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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 5 coming  (Read 40048 times)
ztefff
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2009, 02:57:40 PM »
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Here are the specs of the aptus II 5...

Is it really true that this is the same chip as A22?  

Anyone know why it doesn´t go to 800iso?  This back has the biggest pixels of the Leaf lineup.  It should be able to do great at high ISO, right?

-S[attachment=17184:leaf_apt...atasheet.pdf]
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 03:06:18 PM by ztefff » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2009, 02:58:40 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
...
it's always a pleasure to read your contributions. So ... thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2009, 03:27:44 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Note to Phase.
Get rid of those four "soft" buttons, either that or give us a way to lock them out.  It took me a few minutes to "remember" what they all did, but shooting low, knees in the sand on the beach and placing the camera in my lap always turned something on like the histogram or some grayed out stuff telling me about the file.

You can lock the buttons under a second. Push and hold the upper left button and tap the bottom right button. Those buttons are now locked until you do the same to unlock them.


Quote from: bcooter
Note to Phase One Software guys.
An assistant did me a "favor" and tethered me to version 4.  I haven't tethered to version 4 ever except an early test when it came out and realized I wasn't going to beta test this thing until it got to version 5 point 7 something but yesterday I looked at the computer and  instead of that familiar no nonsense white screen I saw that grey thing that has 24 tabs and thought well since it's running I'd give it a try and every-time I changed lenses, it would disconnect the camera.  I bought Phase for the stability of the software and tethering and though I gotta admit I'm not a version 4 expert, just changing lenses shouldn't shut it down.

You know I have a lot of respect for you. But you used software for the first time on a job and it's Phase's fault that the user interface looked unfamiliar? Capture One 4's interface is ENORMOUSLY flexible (version 5 will be even more so) such that you can have everything on the screen at once (nice for power users with big monitors) or nothing but the image (or anything in between).

Your camera disconnecting when you change lenses is (very likely) not related to your software. If you were tethering to a more recent mac then you probably had insufficient power coming from the firewire port. Set the back to [Configuration > Power Source > Battery] and put a battery in the back and that will likely go away.

Capture One 4.8.3 is very very stable.


Quote from: bcooter
Last night when I processed the files, I thought ok I'd try version 4, but they just looked prettier, (I know that covers a lot of territory) in 3.78 so I used what I know, life was easy and I made the deadline.

This of course is purely aesthetic. Most of our user's have found the color, detail, and noise/grain structure to be better in version 4; however, anytime you change ANYTHING about the way an image is processed you'll have some who feel it was in the wrong direction, and that's fine.


Quote from: bcooter
Once again, somebody please loan phase a Canon with that EOS utility disk.  I know it's dumb tethering software but anyone that owns an Iphone can learn to work it in about 3 minutes.  Version 4 must take a class to really learn it . . . a very long class.


It's very rare to find photographers who prefer EOS utility to Capture One (assuming they have spent more than 5 minutes in each). You know this I'm sure.

We do start up training very frequently now and I can say from direct experience that every user we've trained has been up and running in under two hours. Yes, it does take 2 hours. It's a professional program with a lot of power and options; if you don't care about any advanced features I can show you everything you need to just connect and shoot in 10 minutes (just about all you can do with EOS utility).


Quote from: bcooter
Last note to Phase.
How about a firmware upgrade to give us a black and white option on the lcd?  I know the lcd sucks, I know it's hard to tell it's color anyway, but yesterday the AD wanted to see the shot in black and white and I had to say naw there's no black and white function on here. but don't worry I'll do it when I process.  Every camera on the planet has a black and white function.

Done. The P40+ and 65+ (and presumably every future back) has a black and white option on the LCD. It's possible this will be extended to previous backs in the future, but no promises.


Quote from: bcooter
Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back.  If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused.  If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing. Come one guys, stop being cheap, at least put Bill Maxwells phone number in the Phase One box so you can get the cropping without having to jury rig black photo tape.

Bill Maxwell in fact would be happy to make you such a mask and is literally a phone call away. If you don't want to deal with two vendors then when you're purchasing your back just ask your dealer to order you a focus screen with the proper markings. It's not being "cheap" to not include it as a Phase One part; business 101 tells you that doing so would only artificially increase the price of the product for those who want it and impose that cost even on those who don't.


Quote from: bcooter
Now please, please don't get rid of version 3.  I know it's old, I know it's got a white background and the type design came from a ms-dos word processor, but it works and if it does crash when you shoot 500 files to a folder at least it starts back up fast and doesn't lose anything.

