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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 5 coming  (Read 40815 times)
ndevlin
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« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2009, 01:28:47 PM »
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At $3,699 it's still overpriced by almost $3,700.  The ZD was a failed experiment and is being relegated to the proverbial scrap-heap of history. The Aptus 5, on the other hand, is a proven, quality instrument at what, for MFDBs, an attractive entry level price.

One of these is a toy, the other a tool. No serious photographer with clients and accounts on the line would trust the ZD. Aptus' are rock solid by comparison.  This is appels and oranges.

- my2c.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
BJL
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« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2009, 02:16:04 PM »
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Quote from: ndevlin
The Aptus 5, on the other hand, is a proven, quality instrument ...
The Aptus backs in general are, but the Aptus-II 5 is brand new, so not quite "proven" yet.
And it uses exactly the same 2004 vintage, "ISO 400 with a tailwind" sensor as the ZD backs and bodies, for those who care about low light handling. In fact, I wonder if Mamiya has a stock or purchasing obligation left from a volume purchase agreement for sensors for the poor selling ZD models: it was widely said that the low ZD pricing was based in part on a discount for a commitment to a volume purchase of the sensors.
There is a reason why
- the Aptus-II 5 with its 2004 era 48x36mm sensor with 22 million 9 micron photosites sensor offers only ISO 25-400.
while
- the Aptus-II 7 with its 2006 era 48x36mm sensor with 33 million 7.2 micron micron photosites sensor offers ISO 50-800.
The newer, higher res. sensor has about one third the dark current, half the fixed pattern noise, and 30% less "electrons" worth of amplifier noise. (Along with twice the charge to voltage conversion factor in the amplifiers.) This seems to add up to better "image level" noise characteristics.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 03:27:08 PM by BJL » Logged
edwinb
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« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2009, 03:24:13 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
I think the AFi/Hy6 is a dead end unless a manufacturer picks it back up and continues the line.

The AFi backs were never REVOLVING just rotating, which was lame at best. Leaf never got around to having a revolving mount, Sinar did I believe.

Every time we buy anything, there is no true guarantee support or new product availability will be there in the future. Some products hit a dead end faster than others.

Sorry? I wasn't aware we had any problem with our Sinar HY6 - No I've just checked and its all ok- even more I see we are offering some support for AFi and Rollei HY6 cameras also    and there are new packages  too  

Edwin

ps. and of course Sinar have a Portrait/Landscape, click-click, rotating adaptor that is a beautiful piece of swiss precision engineering
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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TMARK
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« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2009, 07:55:22 PM »
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Quote from: edwinb
Sorry? I wasn't aware we had any problem with our Sinar HY6 - No I've just checked and its all ok- even more I see we are offering some support for AFi and Rollei HY6 cameras also   B) and there are new packages  too  

Edwin

ps. and of course Sinar have a Portrait/Landscape, click-click, rotating adaptor that is a beautiful piece of swiss precision engineering

John is in the States. Few people in the states have seen a working Hy6, so to John the Hy6 never really entered the head space. The marketing was so piss poor in the US that I never really knew if the back rotated or not.
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John Collins
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« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2009, 08:02:39 PM »
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I'm unaware of any sales or repair infrastructure for the Hy6/ AFi in the US.
Does anyone have any information on this?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 08:03:30 PM by John Collins » Logged
mattlap2
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« Reply #105 on: October 21, 2009, 11:06:38 PM »
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Quote from: John Collins
I'm unaware of any sales or repair infrastructure for the Hy6/ AFi in the US.
Does anyone have any information on this?

John,

The Hy6 would be thru Sinar, which is distributed thru Bron Imaging Group in the United States.   www.bronimaginggroup.com   Repair is shipped overseas to Sinar in Switzerland.

