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Author Topic: another revolutionary camera  (Read 5769 times)
wolfbellw.
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« on: October 06, 2009, 01:01:03 PM »
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There are quite a few people who celebrate the new phase df like a revolution in image making.
A new? camera that is supposed to overcome a few problems (shutter lag) that have been solved already by its predecessor - as customers were told by the company just a year ago. Basically it seems we gonna expect a light refinement of a camera that actually works ok for the majority of professionals, some minor flaws included. With the new model I see nothing that really rocks the world.
In the divers forums guys whos job is to sell cameras and others who are suspicious close to the producers are constantly posting about the incredible features of the new camera. I never heard them mention if one of the biggest pains of the afd III is finally solved: the impossibility to upload new firmware via usb. Another question I asked a few times already whether we can use the new leaf shutter lenses on the afdII/III as we have been told for the past 2 years. I still don't know but there are some hints that it is not possible (and that would be impertinent, I would go as far and call it fraud) but again no answer from the people who usually are so eloquent.
We had the disaster with the Hy6, we still dont know what leaf stands for (and I wonder if anybody dares to invest into leaf) it seems mamiya and phase are one company now still the communication with their customers totally sucks. Even the technicians at mamiya/germany are not able to give an answer to abovementioned questions.
The industry tries to force new products that hardly offer any real advantages on their customers. They sell us dead end products that have to be replaced after a year already, generously offering some upgrade programs that cost another little fortune instead of keeping their promises. 2 years we had to wait for the lf lenses to find out that they might not work on our cameras. What is wrong with phase/mamiya? Do you think that is the way to treat customers who invest sums in camera systems that were absolutely outreagous just a few years ago?
And dear colleagues how long you wanna behave like a herd of sheep that grateful celebrates every opportunity to buy another revolutionary system that again does not match your expectations? How long you wanna get screwed by the industry? Consumers do have power and when they are treated in an unpleasant way they should just think about avoiding the involved company. Or at least wait a few weeks before ordering a new product, just to give this guys a little time to think about a proper way of dealing with customers.

wolf. b.
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Jozef Zajaz
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 01:08:55 PM »
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Quote from: wolfbellw.
There are quite a few people who celebrate the new phase df like a revolution in image making.
A new? camera that is supposed to overcome a few problems (shutter lag…) that have been solved already by its predecessor - as customers were told by the company just a year ago. Basically it seems we gonna expect a light refinement of a camera that actually works ok for the majority of professionals, some minor flaws included. With the new model I see nothing that really rocks the world.
In the divers forums guys who’s job is to sell cameras and others who are suspicious close to the producers are constantly posting about the incredible features of the new camera. I never heard them mention if one of the biggest pains of the afd III is finally solved: the impossibility to upload new firmware via usb. Another question I asked a few times already whether we can use the new leaf shutter lenses on the afdII/III as we have been told for the past 2 years. I still don't know but there are some hints that it is not possible (and that would be impertinent, I would go as far and call it fraud) but again no answer from the people who usually are so eloquent.
We had the disaster with the Hy6, we still don’t know what leaf stands for (and I wonder if anybody dares to invest into leaf) it seems mamiya and phase are one company now still the communication with their customers totally sucks. Even the technicians at mamiya/germany are not able to give an answer to abovementioned questions.
The industry tries to force new products that hardly offer any real advantages on their customers. They sell us dead end products that have to be replaced after a year already, generously offering some upgrade programs that cost another little fortune instead of keeping their promises. 2 years we had to wait for the lf lenses to find out that they might not work on our cameras. What is wrong with phase/mamiya? Do you think that is the way to treat customers who invest sums in camera systems that were absolutely outreagous just a few years ago?
And dear colleagues how long you wanna behave like a herd of sheep that grateful celebrates every opportunity to buy another revolutionary system that again does not match your expectations? How long you wanna get screwed by the industry? Consumers do have power and when they are treated in an unpleasant way they should just think about avoiding the involved company. Or at least wait a few weeks before ordering a new product, just to give this guys a little time to think about a proper way of dealing with customers.

wolf. b.

In what way is shutterlag already solved?

If you wanted Leaf shutters why did you go with the p1/mamiya solution in the first place? Hasselblad would be the way to go.

