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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 5 coming  (Read 42398 times)
mcfoto
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« on: October 12, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »
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From BJP
Quote:
In an interview with BJP, Dov Kalinski, CEO of Leaf Imaging, confirms that the new company, which was formed in a partnership between Phase One and Leaf’s management team, is now up and running.

‘Leaf Imaging is a new legal entity, but otherwise we have not moved,’ says Kalinski. ‘We’re in the same place in the Kodak building. We’re in full production mode with the Aptus backs.’

In fact, he adds, ‘we’ll be announcing shortly the release of the Aptus 5, an entry-level product. We see a need for entry-level products with aggressive pricing to respond to the changes that are happening in the market.’

In July, Henrik Hakonsson explained that after its acquisition of the Leaf brand, Phase One would continue to support the Aptus line. ‘There is a strong following for Leaf's camera back. We would rather offer customers greater choice than just one cheaper integrated system,' he said.

Kalinski has also hinted at the release, before the end of the year, of a new version of the Leaf Capture software. He adds: ‘Part of the advantages of being part of Phase One is the collaboration on the software side. Now, the Capture One software also supports Leaf products. So our customers have a choice between Capture One and Leaf Capture.’
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gwhitf
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 05:04:43 PM »
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I wish them well, but who in their right mind would buy anything with Leaf brand right now, as shaky and murky as everything seems? Isn't this just ripe to be a story, where you buy it today, and in a year, the Leaf brand is folded into some other company, or folded entirely, and some guy in Cleveland, in his garage, is assigned to repairing and servicing them? And that's after he's finished working on the lawn mowers.

Buying a Leaf product today seems similar to buying a Saturn car -- one day you think they survived the crash, and then the next day, Penske walks, and the whole Saturn brand is left in ashes.

Some of these managers need to take off their lab coats, and take a class in Human Behavior.

I've still got my Edsel digital back, but I use it to hold down receipts on my desk, when I've got the window thrown open.

No matter how aggressively they're priced, in the end, we're still talking ten or fifteen THOUSAND dollars. Who's willing to throw that out the window? I'd advise Phase to buy a case of those James Russell stickers, and slap a PhaseOne logo on that Leaf back, or better yet, run off a bunch of Red Dots on an Epson printer, so that people can feel (mildly) confident about their purchase.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 05:10:07 PM by gwhitf » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 09:43:34 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
Wonder what "aggressive pricing" will be. A22's are going for about $5K now. An Aptus 5 (the same thing with a new screen) won't have a market if it's higher than $7-8K. You can buy 3 x 5DII's at that point.

Not to mention the 54s, which is a faster back than the A22 or Aptus 5II, can be had for around $6k.  I have my doubts about the aggressive nature of the pricing.  Remember the Mamiya branded Phase backs?  P30's and P45s?  They were priced aggressively, aggressively high for legacy backs.
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DanielStone
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 09:58:15 PM »
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If I had the need for a digital back, and had the CASH (not credit, or loans) but cold hard CASH, I might buy a Leaf back.

but right now, film is giving me what I want, and how I like it, albeit wet-mount scanned(drum or IqSmart Flatbed).

I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs

and its much cheaper too . I can shoot a 4x5 sheet of portra for roughly $3-4 a shot, 8x10 is $8-9 per shot. And that's with dip n' dunk processing to boot.

15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish  it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch

sorry to rant on my first post. I don't shoot product or studio much (where I see digi backs mostly), but I can't see how Phase and Leaf(now Phase too) can charge such an obscene amount of money for a product that will be replaced by something newer and shinier, double the pixel count in 2-3 years.

My sinar p2 is still humming along, and I'm the 3rd user! I bought it from a guy I assisted for, along with a slew of schneider db lenses (90, 150, 210,360) and an 8x10 rear standard, bag bellows, basically the whole lot, for a week's work (12hr days) in studio. He bought it from a guy HE assisted for in the 80's. Its been into Sinar ONCE! I call that an investment!

why can't the companies give photographers what THEY want, not what the company's surveys and charts say they want. They need to talk to more photographers, people who actually use their products on a daily basis, and make money with their products. Every new generation should be better, not just re-polished and a few more pixels. For 15-45K or more, we should really be getting the best that the market and the manufacturer can offer. No exceptions....

« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 10:07:20 PM by DanielStone » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 10:48:41 PM »
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My thoughts exactly, although I do have a back that I hardly use.  I mainly shoot B&W film, and there is nothing digital that comes close to silver.  Nothing.



Quote from: DanielStone
If I had the need for a digital back, and had the CASH (not credit, or loans) but cold hard CASH, I might buy a Leaf back.

but right now, film is giving me what I want, and how I like it, albeit wet-mount scanned(drum or IqSmart Flatbed).

