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Author Topic: Fastest MF FF back frame-rate for H?  (Read 10821 times)
billy
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2009, 10:09:28 AM »
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"I just set the Sharpness to 3"


I have the canon 1dsmk3 and even though I know the files are soft due to the AA filter I thought it was bad to sharpen the files before they get resized for final output, is this correct? Typically I process out the high res tiffs and low res jpgs, deliver to client with a note saying "unsharpened" and hope for the best although I know that 50% of the time the client has no clue what "unsharpened" means and send their final files in for output unsharpened.

Should I be sharpening my canon files at full size? I use C1 Pro V4 by the way.
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pcunite
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2009, 08:18:19 PM »
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If your not printing large it does not make good economic sense to purchase MFD. Look at what the H3DII-39 ($35,000 new) are going for now used... $12,000 ... not more than two years old! I assume that anyone using MFD is forced to use them so that they can keep up with that invisible customer crying out for more... well your now outdone and need the H4D-60. This is getting absurd.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2009, 09:22:31 PM »
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Quote from: pcunite
If your not printing large it does not make good economic sense to purchase MFD. Look at what the H3DII-39 ($35,000 new) are going for now used... $12,000 ... not more than two years old! I assume that anyone using MFD is forced to use them so that they can keep up with that invisible customer crying out for more... well your now outdone and need the H4D-60. This is getting absurd.

I understand what you're saying, but...

I still maintain that there is a place in the market for a "people-shooter MF back". These, to me, would be the Specs. No idea if it's buildable or marketable:

1. 22 MP, max. Anything larger than that, most of the data is thrown away.
2. Two frames per second, recycle.
3. Price point: $9000-12,000 USD, for the digital back.
4. Usable ASA up to 800.
5. Largish chip, similar in size to p45, to keep large viewfinder image, and to maximize wideangle lens use.
6. Hi-resolution LCD, similar to Nikon or 5D2.

Even though Canon/Nikon is fine, there are still many people that simply prefer the look and feel of medium format cameras. However, it seems that the Megapixel Race is on, and the Retail Prices are headed thru the roof, at a time when the economy couldn't be in a worse condition. There's nothing wrong with letting the P65+ (or whatever the Hassie equivalent) be your Lexus, but there's also a need for a Camry too.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 09:26:47 PM by gwhitf » Logged
shelby_lewis
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2009, 12:55:11 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
It amazes me, these Lab Coat Guys on this board, (over)analyzing one camera to the next -- it's as if, if they ever take an actual photograph, that there's some law in their state that says, "You've got to deliver this image normal, untouched, unmanipulated". So, as a result, they feel compelled to find the best dynamic range out there. Or whatever else kind of Spec.

I hope this wasn't pointed at me... I do make a living with my cameras (mostly 5dmkII's).

I get what your saying and I definitely understand that getting the shot is foremost. But, I could honestly care less if you get your thumbprint on any camera you work to death. Any of us working FT in photography are going to put our thumbprint on our work, regardless of the camera. Some may have a pretty inelegant thumbprint, but it's there.

My remarks were actually just about the 5Dii. As someone that shoots them, they just don't light my fire.

... no matter how artistic i am or how sensitively I light my subjects. I was genuinely interested in why you find them meaningful for your work.

Guess it's just different strokes for different folks... and I guess this is getting off topic. I wasn't asking for a rant or to be called a Lab Coat Guy... just wondering why you liked the 5dii in such high stress conditions. I honestly think it's ill suited and quite frustrating most of the time for high paced work. That's a technical issue (which is what I was addressing), not an artistic one (iphones and all, John,   )

I'll let you guys get back on-topic. Sorry for the simple question.
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ztefff
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2009, 03:44:41 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
For shooting people/lifestyle, and environmental portraits, on the run, loose and free, untethered, can anyone tell me the fastest, most responsive MF fullish-frame back that's out there right now, shipping, for the Hasselblad H? Something like two frames a second recycle, or so? I'm wanting the most Viewfinder real estate, so the cropping backs are out, ie P30+ etc, P40+ etc. Trying to find a balance between large large viewfinder image and fast recycle. Secondary wish list would be 3" LCD, but that would probably narrow it down to Hasselblad-brand backs, which could be fine I guess.