The AFI is not being supported by Leaf Imaging currently.   Any remaining stock would be sold thru MAC group.   www.macgroupus.com
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yaya
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« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2009, 08:24:27 AM »
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Quote from: BJL
The Aptus backs in general are, but the Aptus-II 5 is brand new, so not quite "proven" yet.
And it uses exactly the same 2004 vintage, "ISO 400 with a tailwind" sensor as the ZD backs and bodies, for those who care about low light handling. In fact, I wonder if Mamiya has a stock or purchasing obligation left from a volume purchase agreement for sensors for the poor selling ZD models: it was widely said that the low ZD pricing was based in part on a discount for a commitment to a volume purchase of the sensors.
There is a reason why
- the Aptus-II 5 with its 2004 era 48x36mm sensor with 22 million 9 micron photosites sensor offers only ISO 25-400.
while
- the Aptus-II 7 with its 2006 era 48x36mm sensor with 33 million 7.2 micron micron photosites sensor offers ISO 50-800.
The newer, higher res. sensor has about one third the dark current, half the fixed pattern noise, and 30% less "electrons" worth of amplifier noise. (Along with twice the charge to voltage conversion factor in the amplifiers.) This seems to add up to better "image level" noise characteristics.

BJL, no offence but can I ask you if you have ever handled an Aptus back and/ or taken any photographs with one?

The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.

Have a look at Peter Yang's photo which has won him the ASME's "Best Magazine Cover of The Year" and guess which back it was shot with. Peter has another, bigger back but he chose to use his Aptus 22 for this job.

The Aptus-II 5 is based on the WELL PROVEN technology from the Aptus 22 and Aptus 54S and combines it with some other improvements taken from the other mambers of the Aptus-II family.

Let me know if you would like to see some vintage file from these backs.

Yair
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edwinb
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« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2009, 08:39:30 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
BJL, no offence but can I ask you if you have ever handled an Aptus back and/ or taken any photographs with one?

The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.

Have a look at Peter Yang's photo which has won him the ASME's "Best Magazine Cover of The Year" and guess which back it was shot with. Peter has another, bigger back but he chose to use his Aptus 22 for this job.

The Aptus-II 5 is based on the WELL PROVEN technology from the Aptus 22 and Aptus 54S and combines it with some other improvements taken from the other mambers of the Aptus-II family.

Let me know if you would like to see some vintage file from these backs.

Yair
Hi Yair,
I agree with all you say about the Dalsa ccd, Sinar use the same chip for their eMotion 54 and its a very popular cameraback,- try to get a secondhand one for example, Carl Glover's HY6 example images also are witness to this which were shot with this cameraback.
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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edwinb
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« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2009, 08:42:53 AM »
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Quote from: mattlap2
John,

The Hy6 would be thru Sinar, which is distributed thru Bron Imaging Group in the United States.   www.bronimaginggroup.com   Repair is shipped overseas to Sinar in Switzerland.

The AFI is not being supported by Leaf Imaging currently.  ..........

Anyone needing support for AFi cameras could go to their respective countries Sinar Distributor for those accessories common between the Hy6 and the Afi
Edwin
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 03:25:37 AM by edwinb » Logged

Edwin Blenkinsopp
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yaya
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« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2009, 09:47:15 AM »
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Quote from: edwinb
Hi Yair,
I agree with all you say about the Dalsa ccd, Sinar use the same chip for their eMotion 54 and its a very popular cameraback,- try to get a secondhand one for example, Carl Glover's HY6 example images also are witness to this which were shot with this cameraback.


To be honest my personal choice would be an Aptus over an eMotion  
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ztefff
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« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2009, 04:44:24 PM »
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Does anyone know if there will be ANY difference regarding noise from the A22/54s to the A-II 5?

Was hoping for some improvements except speed / display from my old A22.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2009, 06:55:13 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
Within the next month or so we may be able to see what Aptus 22 files look like in Capture One. That would be the most interesting thing to see and use as a comparison for better or worse to the default Leaf files in what they show noise wise at 200 and 400. The AII5 files will most likely just be the same to the A22/A54s. The software conversion is where the improvement may lie.


And I wouldn't expect miracles. But that is a great sensor in that unit (at 25-100 ISO). It's just not designed for higher. I do have some customers who use 200 from time to time, carefully. I don't expect Capture One to make ISO 400 on the Aptus II 5 a usable ISO in typical situations, though some mild improvement is possible. I don't think it will change the intended end user target for this product. It might make those intended users just a bit happier, though.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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Easton
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« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2009, 09:47:06 AM »
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quick question

if the Aptus II 5 is based on the same rock solid foundations of the Aptus 22, does that mean that it also carries on the weakness of long exposures?

I made a thread yonks back, where the Aptus was superior in pricing but the Phase One more suited my needs doing 5 - 20 second exposures on a regular basis for car work.