I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs

and its much cheaper too . I can shoot a 4x5 sheet of portra for roughly $3-4 a shot, 8x10 is $8-9 per shot. And that's with dip n' dunk processing to boot.

15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish  it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch

sorry to rant on my first post. I don't shoot product or studio much (where I see digi backs mostly), but I can't see how Phase and Leaf(now Phase too) can charge such an obscene amount of money for a product that will be replaced by something newer and shinier, double the pixel count in 2-3 years.

My sinar p2 is still humming along, and I'm the 3rd user! I bought it from a guy I assisted for, along with a slew of schneider db lenses (90, 150, 210,360) and an 8x10 rear standard, bag bellows, basically the whole lot, for a week's work (12hr days) in studio. He bought it from a guy HE assisted for in the 80's. Its been into Sinar ONCE! I call that an investment!

why can't the companies give photographers what THEY want, not what the company's surveys and charts say they want. They need to talk to more photographers, people who actually use their products on a daily basis, and make money with their products. Every new generation should be better, not just re-polished and a few more pixels. For 15-45K or more, we should really be getting the best that the market and the manufacturer can offer. No exceptions....
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 03:28:12 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Not to mention the 54s, which is a faster back than the A22 or Aptus 5II, can be had for around $6k.  I have my doubts about the aggressive nature of the pricing.  Remember the Mamiya branded Phase backs?  P30's and P45s?  They were priced aggressively, aggressively high for legacy backs.

The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.

If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.

The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.

Yair
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Christopher
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 04:08:18 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.

If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.

The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.

Yair


All nice and good, but what you kinda missed to mention was a price. I know you can't tell us, BUT that is the main aspects if it is worth the extra. It easly could not, if the price is around 12k.
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yaya
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 04:11:52 AM »
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Quote from: Christopher
All nice and good, but what you kinda missed to mention was a price. I know you can't tell us, BUT that is the main aspects if it is worth the extra. It easly could not, if the price is around 12k.

It is quite a lot less than 12K  
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 06:01:24 AM »
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Quote from: xinchenc
$5999.95

Do you know the specs? If this back can run on C1 Pro that will be an added bonus!
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 06:22:52 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I wish them well, but who in their right mind would buy anything with Leaf brand right now, as shaky and murky as everything seems? Isn't this just ripe to be a story, where you buy it today, and in a year, the Leaf brand is folded into some other company, or folded entirely, and some guy in Cleveland, in his garage, is assigned to repairing and servicing them? And that's after he's finished working on the lawn mowers.

Buying a Leaf product today seems similar to buying a Saturn car -- one day you think they survived the crash, and then the next day, Penske walks, and the whole Saturn brand is left in ashes.

Some of these managers need to take off their lab coats, and take a class in Human Behavior.

I've still got my Edsel digital back, but I use it to hold down receipts on my desk, when I've got the window thrown open.

No matter how aggressively they're priced, in the end, we're still talking ten or fifteen THOUSAND dollars. Who's willing to throw that out the window? I'd advise Phase to buy a case of those James Russell stickers, and slap a PhaseOne logo on that Leaf back, or better yet, run off a bunch of Red Dots on an Epson printer, so that people can feel (mildly) confident about their purchase.

George I hope you don't mind me jumping in,

There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.

There are new products coming in the next months, with further software developments and long term plans for new solutions

Leaf Imaging US was formed 2 weeks ago so it can continue to market and support the product. Maybe I should highlight the fact that Rick Adshead is now a member of the team and anyone who has ever owned a Leaf back in the US will appreciate that very much.

In Asia Leaf also has a strong organisation, including Fai Chan who is considered amongst the top digital product specialists in the world

Europe is covered by several people who are all experienced in both selling and supporting the product.

All these people are busy flying/ driving around the world right now, seeing customers and dealers and attending events and delivering a positive "we are ON" message. I must say that the response so far has been very, very positive!

None of the above is a kept secret and there are daily/ weekly newsletters going out to customers and dealers.

So this is not Saturn, far from it...Saturn was a BAD product while Leaf is one of the BEST products in the market, with a well established presence and a large install base, which is why people (end users, dealers and employees) stand by it and are proud to do so.

Last weekend in Barcelona, the Leaf stand at Sonimagfoto was constantly busy and this weekend the Salon De La Photo in Paris is expected to bring many people as well. Next week during PhotoPlus there are two events taking place were customers can meet the Leaf team and see the products. My understanding is that both events are already fully booked and I can say the same about 2 other events that take place in Scandinavia at the same time...

Yes the world's economy is "not in a good state" and yes the photographic industry has gone through some rough times but we are already seeing signs of recovery and we will continue to push forward and expect nothing but success in the future.

