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Author Topic: images in lightroom&photoshop oversaturated on wide gamut monitor  (Read 5693 times)
rinzing
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« on: October 10, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »
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Hello,

I've recently purchased a NEC 2690 monitor then calibrated it with Spectraview and Eye One - using default basic settings. I use the monitor as a secondary display with a Macbook pro laptop in a dual monitor mode.

I understand that colours in non colour managed applications, web browsers and non tagged images, appear oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor - and that's ok, because for internet and word processing I use my laptop display anyway.

However all my pictures in colour managed applications, such as in Photoshop and Lightroom appear on the NEC monitor oversaturated as well.
I don't have any experience with a wide gamut monitor and so far I couldn't come up with a solution to rectify this problem.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
Rinzing
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rinzing
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 01:53:22 PM »
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Quote from: rinzing
Hello,

I've recently purchased a NEC 2690 monitor then calibrated it with Spectraview and Eye One - using default basic settings. I use the monitor as a secondary display with a Macbook pro laptop in a dual monitor mode.

I understand that colours in non colour managed applications, web browsers and non tagged images, appear oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor - and that's ok, because for internet and word processing I use my laptop display anyway.

However all my pictures in colour managed applications, such as in Photoshop and Lightroom appear on the NEC monitor oversaturated as well.
I don't have any experience with a wide gamut monitor and so far I couldn't come up with a solution to rectify this problem.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
Rinzing

Since I haven't received any suggestions, I'll answer my own post, perhaps this will be useful for those who may find themselves in a similar situation.

I've contacted NEC costumer service regarding this problem and this is what they told me (quote from email I received):

the problem currently on your system is Snow Leopard!
Apple has changed a lot of things in the ColorSync system. And because of this it is hard to say what the problem is.
One problem is that you are using two monitors right now. Only the primary monitor can be calibrated correctly right now with the SpectraView Profiler. So if you want to calibrate the second screen, you have to set it to the main screen first.
Then the next problem is that not all application do support Snow Leopard correctly right now.

Until this point I can only say that you have two options.
No. 1: You have to wait for updates of Snow Leopard and the applications.
No. 2: You have to switch back to Leopard (10.5.Cool where everything is working fine until now.


with best regards.
Tim Seher
Your basICCare Team

I've also contacted Apple, and they gave me a link (I followed instructions, set gamma to 1.8 instead of 2.2, but this didn't solve the problem of oversaturation)
In case anyone's interested, this is the link they've given me:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3712

Best wishes,
R
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Dale Allyn
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 06:17:32 PM »
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Actually, I don't (or may not) quite agree with NEC that what you are seeing is strictly due to Snow Leopard (depending on degree, etc.). I too have the 2690 (v2) and I did a lot of research before buying it, but my experience differs somewhat from what many people post regarding over-saturated images, etc. Andrew Rodney (here on the boards) has explained it quite well in several threads discussing the merits and concerns with using wide-gamut displays for viewing and processing certain image types.

Now, to be clear, I'm not using Snow Leopard, but I also have some images which appear over-saturated when viewed on the 2690 in various apps. This is particularly troublesome when trying to prepare images for web or to send to a client who will order prints form an sRGB type of photo-finisher. The vast majority of my work is printed by me on a printer with a wide gamut, so that portion of the flow is fine. However, preparing images to display on my site can be a challenge. My solution is to buy a second display which is sRGB for web prep and to accommodate outsourced printing. But for now I have a second, older Apple display, which allows me to view the image on an sRGB display. I also have a couple of other Macs around to confirm stuff.

I'm not suggesting that Snow Leopard isn't causing extra goofiness, but just offering a heads-up for other possible issues. An easy way to see if you're dealing with an OS issue would be to boot from a drive containing an older OS version.

Good luck.
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kers
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 07:14:23 PM »
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Hello Rinzing,

I think it might be the snowleopard changes in colorsync.

I  noticed ( in my test with snowleopard) my colorsync software had a hard time finding my own made profiles.

So see in the system preferences if the colorsync profile used is indeed the one you need. ( monitors/colour)

If it is the right profile then check if there is a difference in appearance in safari ( should work fine with system preferences) and photoshop.

