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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 5 coming  (Read 40618 times)
BJL
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« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2009, 05:00:36 PM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
I must second what Yair is saying here, the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor is a fantastic sensor and still is.
And do I have to say again, I am not disputing its virtue considered in isolation, or in comparison to what someone was using previously, or in comparison to smaller format options. My comments are solely relative to newer MF CCD options. Can you point me to any evidence that the newer sensors are worse or no better, when the end products are compared fairly, like on prints of equal and sufficiently large size? If there were a consensus for the idea of the 22MP sensor being as good as or better than newer options, current MF price patterns should be turned on their head, with 22MP models commanding prices comparable to (or even higher than) back with newfangled smaller pixel sensors. The marketplace instead shows that the silent majority of DMF back buyers agree with me.

Of course, I am not the slightest bit interested in examples of people liking what they see when pixel peeping at 100% on screen, or printing at equal PPI from backs of different pixel counts, for reasons that have been discussed many times, though I suspect that some MF photographers do assess gear that way.

And of course, if 22MP at low enough ISO works fine for someone's needs, the newer sensors may offer no advantage to such a person, and the Aptus-II 5 might then be a good choice (comparisons to 35mm DSLR aside!)
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Easton
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« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2009, 07:35:05 AM »
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Thanks for answering my questions.

Is $9,200 USD a satisfactory price for the new Aptus II 5?
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bcooter
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« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2009, 05:46:48 PM »
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Quote from: Easton
Thanks for answering my questions.

Is $9,200 USD a satisfactory price for the new Aptus II 5?

Before you spend any money for any expensive camera (I now define expensive as anything past a 5d2) I suggest you ask yourself these questions.

1.   Will it change the look of your work and result in more bookings, more profit, a prettier girlfriend?

2.  Will it make your life easier, faster, do what you need . . . 100% of what you need and allow you more time to spend making images?

3.  Will the dealer and manufacturer let you try the system for a full shoot, the way you shoot, the volume you shoot, the style you shoot and if it doesn't work will they take it back no questions asked?

4.  Is the camera  stable, 100% available for rentals (backups) in every major market, are lenses on the shelf ready for sale, is every promised or announced feature both in hardware and software delivered on time?

5.  Is the software solid, fast, work with your computer system, or require new computers, new operating systems.  Digital backs are 90% software and if it's fast, intuitive and stable it makes the whole process
    100% easier, if it's still a work in progress then consider yourself an unpaid beta tester.

6.  What is the learning curve.  1 day, 1 week, 1 month?  A problematic camera can take 2 months out of your year, what is two months worth?

7.  Is tech support one phone call away, do digital techs in your market know how to work the system, can you run the system by yourself if the tech gets the flu?

8.  Have your clients asked you for a better file a better camera?  Has anyone that will possibly pay you looked at your work and asked what camera you use?

9.  Have you calculated the complete costs of camera, back, lenses, larger storage (usually double), time to make jpegs for presentation, new operating systems, probably a new computer, including backups?
     If everything but the camera fails can you still work, show an image to the AD, keep on schedule and budget?

10.  Will it make you happy, or will you pull your hair out in frustration?  Happy is important, even can be worth the time and effort, but problems can throw you and your clients for a loop, spoil a lot of
       good equity and make you think about the camera rather than the image.  It's all about the content and the image and I looked at your work it's quite nice so if you think a new camera will change
       your work, your life for the better go for it, if not, put the money and especailly the time in something that will move you forward.
      Few if any good client will hire you for your gear, it's all about the image, your talent and how you do business.

FWIW, I've drank the Kool-Aid, sometimes the results were worth it, most of the time I'm not quite sure.  I do know it takes many, many hours to learn a new system, get use to it's nuances and if that system is slow,
limiting, a work in progress, it can take what should be a good, easy, creative and profitable day and turn it into a nightmare and this isn't directed at digital backs, this is my view of the complete digital process, software to hardware,
dslr to medium format.

Also FWIW I had an Aptus 22, not heavily used that I sold after about a year and could not get more than $8,000 for it.  Now granted I'm not one to spend anytime on e-baby fighting off deals to gain an extra $500 but from over $20,000 to
$8,000 was quite a drop.  Remember all of this stuff, camera, computers drop in price about 1/2 the moment you turn the key (or push the shutter).  