Sorry for the long reply but it is important for me that people see things from both sides of the window and as it is a nice and sunny day here I should better really get back to doing something constructive now:-)

Yair

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gwhitf
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 08:11:10 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.

Yair,

I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).

I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.

Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".

The End.
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 09:04:24 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Yair,

I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).

I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.

Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".

The End.

You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.

Yair

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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 09:08:27 AM »
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You know what I'm going to ask, Yair.

If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,

then please give me 48x48 (four rows of 12x48) for $8K.

Billy

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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 09:11:09 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.

When you're trying to deal with Phase's promises and their "road maps", you've GOT to keep it humorous, or else you might be slightly disappointed.

http://www.zombieland.com/

As Woody Harrelson says, "Time to Nut up or Shut up". (Whatever that means...)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 09:11:56 AM by gwhitf » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 09:40:30 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
The spec sheet of the A54S said 0.87 s/f and the new one says 0.9 s/f.

If 0.03 is so crucial then I can guarantee that the two backs shoot at EXACTLY the same speed...the number was just rounded up to look better on paper.

The Aptus-II 5 offers the same high image quality as the A22 and A54S (some say that the FTF4052C is the best CCD ever made for stills photography) and adds a new screen with an updated interface/ firmware as well as new warranty, future support in LC and C1 and so on...worth an extra over buying used I think.

Yair

I thought the Aptus 5II was slower.  Interesting.  

If its about $6k, these will fly off the shelves.  I agree on the IQ.  With lots of light, this is a great chip.  A few questions:

Is the 5II going to be made in the same mounts as they were previously?

Is MAC still the US servicer of Leaf products?  

Thanks Yair.
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 12:08:26 PM »
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Five rows, 60x48, for 10k, for my RZ 67, please.  
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 12:55:03 PM »
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Aptus 5 sounds promising. If the price is right...
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 01:57:19 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
"Time to Nut up or Shut up".

I'll begin this with sorry for the long ramble.

Yesterday, had a semi low pressured shoot, both interior location then beach location.

For whatever reason I thought I shoot it with the Contax and Phase rather than the Canons and Nikons.

I haven't really touched the Contax in 9 months, except to shoot an image, then say to heck with it and shoot the Canons, so not to be tempted I didn't even bring the Canons as backup.

Also I wanted to shoot low horizontal so the waist level finder is much easier on me and the subject so after a day I have a few notes, let me look . . .  I wrote them somewhere on an old kodak film box . . . ok found them.

Note to Phase.
Get rid of those four "soft" buttons, either that or give us a way to lock them out.  It took me a few minutes to "remember" what they all did, but shooting low, knees in the sand on the beach and placing the camera in my lap always turned something on like the histogram or some grayed out stuff telling me about the file.  Speaking of 4 buttons, who thought up the zoom in feature to check focus.  OK I know the lcd is limited in use, I know it's small, but its like playing a pong game with a  grand theft auto controller trying to figure out how to move that little cursor around to check focus.

Somebody please loan Phase a 5d2 to see that focus check button on the back.   Two clicks, boom-boom, one move and you can see everything.  It's so easy it's crazy easy.

Note to Contax (or whoever owns Contax).
I forgot what a great camera the Contax is and the lovely noise it makes when you use the waist level finder.  It just smooth, click, smooth, click.
The lenses are super sharp without a bunch of mumbo jumbo software correction features and the camera is so rock solid is nuts.  I know somebody smart probably looked at the medium format market and thought uh-uh, we ain't going down that road anymore, but come on, if Phase can spend the money to resurrect the plastic Mamiya, if anyone could contemplate saving the half built HY6, then there had to be some market for the Contax.  Waist level finder, right angle grip, smooth as buttah shutter and mirror.  Who the hell let that camera disappear?

Note to Phase One Software guys.
An assistant did me a "favor" and tethered me to version 4.  I haven't tethered to version 4 ever except an early test when it came out and realized I wasn't going to beta test this thing until it got to version 5 point 7 something but yesterday I looked at the computer and  instead of that familiar no nonsense white screen I saw that grey thing that has 24 tabs and thought well since it's running I'd give it a try and every-time I changed lenses, it would disconnect the camera.  I bought Phase for the stability of the software and tethering and though I gotta admit I'm not a version 4 expert, just changing lenses shouldn't shut it down.

Last night when I processed the files, I thought ok I'd try version 4, but they just looked prettier, (I know that covers a lot of territory) in 3.78 so I used what I know, life was easy and I made the deadline.

Once again, somebody please loan phase a Canon with that EOS utility disk.  I know it's dumb tethering software but anyone that owns an Iphone can learn to work it in about 3 minutes.  Version 4 must take a class to really learn it . . . a very long class.