If there is- probably photoshop is not using the profile...

good luck !


 pieter kers
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Pieter Kers
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rinzing
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 10:40:50 AM »
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Hi Dale,

I appreciate your comments, thank you.

I uninstalled Snow Leopard and with the previous OS the dual mode seems to work fine. All I needed to do is to deactivate the OpenGL hardware acceleration in Photoshop, and images now display correctly on both screens (NEC 2690 and Macbook Pro) regardless to which is the primary display. Meaning that the extreme oversaturation has disappeared when images are displayed in Lightroom or Photoshop.

However - and this is where I would appreciate your advice - there is still a grade of 'oversaturation' (or extra colour richness) present in Lightroom or Photoshop when I compare how images appear on the Macbook Pro. I suspect this where wide gamut display differ from sRGB ones? As mentioned in my earlier post, I don't have any familiarity with wide gamut monitors, so I didn't know what to expect. My idea was to make use of the aRGB setting in my camera and of the possibility of editing in aRGB or in prophotoRGB in Lightroom and Photoshop.

But at present I mainly work for the web (I don't presently own a wide-gamut compatible printer) and not being aware that what I see on a wide gamut is NOT what I get after editing and uploading to the web - I'm afraid I made a mistake by purchasing a wide gamut monitor.  I tried the sRGB setting on the NEC2690, but to my eyes the results weren't satisfactory, colours looked very pale, lifeless - compared to how they appear on the Macbook Pro's display (I tried various colour profiles in the sRGB setting, images are pale in profiles that were created for sRGB and (understandably) very pale and dark in profiles created for wide gamut).

In theory I still have two days to return/exchange this monitor. Do you think that I would be better off with the NEC2490 for webwork? I understand the 2490 is an sRGB monitor, so I expect colours would be very similar in Photoshop and after export on the web?

Another question is - is there any substantial benefit in working on a wide gamut monitor in prophoto setting then uploading the image as a JPEG in sRGB? Or shooting/editing in sRGB on an sRGB monitor could in theory lead to the same results?
And if there is any difference, on your opinion is it worth hanging on the wide gamut monitor with the discomfort of not getting what I'm seeing (and by monitoring things for sRGB output on the Macbook display)?


As you can tell, I'm completely new to this (I hope I didn't mix up things/terms too much :-) I've only used my Macbook Pro for editing before. I can't afford right now to buy a second monitor - and I'm not really sure either I really need it, so the question is really, based on what I've said, on your opinion shall I stick with the 2690 or exchange it for a different model (such as the 2490)?

Thanks for any support you can give,
Best wishes,
Rinzing



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rinzing
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 10:48:36 AM »
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Hello Rinzing,

I think it might be the snowleopard changes in colorsync.

I  noticed ( in my test with snowleopard) my colorsync software had a hard time finding my own made profiles.

So see in the system preferences if the colorsync profile used is indeed the one you need. ( monitors/colour)

If it is the right profile then check if there is a difference in appearance in safari ( should work fine with system preferences) and photoshop.

If there is- probably photoshop is not using the profile...

good luck !


Thanks a lot Pieter,

I've booted my laptop with the earlier OS and after making some adjustments in Photoshop images seem to appear correctly both on the laptop's and the NEC screens. Now my dilemma is that I'm not sure if I can really make use of a wide gamut monitor or I would be ok with an sRGB one, since I mainly work for web at the moment (see my post for Dale for more info if interested).
Once again, thanks,
Rinzing


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Dale Allyn
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 11:03:36 AM »
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Quote from: rinzing
Hi Dale,

I appreciate your comments, thank you.

I uninstalled Snow Leopard and with the previous OS the dual mode seems to work fine. All I needed to do is to deactivate the OpenGL hardware acceleration in Photoshop, and images now display correctly on both screens (NEC 2690 and Macbook Pro) regardless to which is the primary display. Meaning that the extreme oversaturation has disappeared when images are displayed in Lightroom or Photoshop.

