filtering for interlaced displays
Xilleon™ TV encoder for high quality analog output
YPrPb component output for direct drive of HDTV displays
Spatial/temporal dithering enables 10-bit color quality on 8-bit and 6-bit displays
Fast, glitch-free mode switching
VGA mode support on all outputs
Drive two displays simultaneously with independent resolutions and refresh rates

The ATI 4870 HD claims full 30 bit display output via mini display port/dvi (Mac/PC)

http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonhd4800/specs3.html

ATI Fire Pro V5700 line claims 8, 10 amd 16 bit per color output via Display port (PC)

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation...5700-specs.aspx

Then there is the NVIDIA Quadro CX claims 30 bit output via Display Port and optimized for Adobe CS4(PC) hopefully we will see a MAc option

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_cx_us.html

NVIDIA currently makes the dual link DVI Quadro FX4800 for Mac Pro but I could not find information about color output

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadr...for_mac_us.html
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Gerald J Skrocki
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neil snape
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2009, 01:11:06 AM »
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Quote from: Andrew Fee
It was not my intention to ‘bash’ the DreamColor monitor, I had read that it used an 8-bit LG panel though, so it seemed like whether or not you could send it 10-bit data was fairly inconsequential, especially when virtually no software supports a greater than 8-bit output, even if the OS can do it.
 

I know that HDMI and DisplayPort are capable of transmitting greater than 8-bit data, but I didn't realise there were any cards that actually could. I would be very happy if updating to Windows 7 means I can output 10/16-bit colour from my HDMI 1.3-equipped PC. (my LCoS projector has native 10-bit panels, for example)
 
I did have a look around, but couldn't find any evidence of people outputting greater than 8-bit on Windows 7, or available graphics cards that can do it, just articles stating that Microsoft have claimed they will support it.
 
It does look like the upcoming 5800 series from ATi will support ‘Deep Color’ output though, as it is listed in their specifications. (Deep Color = greater than 8-bit 4:4:4 colour)
 

I would second this recommendation if he plans on getting one. As I mentioned above, a spectro is generally more accurate than a colorimeter, but a colorimeter ‘tuned’ for a specific display is preferable to a spectro. (at least, preferable to ‘inexpensive’ consumer spectros)



The HP monitor has very interesting technology behind it. The LCD panel is only one part of the device. It is a high bit screen btw, not at all 8 bit.
Perhaps some writer misinterpreted the fact that you can send 8 bit to the monitor with the normal DVI connection. The electronics reinterpret the 8 bits and apply the necessary LCD corrections at a higher bit depth necessary for accurate control as do all high end monitors.


Most of the recent cards on Macs are fully capable of delivering 10bits, but the DVI port does not with the current systems drivers.  
The only way to get 10 bits out to the monitor is a Display Port. I assume the Mini DP has the config so it should work.


The easiest way to calibrate the HP is with a tuned i1 colorimeter APS  which I have, but any i1 Pro will do a respectable job too, including the ColorMunki.
I wouldn't recommend the Spyder for this monitor, the co-ordinates are just too far out there for the colorimters expected filtration.

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neil snape
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2009, 01:15:56 AM »
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Quote from: RandomJoe
hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6

you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC

Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..

10bit colour with 16 bit printing


With a card with a Display Port or Mini DP on the Mac the output through that connection should be 10 bit. I don't have one so I cannot verify this. I do know the color scientist that did the set up though and they told me it indeed did work at 10 bits through the Mini DP on the recent portables.
Does it work on the MAcPro with a card that has Display Port? I don't know.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2009, 07:37:24 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
The HP monitor has very interesting technology behind it. The LCD panel is only one part of the device. It is a high bit screen btw, not at all 8 bit.
Perhaps some writer misinterpreted the fact that you can send 8 bit to the monitor with the normal DVI connection. The electronics reinterpret the 8 bits and apply the necessary LCD corrections at a higher bit depth necessary for accurate control as do all high end monitors.

Neil - do you mean, that HP somehow interpolates 8 bit data to 10bit image (like in Quato IntelliProof) to get smoother transitions, or that is it just used to get better linearization (like in NEC)?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:37:49 AM by Czornyj » Logged

neil snape
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2009, 08:45:24 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Neil - do you mean, that HP somehow interpolates 8 bit data to 10bit image (like in Quato IntelliProof) to get smoother transitions, or that is it just used to get better linearization (like in NEC)?
Actually it does both but in two different process steps. That is according to the manual anyway.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2009, 09:04:03 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
Actually it does both but in two different process steps. That is according to the manual anyway.