Version 4 is so heavy so many tabs nobody has time for it under even a light pressured project.

I never know if you use such phrases for literary effect or whether you really believe that every other user feels the same as you, but the vast majority of our user base has not only made the change to version 4 but are very very happy with it. It's very fast, very stable, and very customizable.

It's being used by many of our customers in very high pressure projects and they report rock solid fast performance.

Version 5 will allow you to add/remove any or all of the tabs, and just like version 4 add and remove any tool from any tab. It even has a preset workspace called "simplified" that hides all the advanced tools.

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2009, 03:29:19 PM »
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---
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 04:08:42 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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tho_mas
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2009, 04:14:47 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Please throw away that paper mask that comes with the back.  If you put it where it belongs (under the ground glass) everything is back focused.  If you put it on top, it bows and of course doesn't give exact framing.
paper? it's plastic covered with paper. And indeed if you don't remove the paper the masks are too thick and lift the screen... which leads to back focus.
In addition the masks bow even under the screen (and might lift it). I cut the notches of the masks a little bit with a cutter so that they lie without strain on the two bridges. Thus the masks don't lift the screen and if the screen is adjusted right you won't have back focus.
However a much thinner mask would be better.
Then again I prefer the masks over lines on the screen as I don't want to change the screen for the different formats (crop 1.3, crop 1.1, FF). It takes some time to adjust the screen to the focus plane with shims and every screen is mounted slightly different into the screen frame (0.1mm higher/lower makes a considerable difference regarding back or front focus in the finder). Too, I like that the cropped area is grayed out.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 04:16:16 PM by tho_mas » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2009, 04:19:06 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Done. The P40+ and 65+ (and presumably every future back) has a black and white option on the LCD. It's possible this will be extended to previous backs in the future, but no promises.

I don't believe I'm literate enough to produce anything for effect, but I do write as I talk, so maybe that's the problem.

I also don't expect anyone to see anything my way, I just gave my experiences of revisiting medium format after shooting about 2 dozen campaigns with Canons and Nikons.

I can address every point you make but I would probably bore everyone to tears.   I did use it on battery power and I know my way around 4 point whatever cause I've processed twenty gazillion files in it and like the rendering for Canon and Nikon, some for Phase but when I'm really pressured I know version 3 well and I have to admit now that you mention version 5 it gives me the sweats.

I think I and a lot of others are just on overload.  Let's be realistic, I signed on to be a photographer, learned to be a business person, but never want to be a computer geek.  I appreciate the control digital can give me, but loathe the time investment.  Hell I own three cars that are 3 years old and none have more than 14,000 miles, so that tells you how much time I spend buried in front of a screen when I'm not shooting.

It's sometimes way, way too much and the fact that there will be version 5 well, I hope it's good, I'm sure you'll sell a lot of it to the Canon/Nikon guys, but I kind of wish it would hit the brakes on updates.

As far as other things like the mask, yes I can call Bill Maxwell, I can afford to send off two of my ground glasses and have then etched, but come on, nobody wants to look down at any camera and guess what the cropping is.  Even the Leaf Valeo came with a blacked out ground glass.  So maybe cheap sounds harsh, but compared to the 7 year old Valeo, that piece of paper sure looks "thrifty".

I appreciate the tip for locking off the buttons, but a black and white function should be easy and if not a real plus.  

It was cool that the AD was forward enough to see something and say "that would make a great black and white" and uncool for me to say, uh, I gotta wait until we're back at the computer station to show you that.  I wanted to kick myself for not bringing the Canons and that's not what you or anyone that sells medium format wants to hear.

I don't expect phase/leaf/mamiya, (maybe it should be one word now like Phleyia, cause that sounds exotic), or Hasselblad to compete head to head with Canon, but I would like to see some simple things that make it easier to get it approved on set and out the door.

My goal at this stage is to keep it simple, spend more time creating on set, less time with the computers and not buy a lot more stuff.  I've already got too much stuff.


BC
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yaya
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2009, 05:44:35 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Are you expecting the Aptus 5 to have a 36x48mm sensor?

Or are you taking the second hand or end-of-life discount prices on backs using two-generation old 22MP 36x48mm sensors as a basis for judging a reasonable price for a new back?

I would expect the Aptus 5 to use the smallest of current sensors, 33x44mm, probably the 28MP, 7.2 micron cell size Dalsa sensor, which I expect is now being discounted as the new generation of 6 micron sensors arrive. New 40MP, 6 micron cell 33x44mm sensors are surely coming from Dalsa and/or Kodak for the less expensive DMF options.