However - and this is where I would appreciate your advice - there is still a grade of 'oversaturation' (or extra colour richness) present in Lightroom or Photoshop when I compare how images appear on the Macbook Pro. I suspect this where wide gamut display differ from sRGB ones? As mentioned in my earlier post, I don't have any familiarity with wide gamut monitors, so I didn't know what to expect. My idea was to make use of the aRGB setting in my camera and of the possibility of editing in aRGB or in prophotoRGB in Lightroom and Photoshop.

But at present I mainly work for the web (I don't presently own a wide-gamut compatible printer) and not being aware that what I see on a wide gamut is NOT what I get after editing and uploading to the web - I'm afraid I made a mistake by purchasing a wide gamut monitor.  I tried the sRGB setting on the NEC2690, but to my eyes the results weren't satisfactory, colours looked very pale, lifeless - compared to how they appear on the Macbook Pro's display (I tried various colour profiles in the sRGB setting, images are pale in profiles that were created for sRGB and (understandably) very pale and dark in profiles created for wide gamut).

In theory I still have two days to return/exchange this monitor. Do you think that I would be better off with the NEC2490 for webwork? I understand the 2490 is an sRGB monitor, so I expect colours would be very similar in Photoshop and after export on the web?

Another question is - is there any substantial benefit in working on a wide gamut monitor in prophoto setting then uploading the image as a JPEG in sRGB? Or shooting/editing in sRGB on an sRGB monitor could in theory lead to the same results?
And if there is any difference, on your opinion is it worth hanging on the wide gamut monitor with the discomfort of not getting what I'm seeing (and by monitoring things for sRGB output on the Macbook display)?


As you can tell, I'm completely new to this (I hope I didn't mix up things/terms too much :-) I've only used my Macbook Pro for editing before. I can't afford right now to buy a second monitor - and I'm not really sure either I really need it, so the question is really, based on what I've said, on your opinion shall I stick with the 2690 or exchange it for a different model (such as the 2490)?

Thanks for any support you can give,
Best wishes,
Rinzing

Rinzing,

If I were to give you the short answer I would probably suggest that a wide gamut display is not ideal for your application. In other words, I'd suggest a quality sRGB display such as the 2490 or the Apple 30" (although the newest Apple 30" is said to be not as good as the older version, and one pays a lot for the aesthetic of the display with Apple).

In my opinion, a wide gamut display (or at least the NEC 2690wuxi2, which I own) is not ideal for processing files for web display or sRGB print output such as most on-line printers, Costco, etc. use. A wide gamut display is appropriate if one is preparing images for a quality inkjet printer such as the Canon imagePROGRAF printers, the photo-specific Epsons, etc. The sRGB setting of the NEC 2690 is not the same as a quality sRGB display as it is more of an "emulation". If you think it will be some time before you will want to print on a printer which has a wide gamut I think that you'll experience more "joy" if working on a display other than the 2690. My personal experience is different than I anticipated and I find myself constantly moving an image over to another display to prepare it for my site or send as a proof to someone.

None of this is to suggest that you should avoid aRGB on your camera. That's a different top (sort of) and one needs more info.

I'll look for a link to a thread in which others addressed this display question and post it here if I find it.

Edit: Here's the link. In particular, look at Andrew Rodney's post (#3) and see if that helps with your decision.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 11:29:43 AM by DFAllyn » Logged

walter.sk
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 09:54:05 AM »
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I've been using my NEC 3090, profiled with SpectraViewII on a WINXP machine.  I work with CS4, LR and DXO, and most of my photo work is for printing on an HP Z3100.  I work on 16-bit Tiffs in Prophoto space, and things are just fine.

However, when I convert to jpeg for projectors or, occasionally, for the web, I convert to 8-bit and sRGB.  Whether in Photoshop or not, these look horribly oversaturated on my display.  However, they work just fine when projected on an sRGB projector, and when viewed on the web with sRGB displays, so I don't worry about the over-saturated appearance on my NEC 3090.

I agree with Andrew Rodney, though, that if my main work was for the web I would have to get a second monitor with a narrower display gamut.
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rinzing
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 02:40:36 PM »
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Quote from: DFAllyn
Rinzing,

If I were to give you the short answer I would probably suggest that a wide gamut display is not ideal for your application. In other words, I'd suggest a quality sRGB display such as the 2490 or the Apple 30" (although the newest Apple 30" is said to be not as good as the older version, and one pays a lot for the aesthetic of the display with Apple).