I'm again surprised at the attitude of many ppl on this forum about medium format business. I would compare it with the car industry. There will always be never more advanced models but just because there is it doesn't mean your old car will stop working the same day the new model comes out. Of course the new model will have new cool stuff, bigger or more efficient motor or whatever.

I love my p30+ as it produces great images, but I don't go bitching about it when a new model comes out.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 01:13:21 PM by Jozef Zajaz » Logged
wolfbellw.
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 01:28:15 PM »
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Quote from: Jozef Zajaz
In what way is shutterlag already solved?

If you wanted Leaf shutters why did you go with the p1/mamiya solution in the first place? Hasselblad would be the way to go.

I'm again surprised at the attitude of many ppl on this forum about medium format business. I would compare it with the car industry. There will always be never more advanced models but just because there is it doesn't mean your old car will stop working the same day the new model comes out. Of course the new model will have new cool stuff, bigger or more efficient motor or whatever.

I love my p30+ as it produces great images, but I don't go bitching about it when a new model comes out.


seems you did'nt understand a few things i was talkin about
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tho_mas
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 02:37:54 PM »
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Quote from: wolfbellw.
Another question I asked a few times already whether we can use the new leaf shutter lenses on the afdII/III as we have been told for the past 2 years. I still don't know but there are some hints that it is not possible (and that would be impertinent, I would go as far and call it fraud) but again no answer from the people who usually are so eloquent.
i didn't follow that topic as i am not interessted in the mamiya camera. but i'm almost sure they repeatedly said the AFDIII is prepared to work with LS lenses (at least with a certain firmware or whatever).
Now if this turns out to be untrue ... for users who bought into this system with the LS lenses in prospect the upgrade price to the DF should be $0.

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pcunite
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 02:54:36 PM »
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The MFD industry is seeking investors, not photographers. What location photographers need has been spelled out in plain English in the 35mm world. Where is MFD today? About 4 years ago 35mm digital tech. What is the problem? Lack of investors! Please keep buying MFD (and posing about how happy you are online) so that maybe one day they can come out with a 35m equivalent.
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 03:53:56 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
Do you own any of the gear? Just an honest question.

It has been announced in multiple places that the grip will allow users to upgrade the firmware themselves on the 645DF instead of sending the camera back as was the case with the AFD II/III.

I will bet money that the new LS leaf shutter lenses will NOT be reverse compatible with the AFDIII otherwise they would have said it was, and then no one would buy the new DF...


i bought a afIII not even a year ago after beeing assured by the guys of mamiya and phase at photokina and by different dealers that compatible ls lenses are soon to come.
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Slough
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 04:24:07 PM »
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u mite think that a forum uzed by profeshnals wood hav hi standards of punktuashun and grammer

I fink u all lernt to reed and rite Inglish at this skool:

http://www.stcustards.free-online.co.uk/intro.htm
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 05:09:55 PM »
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Quote from: Slough
u mite think that a forum uzed by profeshnals wood hav hi standards of punktuashun and grammer

I fink u all lernt to reed and rite Inglish at this skool:

http://www.stcustards.free-online.co.uk/intro.htm



my dear, as a mushroom and butterfly photographer you maybe spent too much time in the woods. and you might not have the brain to realise that there are still a few non native english speakers in the world who in spite of their mediocre knowledge of english try hard to get their message over.
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Slough
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 03:48:17 PM »
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Quote from: wolfbellw.
my dear, as a mushroom and butterfly photographer you maybe spent too much time in the woods. and you might not have the brain to realise that there are still a few non native english speakers in the world who in spite of their mediocre knowledge of english try hard to get their message over.

Indeed, but breaking text into sentences with capital letters at the start, and a full stop at the end, makes the text much easier to read. In fact it can make the difference between clarity, and nonsense. If you did write sentences, your English would be pretty good. But there are others who also write in a stream of consciousness tyle who I suspect are native English speakers.

Incidentally, it is impossible to spend too much time in the woods, and doing so does not reduce ones intelligence. Fortunately.
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irgendwasblaues
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 04:33:13 PM »
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hello to the forum,

please forgive me - I am not a native speaker, too. So no question I would appreciate your kind help, Slough or John-S.

However - neglecting the discussion on language capabilities I think that wolfbellw. is right: if he was informed by Mamiya or Phase One that the upcoming leaf shutter lenses will be working with his Mamiya AFD the manufacturer should take care for that. Or do as tho_mas proprosed: provide an upgrade for an acceptable fee.