Thanks, that's interesting information - HP should have more informative marketing materials.
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jerryrock
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2009, 09:21:56 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
The easiest way to calibrate the HP is with a tuned i1 colorimeter APS  which I have, but any i1 Pro will do a respectable job too, including the ColorMunki.
I wouldn't recommend the Spyder for this monitor, the co-ordinates are just too far out there for the colorimters expected filtration.

Currently the only calibration solution that will write to the DreamColor LUT is the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution.

From Greg Staten HP DreamColor Engineer:

Quote
The HP DreamColor calibration kit comes with a modified X-Rite i1D2 calibrator. Due to the very wide gamut of the monitor, we had to modify the calibrator's firmware so that it could properly read the monitor's wide gamut color primaries. (Essentially it had to be re-programmed to read a different base wavelength for each R,G,B primary.) Using a standard i1D2 will give incorrect results and wrong calibration.

At this point the calibration software for Mac and Windows (developed for us by X-Rite) does not support any other calibrators. That said, we and our studio partners have developed an open source calibration tool for Linux called Ookala (
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ookala-mcf/) that can be used with either the DreamColor i1D2 or an X-Rite Chroma5. In addition, the hooks are provided to write a driver for different calibration hardware.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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jerryrock
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2009, 09:46:50 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Thanks, that's interesting information - HP should have more informative marketing materials.

They do. Please refer to attached files.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 10:01:46 AM by jerryrock » Logged

Gerald J Skrocki
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Czornyj
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2009, 10:37:20 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
They do. Please refer to attached files.

I've read these materials before and didn't find anything about converting 8bit signal to 10bit, like in Quato White Papers:
http://www.quato.de/german/manuals/Whitepaper_IP262_240.pdf
page 6: "The display’s image processing unit (IPU) converts any 8 bit signal from the digital graphics card to 10 bit. As the human eye needs more than 256 shades of gray to have the perception of a smooth blending from one color to the other, this 10bit output is needed to reproduce ultra smooth gradiants and high dynamic images without loosing detail."
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jerryrock
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2009, 01:08:01 PM »
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The entire DreamColor Manual was to large to upload. I extracted the portion dealing with color management  and theory behind it which should answer any questions.

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Gerald J Skrocki
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Cyclone
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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2009, 08:36:09 AM »
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Hi Jerry I have afew questions about the DreamColor.

I have read on some forums that the DreamColor is not a 10bit display. Do you know of any conformation of this fact? I also read that there's dithering.  Are the preset color modes (sRGB, Adobe RGB etc) emulations using the monitor's full gamut or is each color preset a true gamut as if the monitor was designed sprecifically each one?

Also I have been trying to find some indepth professional reviews for this monitor but can't seem to find any. Do you know of any reviews?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 08:37:29 AM by Cyclone » Logged
jerryrock
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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2009, 09:29:42 AM »
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Cyclone,


Yes the LP2480zx is a true 10 bit panel. The seven distinct color spaces can each be independently calibrated and represent accurate gamuts not emulations. This is the only monitor on the market that can accomplish that task. The calibrations are stored in the monitor LUT. There are many reviews of this monitor on the internet, none that I know of are performed by a color scientist. The quality and accuracy of the reviews reflect the knowledge of the reviewer. Some of the best information about this monitor can be found on the Creative Cow website, including input from an HP DreamColor engineer. Just do a search on their site for "DreamColor"

http://forums.creativecow.net/

Also, please read the material that I previously uploaded concerning this monitor. It should answer most of your questions.

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Gerald J Skrocki
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digitaldog
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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2009, 09:35:41 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
The seven distinct color spaces can each be independently calibrated and represent accurate gamuts not emulations. This is the only monitor on the market that can accomplish that task.

Some of the Eizo displays can "emulate" another color gamut because they can do gamut transforms in the display on the RGB video data.
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Andrew Rodney
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Cyclone
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2009, 11:24:18 AM »
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Thanks for your replys. I did find a couple of reviews but none that went in depth that analysed the color, showing color accuracy (deltaE) and orther aspects relevent to lcds. All I found were subjective reviews.

*Edit*

I read part of that pdf posted above but I don't understand what this means. So it does dithering?

"(The LP2480zx’s “front-end” electronics are also, however, capable of
providing temporal dithering, if needed, to increase the delivered accuracy beyond the 10 bits/color level.
By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself.)"
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 11:44:27 AM by Cyclone » Logged
jerryrock
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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2009, 09:00:16 PM »
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Quote from: Cyclone
Thanks for your replys. I did find a couple of reviews but none that went in depth that analysed the color, showing color accuracy (deltaE) and orther aspects relevent to lcds. All I found were subjective reviews.

*Edit*

I read part of that pdf posted above but I don't understand what this means. So it does dithering?