FWIW 3.  Spending a lot of money on a camera made me use it, at times I probably shouldn't have but I spent the cash, talked myself into believing it was a wise investment and pixel peeped my way into be sure I did the right thing.
The old Aptus 22 file can be beautiful, can be problematic depending on subject and lighting, but only you will know if it's worth it so find a dealer that will let you test it the way you work.

11.  The final question.  Are you looking at the Aptus 5 just because of costs?  Is the price the motivator or is the quality?  If it's costs you'll probably find yourself next buying an Aptus 7 or 10 in the next few months.  If the camera is problematic (not
that I'm saying the Aptus 5 is) you will find yourself going back to a dslr and regretting the time invested.  Only you can answer this, but be sure, be clear, be careful.

IMO

BC
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Alex MacPherson
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« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2009, 07:23:19 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
1.   Will it change the look of your work and result in more bookings, more profit, a prettier girlfriend?

BC


There was so much wisdom in your post... I hated to clip it all. So true So true
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DanielStone
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« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2009, 09:10:04 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Before you spend any money for any expensive camera (I now define expensive as anything past a 5d2) I suggest you ask yourself these questions.

BC


BC,

very important points! Now, if I had the cash to invest in an Aputs II5, and I had the need for speed(pun intended   ), I'd get one in an instant. Just because of the need.

I'm getting used to the quality of 4x5 color negs right now, so my standard for quality(at least for me) is a 6x7 neg/transparency, minimum. Maybe a 6x4.5, since my H2 is such a nice camera  .


butt for right now, Portra and f/4 or 5.6 is what I'm getting used to for portraits and my personal work for people.

film gives me what I want, and I've got a good line on cheap drum scans. So I guess I'm spoiled

now, a D3x is a great camera, only held/fired one once. But the overall 'feel in the hand' was such that I was instantly lusting after one. But a need for the best 16bit file(film scan) can't be met by a d3x. regrettably.

-Dan


EDIT: oops, (but) is what I meant
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 09:10:45 PM by DanielStone » Logged
Easton
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« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2009, 01:37:57 AM »
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My workflow/style of shooting requires a lot of shadow recovery which is something digital backs always shone.

I had a ZD back before I sold it and compared with my 5D2 it was much better for my style of work. Especially as a file input for retouching.

I've been waiting for an opportunity to buy back into a digital back and the Aptus II 5 seems to be it. Should hopefully produce even better files than the ZD, and hopefully more reliable  
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2009, 01:52:18 AM »
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and what about long exposures with the Leaf Aptus-II 5  22 MP ?
25 ISO is perfect for long exposure  but how does the files look  ?

thank you
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2009, 06:29:09 AM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
and what about long exposures with the Leaf Aptus-II 5  22 MP ?
25 ISO is perfect for long exposure  but how does the files look  ?

thank you

The only backs in the world which do a good exposure in the "minutes" or "hours" range are the Phase One P45, P45+, P30+, P25+, P21+ and P20+.

So are you asking about long exposure meaning several seconds to 30 seconds or are you asking about really long exposures like 90 seconds, 10 minutes, or two hours?

Doug Peterson
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #128 on: December 03, 2009, 06:57:30 AM »
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Yair,

I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).

I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.

Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".

The End.



Quote from: yaya
You got me there...I haven't seen this movie but even though I do not agree to anything you say I prefer the film analogy to the car analogy...keeps it on a humoristic level.

Yair

 What.... ? Yair is part of the undead ? If he bites you do you "turn too", or is that vampires ? Either way it's an inteteresting business model if it rellies on bitting people to then possess them (into buying the very latest back) and create an undying army of digital back users craving the flesh of Canon 5DII users who are adamant that they never need another camera again and that as they are surrounded by Yair's minions and are finally finished off, they are still squeeling something about having "just as much of a 3D look as a MFDB from their canon". Zombies are about as real as the abillity to make a 3D image onto a 2D bit of paper - even Epson's new superdooper (2D) papers can't do that (yet)!!

So let's give Yair a break and bear in mind how good the Afi 10/AptusII 10 is "for the money". Talk about putting Phase in an awkward position.