Note to anyone buying a medium format back.
Buy the p21+ and old Aptus 22, the Hasselblad p21 version (whatever that is) and some stickers that say P900, or Aptus 656 and stop worrying about spending twenty gazillion dollars.  That back shoots a beautiful file, is detailed and unless you spend years with your nose on a 30" screen it shoots really pretty, really film-like (i know that also covers a lot of territory).
In fact spend another $100 on one of those dog shock collars.  Every-time you think about "upgrading" just hit the button and knock yourself to the floor.  

Since most people reading this are photographers it will take a year or so of shock training to understand you don't really need 8 billion pixels and have to sell the car just to own a medium format back that works.   Nobody will know the difference and you'll have a lot more time to shoot rather than learn a bunch of stuff you don't need to learn anyway.

Note to self.
Shoot more with the P21+ and sell the p30+.    The difference is just night and day when shooting.  The p21+ just shoots when you press the button, the p30+ you shoot and count 1 thousand one one thou...click,
Put a spam blocker that stops all Calumet and Phase offers.  Don't temp myself to buy anything other than more batteries for the contax.

Last note to Phase.
How about a firmware upgrade to give us a black and white option on the lcd?  I know the lcd sucks, I know it's hard to tell it's color anyway, but yesterday the AD wanted to see the shot in black and white and I had to say naw there's no black and white function on here. but don't worry I'll do it when I process.  Every camera on the planet has a black and white function.

Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back.  If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused.  If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing. Come one guys, stop being cheap, at least put Bill Maxwells phone number in the Phase One box so you can get the cropping without having to jury rig black photo tape.

Now please, please don't get rid of version 3.  I know it's old, I know it's got a white background and the type design came from a ms-dos word processor, but it works and if it does crash when you shoot 500 files to a folder at least it starts back up fast and doesn't lose anything.

Version 4 is so heavy so many tabs nobody has time for it under even a light pressured project.  

Note to all camera makers.
Go to Samy's with a wobbly TV tray under your arm.  Sit it up and put every camera on the tray and shoot a frame.  Watch the TV tray jump.  Then do this with the Contax and notice how smooth it is.

Then try to change the Fstop and shutter on every camera made and realize  some knobs goes one way, another wheel the other, then try the contax.  It's got a real shutter dial  with numbers a real F stop ring on the lens (also with numbers).

That's the goal.

Second note to self.

Do not buy any more cameras.  What I own works, stop messing around.  Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.

Spend more time using what I got, what I know and less time in front of the computer learning something that doesn't really change anything.

Since medium format wants to live in the film era of cameras, then fine, I'll just treat it like a film camera.

Shoot more with the p21+.


BC
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 02:32:13 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
You know what I'm going to ask, Yair.

If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,

then please give me 48x48 (four rows of 12x48) for $8K.

Billy

I'd be interested in that - especially if it would be in a AFi, Hy6 or Rollei 6000 mount.
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 02:50:48 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
If 36x48 (three rows of 12x48) is $6K,
Are you expecting the Aptus 5 to have a 36x48mm sensor?

Or are you taking the second hand or end-of-life discount prices on backs using two-generation old 22MP 36x48mm sensors as a basis for judging a reasonable price for a new back?

I would expect the Aptus 5 to use the smallest of current sensors, 33x44mm, probably the 28MP, 7.2 micron cell size Dalsa sensor, which I expect is now being discounted as the new generation of 6 micron sensors arrive. New 40MP, 6 micron cell 33x44mm sensors are surely coming from Dalsa and/or Kodak for the less expensive DMF options.


Is Phase One going to use the brand names Leaf and Aptus a bit like it uses Mamiya for backs: for less expensive models using slightly older sensors, as part of an effort to make "Phase One" its prestige brand name for backs, bodies and lenses?


[Edit] P.S. Thanks for the spec's zteff. So I guessed wrong: the cost saving is from using two-generation old 22MP 9 micron 36x48mm sensors. Does this allow retirement of the previous Aptus 76/65/22 lines? Are these Dalsa FTF4052C sensors left over from the alleged bulk purchase by Mamiya of such sensors for its ill-fated ZD models? Kodak has long since stopped making its 22MP 36x48mm sensor, but Dalsa still offers the FTF4052C.

If the forum talk about overcoming the crop of smaller sensors being a far higher priority than resolution increases is true for a significant proportion of DMF uses, this could make good sense.
But at the cost of both worse noise and worse resolution than newer sensors! The ISO 400 limit (same as for the Aptus 22) might be an inherent disadvantage of using that older (c. 2004) sensor technology. Technological progress since then, in particular reduced amp. noise, has outstripped the effects of pixel size reduction.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 03:53:27 PM by BJL » Logged
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