Is Phase One going to use the brand names Leaf and Aptus a bit like it uses Mamiya for backs: for less expensive models using slightly older sensors, as part of an effort to make "Phase One" its prestige brand name for backs, bodies and lenses?

[Edit] P.S. Thanks for the spec's zteff. So I guessed wrong: the cost saving is from using two-generation old 22MP 9 micron 36x48mm sensors. Does this allow retirement of the previous Aptus 76/65/22 lines? Are these Dalsa FTF4052C sensors left over from the alleged bulk purchase by Mamiya of such sensors for its ill-fated ZD models? Kodak has long since stopped making its 22MP 36x48mm sensor, but Dalsa still offers the FTF4052C.

If the forum talk about overcoming the crop of smaller sensors being a far higher priority than resolution increases is true for a significant proportion of DMF uses, this could make good sense.
But at the cost of both worse noise and worse resolution than newer sensors! The ISO 400 limit (same as for the Aptus 22) might be an inherent disadvantage of using that older (c. 2004) sensor technology. Technological progress since then, in particular reduced amp. noise, has outstripped the effects of pixel size reduction.

The FT4052C is still in production and as such it makes the Aptus-II 5 a solid and affordable product for those who do not need (or cannot afford) high iso or higher resolution. The competition might not have an equivalent product as the Kodak 22MP was discontinued a while ago. The Aptus 65 and 75 are still offered refurbished and their successors the Aptus-II 6 and 7 still use the same 7.2µ Dalsa sensors.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 01:23:16 AM by yaya » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2009, 06:34:49 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
The FT4052C is still in production and as such it makes the Aptus-II 5 a solid and affordable product for those who do not need (or cannot afford) high iso or higher resolution. The competition might not have an equivalent product as the Kodak 22MP was discontinued a while ago. The Aptus 65 and 75 are still offered refurbished and their successors the Aptus-II 5 and 7 still use the same 7.2µ Dalsa sensors.


Yair

Did you mean to say the Aptus 5 is a successor to Aptus 65? Wouldn't it be more a successor to Aptus 22? Aptus II 6 would be the successor to Aptus 65 if I understand your thinking...


Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
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RobertJ
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2009, 07:23:22 PM »
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Shoot, I'd buy a Leaf back in a second.  They have fantastic files.  I prefer them over Phase, but that P65 is sure something.

The price of this new Aptus-II 5 needs to be pretty damn agressive to have any advantage over a 5D2, because at ISO 50, the Canon files (or Nikon D3x files) are pure sex.  From test files I have of the Aptus 22 vs. 5D2, the 5D2 is superior... and it does a crapload of other things with video, high ISO, etc.  But I admit, my favorite files are still from the 33MP 36x48 backs from Leaf.  I hope the company stays alive and well.
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2009, 11:17:38 PM »
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Quote from: DanielStone
I'm a photo major, and personally, for my work, 15k is a huge investment. 45k for a p65+ is insane to me. but to each their own. and different tools for different jobs

15k(let alone 45K) will cover an assload of film and processing, drum scanning and a shiny new fleet of Mac Pros to edit on, and finish  it up with an Epson 11880 and a couple rolls of 60" paper to print my lovely photographs on . And I'll still have cash left over for lunch
Everyone is entitled to express their opinion, however there's a big difference between being a student and being a working photographer. $15k may seem like an unreasonable amount of money to someone on a student's budget, but that's a couple of days work for many commercial photographers. While I have nothing against film, the process you describe has almost no applicability to the real world of commercial and advertising photography.

From T1000:

Quote
From test files I have of the Aptus 22 vs. 5D2, the 5D2 is superior.
I've done test shots with my H1/Leaf combo and a 5D MII. No contest - the MF images were sharper and had better detail in the shadows. If nothing else, Canon can't compete with the MF lenses. That said, I don't know that you'd really be able to tell the difference in the final print.

I love my Leaf back. I'd definitely consider buying the Leaf 5 if the LCD was in the same league as the 5d MII or Nikon D700. This business about closing down Leaf is nonsense in my opinion.

John
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woof75
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2009, 04:05:57 AM »
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I think it's a very interesting development, fingers crossed it all pans out nicely. To me around 22mp is the sweet spot.
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2009, 05:02:41 AM »
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This sounds a bit like somebody called James ...