In short, I'm wanting to keep the optical qualities from my H lenses, but shoot relatively fast, like the 5D2 feeling, but also be able to trust the LCD rendering pretty well.

Does this back exist? It's a last-ditch effort to justify keeping the H system. Leaf A75s? Hasselblad something? Megapixels do not matter; the main thing is the speed/recycle of the back, and the LCD quality. Thanks.

You should check out the new Leaf Aptus-II 5, that will come out in a week or two.  Itīs not as fast as the 54s (for some silly reason), but at 0.9 s/f its better than most. Download spec pdf here: http://sn.im/s8ite .

Still cant understand why they didnīt make it as fast as the 54s (they managed 0,65 s/f on a 22mp back several years ago...) and why the iso donīt go up to 800.  This back has the biggest pixels in the whole Leaf lineup!?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2009, 06:17:56 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I still maintain that there is a place in the market for a "people-shooter MF back". These, to me, would be the Specs. No idea if it's buildable or marketable:

1. 22 MP, max. Anything larger than that, most of the data is thrown away.
2. Two frames per second, recycle.
3. Price point: $9000-12,000 USD, for the digital back.
4. Usable ASA up to 800.
5. Largish chip, similar in size to p45, to keep large viewfinder image, and to maximize wideangle lens use.
6. Hi-resolution LCD, similar to Nikon or 5D2.
oh my, actually, if you read these specs you'll wonder why it is not possible.
These specs are very, very modest IMO. You even didn't mention live view and in camera processing (which is maybe more important to you as the actual LCD size?)
This undemanding list clearly shows the dilemma of MFD.
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Juanito
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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2009, 09:49:09 AM »
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1. 22 MP, max. Anything larger than that, most of the data is thrown away.
2. Two frames per second, recycle.
3. Price point: $9000-12,000 USD, for the digital back.
4. Usable ASA up to 800.
5. Largish chip, similar in size to p45, to keep large viewfinder image, and to maximize wideangle lens use.
6. Hi-resolution LCD, similar to Nikon or 5D2.
I'll echo most of that. The only thing I don't need is faster FPS. When I was investing in MFDB, it was a big concern, but now that I'm using it, I realize that even my 1 frame per 1.2 sec is as fast as I ever shoot.

Yesterday, I had a shoot with five sets spread out over a large property. We never knew what set we'd be using from minute to minute since it was up to the subjects to decide. I had between 4 and 6 strobes at each setup and we were constantly tweaking things. I'd intended to use my Hasselblad with Leaf back for the shoot and shoot tethered.

I think I used it for one setup and then I switched to my 5D MII. The hi res LCD made all the difference in allowing me to work quickly while still getting the look that I wanted. There was just no time for me to try to set up my laptop and shoot tethered for all the shots. The LCD on my Leaf back sucks and really can't be used to judge anything other than global adjustments.

On the other hand, the 5D really shone. The files look great. The client doesn't care what I use and resolution isn't an issue. More pixels definitely isn't the answer for me. I'll take ease of use and flexibility any day.

John
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 09:51:04 AM by Juanito » Logged

gwhitf
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2009, 10:39:11 AM »
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Quote from: Juanito
Yesterday, I had a shoot with five sets spread out over a large property. We never knew what set we'd be using from minute to minute since it was up to the subjects to decide. I had between 4 and 6 strobes at each setup and we were constantly tweaking things. I'd intended to use my Hasselblad with Leaf back for the shoot and shoot tethered. I think I used it for one setup and then I switched to my 5D MII. The hi res LCD made all the difference in allowing me to work quickly while still getting the look that I wanted. There was just no time for me to try to set up my laptop and shoot tethered for all the shots. The LCD on my Leaf back sucks and really can't be used to judge anything other than global adjustments. On the other hand, the 5D really shone. The files look great. The client doesn't care what I use and resolution isn't an issue. More pixels definitely isn't the answer for me. I'll take ease of use and flexibility any day.