For those who are interested here is one link which might help to clarify the positions: www.captureintegration.com/2008/09/22/leaf-shutter-lenses
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bob34
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 05:36:49 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
i didn't follow that topic as i am not interessted in the mamiya camera. but i'm almost sure they repeatedly said the AFDIII is prepared to work with LS lenses (at least with a certain firmware or whatever).
Now if this turns out to be untrue ... for users who bought into this system with the LS lenses in prospect the upgrade price to the DF should be $0.



About a year ago there have been tons of Phase/Mamiya announcements and press releases telling that leaf shutter lenses will be available soon for the existing cameras.
Quite a few people bought into the system trusting the statements given to them. No wonder that those people are feeling cheated today and call it false pretences finding out that even recently bought cameras might no be prepared to work with the glass.
Phase/Mamiya should be concerned about this issue and find an acceptable way to deal with it or just give a clear statement if this is nothing but a misunderstanding.
Otherwise I would recommend a good lawyer..  
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Jozef Zajaz
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 10:55:33 AM »
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Quote from: bob34
About a year ago there have been tons of Phase/Mamiya announcements and press releases telling that leaf shutter lenses will be available soon for the existing cameras.
Quite a few people bought into the system trusting the statements given to them. No wonder that those people are feeling cheated today and call it false pretences finding out that even recently bought cameras might no be prepared to work with the glass.
Phase/Mamiya should be concerned about this issue and find an acceptable way to deal with it or just give a clear statement if this is nothing but a misunderstanding.
Otherwise I would recommend a good lawyer..


My dealer says the new lenses will work with the old camera but with some limitations.
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2009, 04:45:40 AM »
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Quote from: bob34
About a year ago there have been tons of Phase/Mamiya announcements and press releases telling that leaf shutter lenses will be available soon for the existing cameras.
Quite a few people bought into the system trusting the statements given to them. No wonder that those people are feeling cheated today and call it false pretences finding out that even recently bought cameras might no be prepared to work with the glass.
Phase/Mamiya should be concerned about this issue and find an acceptable way to deal with it or just give a clear statement if this is nothing but a misunderstanding.
Otherwise I would recommend a good lawyer..


Well, a lawyer spoils the party...
Im still expecting Phase/Mamiya to give us what we deserve.
Everybody who bought into the system after the lf lenses where shown at photokina and announced for Q109
should have the ability to use them in the near future - without spending extra for a new camera.
I would consider a class-action lawsuit of people who are affected only as the last resort.
People who are thinking about that might contact me.
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 05:31:54 AM »
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I wonder how well Slough can write in any other language but his own...
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tho_mas
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 05:35:12 AM »
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Quote from: Jozef Zajaz
My dealer says the new lenses will work with the old camera but with some limitations.
possibly they work without LS functionality and sync at 1/125''  
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jing q
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 09:44:32 AM »
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I gave up on Mamiya a long time ago when they killed the 45-90mm after promising it for ages.
Save yourself the hassle and quit the system while you can, and do not believe ANY promises from medium format sellers
this is the hard lesson I learnt from using Mamiya and using Leaf and waiting over a year just to get a windows version
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 06:01:32 AM »
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Interesting statement by Doug Peterson of Capture Integration:

..these lenses are not completed yet and R+D is ongoing as to whether they will be able to be made to work on the Phase One 645 AF. We don't know anything more, and frankly no one knows anything more because, as I said, the R+D is still being done...
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Christopher
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 02:18:50 PM »
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Quote from: wolfbellw.
Interesting statement by Doug Peterson of Capture Integration:

..these lenses are not completed yet and R+D is ongoing as to whether they will be able to be made to work on the Phase One 645 AF. We don't know anything more, and frankly no one knows anything more because, as I said, the R+D is still being done...


You should have also quoted that all the R+D that is going on, is on FIRMWARE only.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 02:38:21 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher
You should have also quoted that all the R+D that is going on, is on FIRMWARE only.

And continuing in the quote noting that R+D continues on bodies and lenses not only until they ship, but well beyond. Canon/Nikon/Phase/Hasselblad continue to develop their body and lens firmware for months or years after the product ships. I know everyone wants absolutely definitive answers, but when the answers are "under construction" we just can't give any.
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cyberean
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 08:28:56 PM »
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check out the size of my sensor ...
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