Quote from: bcooter
Second note to self.

Do not buy any more cameras.  What I own works, stop messing around.  Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.


BC
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2009, 07:57:37 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
I thought the Aptus 5II was slower.  Interesting.  

If its about $6k, these will fly off the shelves.  I agree on the IQ.  With lots of light, this is a great chip.  A few questions:

Is the 5II going to be made in the same mounts as they were previously?

Is MAC still the US servicer of Leaf products?  

Thanks Yair.

1. Yes the Aptus-II 5 is made in Phase One/ Mamiya AFD, Contax, V-series and H mounts

2. Regarding service in US (talking on behalf of Leaf Imaging):

* Customers who purchase a new Aptus-II (or a refurbished Aptus) from Leaf Imaging US will be serviced by Leaf Imaging US

* Leaf backs that are out-of-warranty can be serviced by Leaf Imaging US and can be upgraded to insure future software compatibility; This    includes Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II digital backs

For more details you should contact your dealer.

Yair
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« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 08:46:05 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
1. Yes the Aptus-II 5 is made in Phase One/ Mamiya AFD, Contax, V-series and H mounts
Support for the long discontinued Contax 645, and also for various discontinued Bronica and Fuji bodies according to the new Leaf Aptus-II brochure, but not for the Leaf Afi or any other flavor of the Hy6.

Not a good sign for the likelihood that Phase One will decide to revive the  Afi/Hy6.
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2009, 11:18:40 AM »
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Quote from: BJL
Support for the long discontinued Contax 645, and also for various discontinued Bronica and Fuji bodies according to the new Leaf Aptus-II brochure, but not for the Leaf Afi or any other flavor of the Hy6.

Not a good sign for the likelihood that Phase One will decide to revive the  Afi/Hy6.

The Aptus line was never marketed for the AFi. The AFi was a different line
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2009, 02:44:16 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
The Aptus line was never marketed for the AFi. The AFi was a different line
Of course it was not back where the Afi body was available, because the versions of Leaf backs for use with the AFi body were sold in bundles with the Afi body, not separately. But there was that way to get a Leaf back for an Afi body; now there is not. Adding Aptus backs in Afi mount would seem to be the only option for getting a new Leaf back for an existing Afi/Hy6 body.

Do you not find it strange that Afi/Hy6 versions of the Aptus-II backs have not been added, meaning that AFi/Hy6 owners are less well supported for new Leaf backs than owners of all those other MF systems, including even the long gone Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 02:45:36 PM by BJL » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2009, 03:29:56 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Of course it was not back where the Afi body was available, because the versions of Leaf backs for use with the AFi body were sold in bundles with the Afi body, not separately. But there was that way to get a Leaf back for an Afi body; now there is not. Adding Aptus backs in Afi mount would seem to be the only option for getting a new Leaf back for an existing Afi/Hy6 body.

Do you not find it strange that Afi/Hy6 versions of the Aptus-II backs have not been added, meaning that AFi/Hy6 owners are less well supported for new Leaf backs than owners of all those other MF systems, including even the long gone Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm?

AFi backs were sold separately, although many people chose to buy them as part of a system.
They were different to the Aptus backs. Aptus backs will not fit the AFi body and will not work on it as the internals are different.
I do not find it strange...

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« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2009, 03:32:21 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
Leaf never got around to having a revolving
Lead did "get around" to having a revolving sensor, though  
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2009, 03:49:27 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
Really, just like an RZ67 "revolving". If so, it shows how poorly it was marketed. Being a Leaf customer for a few years, I was very aware of products. So that one was slipped in without much fanfare. A big feature I would think.

You must have been on a long holiday or really busy (I hope the latter) to miss the rotating sensor in the AFi-II 7 and AFi-II 10...launched at Photokina 2008...
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2009, 03:51:38 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
AFi backs were sold separately, although many people chose to buy them as part of a system.
They were different to the Aptus backs. Aptus backs will not fit the AFi body and will not work on it as the internals are different.
I do not find it strange...
Let me try again, dropping the Afi vs Aptus model naming distinctions,, and just considering which MF bodies Leaf makes backs for.


Leaf sells backs for a variety of long discontinued MF system from Contax, Bronica and Fujifilm
but
Leaf does not currently sells any backs for the Afi/Hy6 bodies (unless I am missing something).

This contrast is what I find strange.
Is this, as someone suggests above, because the installed base of Afi/Hy6 bodies is far smaller than for systems like the Contax 645, and so is not considered worth serving?
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