EJ
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 06:58:26 AM by Ed Jack » Logged
aaron
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« Reply #129 on: December 03, 2009, 04:45:25 PM »
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Quote from: Ed Jack
Yair,

I saw this tender love story the other night in the movie theater. It was called "ZombieLand". Woody Harrelson and a few others kept running from these people that were half-alive and half-dead, (seemingly, sorta like Leaf). The zombies were dragging a club foot, and throwing up bile, but were still somewhat alive, but limping along, (sorta like Leaf). Woody Harrelson kept trying to kill off the Zombies, but it took not one, but two, 12-gauge blasts to the head to actually kill a Zombie, (sorta like Leaf). Just when you thought a Zombie was dead and gone, they'd rise up from the ashes, (sorta like Leaf).

I wish Phase would just take a 12-gauge and finish off Leaf, and get back to work designing a digital back with a usable LCD that didn't requires dragging around a Zombie Laptop, and they could secede from the Megapixel Arms Race. Seems like lots of activity and scurrying around at Phase One, yet, in the end, nothing satisfactory ever comes to market. But hey, it's a free capitalistic country over there, and they can write the movie script however they like.

Good luck wearing that Viking Helmet. But you're now one of "them".

The End.





 What.... ? Yair is part of the undead ? If he bites you do you "turn too", or is that vampires ? Either way it's an inteteresting business model if it rellies on bitting people to then possess them (into buying the very latest back) and create an undying army of digital back users craving the flesh of Canon 5DII users who are adamant that they never need another camera again and that as they are surrounded by Yair's minions and are finally finished off, they are still squeeling something about having "just as much of a 3D look as a MFDB from their canon". Zombies are about as real as the abillity to make a 3D image onto a 2D bit of paper - even Epson's new superdooper (2D) papers can't do that (yet)!!

So let's give Yair a break and bear in mind how good the Afi 10/AptusII 10 is "for the money". Talk about putting Phase in an awkward position.

EJ


Judging from the conflicting sentiments in the above two paragraphs I have to wonder if the movie you were watching was'nt actually 'Strange case of Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde'  
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archivue
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« Reply #130 on: December 03, 2009, 06:09:18 PM »
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till i've bought my Aptus 22, i 've didn't touch my 5DII anymore... it all depends on your shooting styles... for me it was a big step ahead !
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2009, 12:05:15 AM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
The only backs in the world which do a good exposure in the "minutes" or "hours" range are the Phase One P45, P45+, P30+, P25+, P21+ and P20+.

So are you asking about long exposure meaning several seconds to 30 seconds or are you asking about really long exposures like 90 seconds, 10 minutes, or two hours?

I think that you cannot go over 30 seconds with Leaf , then, yes,  exposure of 30 seconds ?

I have sold my P45 a few month ago and it was very good for very long exposures, I regret than now there is nothing any more in MF for night photography
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Brady
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« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2009, 12:00:50 PM »
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Anyone shooting natural light with an aptus 22 at 400iso?  I have some sample raws  i've been playing with and I know everyone is saying it's not usable at 400 but curious if anyone out there is making it work.
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bcooter
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« Reply #133 on: December 04, 2009, 02:52:10 PM »
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Quote from: Brady
Anyone shooting natural light with an aptus 22 at 400iso?  I have some sample raws  i've been playing with and I know everyone is saying it's not usable at 400 but curious if anyone out there is making it work.
This is all scene and subject dependent and it also depends on your expectations.

With film, especially neg film shooting a 400 asa film in low light produced tons of grain in shadows and clumping and nobody thought twice about it, but in the digital world, a spec of noise and everyone goes nuts, so the digital expectations seems to be so different to the film expectations.

The Aptus will go to 400 iso, but don't expect smooth as a baby's butt, Canon 400 asa, even Canon 1000 asa cause it doesn't do that, though it doesn't mean it's not pretty, it's just not something you can do if somebody says that want to see the stitching on a pair of jeans from across the street.

If your shooting non tethered, the previews are gonna scare the crap out of you, cause the preview doesn't have any noise reduction, so tether or check things on the computer, because if you show a client that 400 asa preview they gonna die.

Now if your not shooting for a client, your probably better off underexposing at 200 and working it in post.  Not much difference, but some and less loss of detail.

Someone I know well shot this with an Aptus 22 at 400 iso.
[attachment=18350:aptus400asa.jpg]


BC
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asf
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« Reply #134 on: December 04, 2009, 03:34:54 PM »
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I use 400 sometimes. Works for some things.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2009, 01:58:12 AM »
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Depending on the light ISO400 can do great things, remember that we're used to looking 1:1 on a PC screen but that's not realistic.
Try a 400ISO file and print it on A2 size and you will see that the noise is much less that you would expect.
I've A2 ISO6400 prints from the 5DMKII that needed no noise reduction, and I have 800ISO files that needed them.