In my opinion, a wide gamut display (or at least the NEC 2690wuxi2, which I own) is not ideal for processing files for web display or sRGB print output such as most on-line printers, Costco, etc. use. A wide gamut display is appropriate if one is preparing images for a quality inkjet printer such as the Canon imagePROGRAF printers, the photo-specific Epsons, etc. The sRGB setting of the NEC 2690 is not the same as a quality sRGB display as it is more of an "emulation". If you think it will be some time before you will want to print on a printer which has a wide gamut I think that you'll experience more "joy" if working on a display other than the 2690. My personal experience is different than I anticipated and I find myself constantly moving an image over to another display to prepare it for my site or send as a proof to someone.

None of this is to suggest that you should avoid aRGB on your camera. That's a different top (sort of) and one needs more info.

I'll look for a link to a thread in which others addressed this display question and post it here if I find it.

Edit: Here's the link. In particular, look at Andrew Rodney's post (#3) and see if that helps with your decision.

Hello Dale,

First of all  I'd like to thank you for your support, you've been very helpful.
Secondly I'd like to say that I had a look at your website and I very much liked your photos - I especially love your 'People in Thailand' set as well as the black and white images.
I've been recently trying to find a suitable photography course here in Nottingham, UK or to find someone whom I could learn from, but I didn't find the right person or course yet, so I inspire myself by looking at others' work on the web, reading about photography and of course by experimenting with my camera. I'd love to be able to learn from someone like you, not only because of the quality of your photos, but because the way you helped me shows that you must have good pedagogic skills too.

Now back to NEC2690. I've been thinking a lot what would be the best thing to do and since I've got this display, I decided that I'm going to keep it and I'll start to experiment with printing - as soon as I can afford a wide gamut printer. I've read some other threads here on LL and other sites too (plus I've been watching some of the LL tutorials - which I very much enjoyed!) and one printer that caught my attention in particular was the Epson 3800. Again, I don't know a lot about printing, so I would appreciate some tips, ideas.  
For webwork I'll be mainly using the Macbook pro for now (I will probably end up continuously dragging images from one display to the other just the way you described :-) Then in the future, in a year or two I'll buy an sRGB display. Who knows, maybe Apple will come out with a matte 24 inch display meanwhile... but it doesn't necessarily have to be Apple, as you said, one pays a high premium for the design with Apple...

I'm new to LL and my first impression is that this community is friendly, professional and very supportive.

Thanks Dale,
Best wishes,
Rinzing


 

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rinzing
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 02:51:21 PM »
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Quote from: walter.sk
I've been using my NEC 3090, profiled with SpectraViewII on a WINXP machine.  I work with CS4, LR and DXO, and most of my photo work is for printing on an HP Z3100.  I work on 16-bit Tiffs in Prophoto space, and things are just fine.

However, when I convert to jpeg for projectors or, occasionally, for the web, I convert to 8-bit and sRGB.  Whether in Photoshop or not, these look horribly oversaturated on my display.  However, they work just fine when projected on an sRGB projector, and when viewed on the web with sRGB displays, so I don't worry about the over-saturated appearance on my NEC 3090.

I agree with Andrew Rodney, though, that if my main work was for the web I would have to get a second monitor with a narrower display gamut.

Thank you Walter, I have decided to keep this monitor and start experimenting with printing and as soon as I can afford I'll buy a second sRGB monitor for webwork.
Your 3090 must be grand!
Best wishes,
Rinzing
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Dale Allyn
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 01:27:34 AM »
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rinzing,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm humbled by your remarks.

Experimenting is good with things like photography and printing, etc. There is lots of good info here, and as you mention, in the tutorials on the main LL sight. When you are ready to delve more deeply into printing I might suggest that you consider Michael's and Jeff's "From Camera to Print" video. It provides a lot of good information. You may not need it right at the start, but then again, it might make the beginning steps more enjoyable as well.

And I think you've made a good choice if you plan to experiment with printing, since you have your MBP for examining images before posting to the web, etc.

Good luck to you.

Dale
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