"(The LP2480zx’s “front-end” electronics are also, however, capable of
providing temporal dithering, if needed, to increase the delivered accuracy beyond the 10 bits/color level.
By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself.)"

Again, The answers are in the material I uploaded:

Q.   Do I need a 30-bit graphics card (also called 10-bit) to use the HP DreamColor LP2480zx display?
A.   No. The HP DreamColor LP2480zx display has 36-bit precision in the HP DreamColor Engine. A full 30-bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30- bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control. However, even with an 8-bit per color channel, 24-bits per pixel graphics card, the user benefits from the HP 30-bit LCD panel because the HP DreamColor Engine still selects colors from the full 1.07 billion color palette. The benefit is more accurate gamut control and tone response and the virtual elimination of visual artifacts such as banding or contouring.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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Cyclone
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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »
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Thanks for your reply. I guess I just don't understand this sentance and why people say this monitors dithers. I'm not well versed in color management or lcd technology but maybe with 8bit graphics cards the monitor dithers the 8bit signal to 10 bit witch uses dithering for more detail?

"By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself"

In any case I don't want to keep this thread off track so thanks for your previous input.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 07:00:18 PM by Cyclone » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2010, 02:52:26 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
The DreamColor bashing continues ...

Understandably so. This just posted on the ColorSync list:
Quote
I just wasted over 90 minutes on the phone with HP Tech Support.

To make a long story short, the recently released HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution software (v1.1.0, released on 2/2/2010 by X-Rite) for the custom Display 2 colorimeter will not run on OS 10.6.2.  Of course, neither will the old v1.0.2 software, which means that at the current time, it is not possible to calibrate and profile this monitor using the DDC controls. (It is possible to use an i1 Pro and Match to profile only.)

HP's Tech Support is completely infuriating.  First, I was told that the product didn't exist, because it wasn't in their database. A few transfers later, I was told by Vishwa in Hardware Tech Support that "if the old version of the software runs on Mac OS 10.4.11 and the new version doesn't run on OS 10.6.2, you need to contact Apple and have them fix it."  Yea, sure.  Over and over, round and round, it was first Apple's problem, then X-Rite's problem, but never HP's responsibility. I was also told that I needed to "do a clean re-install of OS 10.6.2 from scratch and see if that fixes it." Do they have any reason to expect that would work? Nope.

I could never get any useful information out of anyone I spoke with at HP. They stated that there are no downloads of the software, that it only "comes in the package," and that I needed to purchase a new package to get software that would run with "current operating systems." I finally provided them with a link to X-Rite's site for both PC and Mac downloads of the current software. (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1144&Action=support&SoftwareID=959)

Unfortunately, X-Rite's response was not helpful, either, nor does their website indicate that the recently released software is not compatible with OS 10.6.2.  It's also not listed on their Snow Leopard Compatibility Page. (https://www.xrite.com/support_doc.aspx?supportid=5041).  X-rite's e-mail response:

"In response to your recent support question:

HP is set up to handle all HP DreamColor APS questions.  Please use the following link to access the HP support options:
http://www.hp.com/sbso/assist/index.html" which is of course where I began this morning.

HP's support has consistently been the worst I have ever encountered in over 30 years of dealing with hardware and software manufacturers.  While the DreamColor is a fine monitor, based on their lack of support, I would never purchase another HP product.  
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Andrew Rodney
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http://digitaldog.net/
jerryrock
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2010, 04:20:14 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Understandably so. This just posted on the ColorSync list:

I don't know why you decided to rehash this old thread. I didn't  see this comment on the Colorsync list. In any case, it is a wonderful monitor and both HP and Xrite support suck. I went through the Snow Leopard transition with the same problem and discovered the fix on my own. Here is my post addressing the issue from another forum:

Quote
I have solved my problem with the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution software (written by Xrite) and Snow Leopard. I completely uninstalled the software including the OBIWAN Driver for the Xrite puck that loaded on startup. I also deleted the associated plist file (com.xrite.ninjad.plist) located in User/Library/Launch Agents. A reboot after the software uninstall and then a reinstall of the software seems to have corrected the problem.

Xrite Tech support was not very forthcoming with a solution, they sent me the following email suggesting I do a permissions repair:

"As you probably know, Snow Leopard was released last Friday. Our engineers will require some time to complete their compatibility testing. We will update our website with relevant information and bug fixes as we complete testing on this OS. In the meantime, rebuilding your disk permissions is always a good first step in troubleshooting software issues on the Mac. You may want to see if that helps to resolve your issues with your HP DreamColor APS."

Basically their Mac support sucks...

Feel free to pass on the solution.

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Gerald J Skrocki
skrockidesign.com
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