I would love to grab an Aptus II 5, but again it's pointless if my bread and butter work relies solely on the back's only weakness. I was told the Phase One refurbs are "sold out" and the P30+ and P25+ prices are a substantial price jump.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2009, 10:33:55 AM »
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Quote from: Easton
quick question

if the Aptus II 5 is based on the same rock solid foundations of the Aptus 22, does that mean that it also carries on the weakness of long exposures?

I made a thread yonks back, where the Aptus was superior in pricing but the Phase One more suited my needs doing 5 - 20 second exposures on a regular basis for car work.

I would love to grab an Aptus II 5, but again it's pointless if my bread and butter work relies solely on the back's only weakness. I was told the Phase One refurbs are "sold out" and the P30+ and P25+ prices are a substantial price jump.


Easton:

I've produced clean exposures with Leaf Aptus backs up until 30 seconds with the help of the Leaf Clean Long Exposure tool to eliminate the hot pixels. I also found I could get better results if I varied my exposures. For example, sometimes when a capture called for 8 seconds, I would over expose slightly by half a stop or so, and this often produced a cleaner file after adjusting the density down in post. Without room to over expose, the longer exposures weren't quite as clean, but I believe they were still usable. FYI - I believe the Clean Long Exposure tool will be in the Capture One software for Leaf Aptus backs.

That's surprising to hear about the P25+ pricing. In the USA, after the refurbished program expired, the pricing of the P25+ brand new was reduced to $1,000 below the pricing of the P25+ refurb. The P30+ price remained the same, however.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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BJL
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« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2009, 11:11:21 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
The Dalsa 22MP (which BTW is still in production, unlike other 22MP chips) is considered, by many, to be one of the finest CCDs ever made and as one that is cable of producing, given the right conditions and mounted inside an Aptus, Aptus S or Aptus-II (or even a Valeo), the sharpest, cleanest and richest files compared to most if not all other digital capture devices.
Yair, perhaps you misunderstand me; any negatives I see with that 22MP sensor are only relative to the fact that Dalsa and Kodak have continued to make progress, and their two more recent generations of MF CCDs are even better. To say it again, the newer sensors give higher resolution with no impairment in the visible quality of shadows or dynamic range when compared fairly --- at the image level, not the pixel level. I have little time for nostalgic waffle about the superiority of lower resolution, lower sensitivity sensors from the good old days of big, slow, manly pixels. But I can see that for some photographers, an Aptus-II 5 is a better choice than anything else in its price range.
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asf
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« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »
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I use Aptus 22 and 75 and prefer the overall look of the files from the 22.

@Easton - I have no problems shooting 8 to 30 sec exposures with A22 if I process those files in LC.
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ThierryH
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« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2009, 01:51:44 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Yair, perhaps you misunderstand me; any negatives I see with that 22MP sensor are only relative to the fact that Dalsa and Kodak have continued to make progress, and their two more recent generations of MF CCDs are even better. To say it again, the newer sensors give higher resolution with no impairment in the visible quality of shadows or dynamic range when compared fairly --- at the image level, not the pixel level. I have little time for nostalgic waffle about the superiority of lower resolution, lower sensitivity sensors from the good old days of big, slow, manly pixels. But I can see that for some photographers, an Aptus-II 5 is a better choice than anything else in its price range.

BJL,

I must second what Yair is saying here, the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor is a fantastic sensor and still is. I have myself and many other customers a preference for backs with this sensor for overall image quality. I don't think it is only nostalgia or the "good old days", at least for me personally. And when you have a look at a multishot file coming from this sensor, then you won't believe your eyes. I say it here again like I said it since many years: the 16-shot from the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor (88,8 MPx file) is superior to a 8x10" transparency.

Best regards,
Thierry
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BJNY
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« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2009, 02:10:43 PM »
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Hi Thierry, hope you're well.

Off topic, would you know if sensors/bayer filter deteriorate
in any way over time?

Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2009, 02:13:12 PM »
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Double post
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 02:14:33 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
ThierryH
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« Reply #119 on: October 29, 2009, 03:19:31 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
Hi Thierry, hope you're well.

Off topic, would you know if sensors/bayer filter deteriorate
in any way over time?

Billy

Hi Billy,

am fine, thanks, and hope you too?

I have absolutely no knowledge of even one single such sensor deterioration, honestly. There are even very old 12 MPx sensor from Loral, or then the Philips 6 MPx sensor which are still used by many, without any such problem.

Best regards,
Thierry
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