There you have it. I wonder how many other commercial photographers could sing that same exact song?

When you've got Engineers designing cameras, apprarently without taking feedback from their customers, you end up with an unusable LCD. And I'm betting these Engineers think that photographers can actually learn anything from looking at a Histogram, instead of the actual photograph.

The train is leaving the station, and the entire MF industry is getting left at the gate. Very sad, but they dug their own grave.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2009, 01:09:48 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
The train is leaving the station, and the entire MF industry is getting left at the gate. Very sad, but they dug their own grave.

Phase One profit 2009 > Phase One profit 2008

From any one vantage point it's often very hard to judge the success or failure of an entire industry.
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pcunite
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« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2009, 01:40:21 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I still maintain that there is a place in the market for a "people-shooter MF back". These, to me, would be the Specs. No idea if it's buildable or marketable:

1. 22 MP, max. Anything larger than that, most of the data is thrown away.
2. Two frames per second, recycle.
3. Price point: $9000-12,000 USD, for the digital back.
4. Usable ASA up to 800.
5. Largish chip, similar in size to p45, to keep large viewfinder image, and to maximize wideangle lens use.
6. Hi-resolution LCD, similar to Nikon or 5D2.

Point taken and I would even like such a camera. 22mp of the finest pixels the company knows how to make in the most enjoyable body available. The tech seems to all be here now. What is the problem? (I ask rhetorically)
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bcooter
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2009, 02:04:55 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I still maintain that there is a place in the market for a "people-shooter MF back". These, to me, would be the Specs. No idea if it's buildable or marketable:

I doubt seriously if you will get what you want because you and a few hundred thousand others have been asking for the same thing for a long time.

OK I take that back, you have what you want and Canon makes it for a lot less than $12,000 and has a waiting list of 15,000 buyers.

The only thing is it's a 2:3 crop instead of a 4:5 but that's why God made gaffer tape.

Let's be realistic.  If any of the specialty camera companies could make the camera you want at the price you suggest they would.

That doesn't mean that medium format is dead it just means that the cameras have become more of a specicalty item.  

This also doesn't mean that quality photography is dead it just means that digital has come full circle and after a point a few dozen extra megapixels really isn't that noticeable anymore.

The equipment we need today should be  to be ready for the future, not the past.

BC
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 03:19:16 AM by bcooter » Logged
FlashDB
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2009, 03:21:52 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
1. Shooting at 15 megapixels produces a VERY good file which could be easily compared to (or even beats) a 22 megapixel dSLR.
2. At 15 megapixels the base ISO of the camera is upgraded to ISO200 with ISO 400 and ISO 800 being very good and 1600 and 3200 producing a slightly grained look that I find to be film like (if you want baby-butt smooth files then you never want the last two ISOs on a camera, but the "noise" on the 65+ IMO is a very pleasing grain).
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson

Hi Doug

Do you have images to back up your claims?
I hear from more and more people that the P65+ even at ISO 400 delivers a lot of noise and that exposures above 10 sec. at high ISO is a no-go?
What happened to their quality, my four year old P25 can do nice exposures at ISO800 ?

/David
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2009, 03:41:23 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Phase One profit 2009 > Phase One profit 2008

That mass volume purchase of display screens in year 2001 has really finally started to payoff!  Can't wait until they use those up and purchase a newer batch!
 
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2009, 05:00:42 PM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
That mass volume purchase of display screens in year 2001 has really finally started to payoff!  Can't wait until they use those up and purchase a newer batch!
 

It will also be nice when Hasselblad finally runs out of crappy silver/grey plastic.

I'm not going to go back and find the text to quote, but I also see a real need for a MF back that shoots 2+ FPS at 800+ ASA for more than 10 frames in a burst. The other specs listed seemed reasonable, even boring.

Most likely it will come from a new player in the market, out of the blue. And (suddenly) 6 months later, Hasselblad and Phase One will announce identical systems. Phase One will talk about how they worked tirelessly with "real pros" to develop such a ground breaking tool and Hasselblad will market their "revolutionary" vision.

-c
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