It all depends on the light and the wavelengths probably.
I find the Aptus in normal sunlight to perform very well on ISO400 (read usable if necessary) however when the light is getting cooler like in the shadow it's performs much worse.
Under tungsten light I switch to the 5DMKII even on ISO200.

So there is no 100% answer for this I'm afraid.

On the other hand I shot a 800ASA roll film color a while ago and that really scared me and put the noise "issues" of digital back in line
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 01:58:58 AM by Frank Doorhof » Logged
asf
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« Reply #136 on: December 06, 2009, 09:14:48 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
On the other hand I shot a 800ASA roll film color a while ago and that really scared me and put the noise "issues" of digital back in line

Good point for people to remember. When I shot 400asa neg on 6x7 and scanned it the results on screen at 100% were frightening. In print it was fine.
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« Reply #137 on: December 06, 2009, 11:26:27 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
George I hope you don't mind me jumping in,

There is nothing "shaky and murky" about the new Leaf Imaging company...manufacturing and shipments have recommenced in August and already the numbers are looking very good. Many people were waiting for the dust to settle before placing their orders and this shows trust and belief in the company, its products and its people.

There are new products coming in the next months, with further software developments and long term plans for new solutions

Leaf Imaging US was formed 2 weeks ago so it can continue to market and support the product. Maybe I should highlight the fact that Rick Adshead is now a member of the team and anyone who has ever owned a Leaf back in the US will appreciate that very much.

In Asia Leaf also has a strong organisation, including Fai Chan who is considered amongst the top digital product specialists in the world

Europe is covered by several people who are all experienced in both selling and supporting the product.

All these people are busy flying/ driving around the world right now, seeing customers and dealers and attending events and delivering a positive "we are ON" message. I must say that the response so far has been very, very positive!

None of the above is a kept secret and there are daily/ weekly newsletters going out to customers and dealers.

So this is not Saturn, far from it...Saturn was a BAD product while Leaf is one of the BEST products in the market, with a well established presence and a large install base, which is why people (end users, dealers and employees) stand by it and are proud to do so.

Last weekend in Barcelona, the Leaf stand at Sonimagfoto was constantly busy and this weekend the Salon De La Photo in Paris is expected to bring many people as well. Next week during PhotoPlus there are two events taking place were customers can meet the Leaf team and see the products. My understanding is that both events are already fully booked and I can say the same about 2 other events that take place in Scandinavia at the same time...

Yes the world's economy is "not in a good state" and yes the photographic industry has gone through some rough times but we are already seeing signs of recovery and we will continue to push forward and expect nothing but success in the future.

Sorry for the long reply but it is important for me that people see things from both sides of the window and as it is a nice and sunny day here I should better really get back to doing something constructive now:-)

Yair

I fully agree.  I'm on my third Leaf Back and fully delighted with it. My first was before Kodak bought them and I placed my order for my Aptus 10 II despite the newly announced (at that time) change in ownership this last spring and summer.  I have a lot of confidence. The fact that Rick is there is certainly an added bonus.  He gave me a lot of help--one time in particular was with my Aptus 16 while I was giving a workshop at Glacier Point in Yosemite--he saved the day (my fault, not the back btw) and has continually come up with the right answers.  None of my backs have had to go in for servicing to fix a problem--I'm delighted with Leaf.

But if anyone is going to look for guarantees in our economic environment for the next several years, forget it--there are no guarantees with anyone, any corporation or business. Anyone of them could be out of business next month or year--not to realize that is naive. Just not the present reality folks.  They used to say as goes General Motors goes the nation.  Well guess what........

Is there a company operating today making a digital back that anyone here would bet $10,000 or $20,000 on it surviving for a year.  I wouldn't, but I would buy another Leaf in a heartbeat if the need arose. I think they are a superior product after doing a lot of shopping, testing and demos as well as seeking others use various other brands in the field--they will be around whether it's name be Leaf, PhaseOne-Leaf or WhoeverDB--in my opinion, they have a better mousetrap :-)
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2009, 11:44:01 PM »
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and nobody knows how look the file at 30 seconds ?
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