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Author Topic: Printing costs for different printers?  (Read 5962 times)
Radeldudel
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« on: October 20, 2009, 07:46:37 AM »
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I'm pondering buying a printer (Epson 9900 would be nice).
But to see if this really adds up, I'd like to know how high printing costs per m (or per square foot) are for different printers.

Of course I know, these information is always highly variable, since printing a lot of dark prints is more expensive than high-key, but still I'd love to get a few pointers about costs for inks.
Paper prices I can look up, it's just the ink costs per m where I got no clue at all.

Is there somewhere a site comparing ink costs for different high-end fine-art printers?

Thanks,
Sam
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:47:26 AM by Radeldudel » Logged
Randy Carone
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2009, 08:22:37 AM »
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If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
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Randy Carone
Radeldudel
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 08:30:49 AM »
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Quote from: Randy Carone
As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.

Great, thats a good approxmiation (especially since it is easy to remember).

thanks!
Sam
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 10:12:37 AM »
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Quote from: Randy Carone
If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.


Randy,


2 to 3 ML per square foot is 22 to 33 ML per square meter.

The nice price per ML on the large cart doesn't compensate ink use like that.

That is a lot of ink, we have seen all kinds of numbers here so far but usually between 0.8 to 2 ML a square foot, where the 2 ML is already seen as a high number.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 01:18:31 PM »
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"The nice price per ML on the large cart doesn't compensate ink use like that."

Ernst, I don't quite get the message on this line. Can you rephrase it - I must be thick-headed today.
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 01:27:19 PM »
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Quote from: Randy Carone
If you buy 700ml inks for a 9900 you can be as low as .31/ml, while 220ml carts for the 9880 should fall at about .36/ml. Based on 2 to 3ml per square foot ink usage you can calculate the ink cost. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd use $1.00 per sq ft as a rough cost.
I had guessed about 1/A4, which is more than double, but on the right side, and might be accurate for dark coloured prints ( I think that the shades of grey inks are cheaper than the colours?
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howseth
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 01:28:24 PM »
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Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.

I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.

Howard
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Radeldudel
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 01:38:49 PM »
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Quote from: howseth
Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.

So good the (good) paper is more expensive than the printing? Thats good to know, too.

Quote from: howseth
I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.

I will, but I don't want to buy without this little piece of knowledge. I don't wanna end up with a printer where afterwards everyone says "how could you buy *that*, the ink is way more expensive than all competitors".

Kind regards,
Sam
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 02:42:18 PM »
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Quote from: howseth
Gee, I know this is an ink cost discussion - however, in my practical world of, wide format Z3100, fine art printing on expensive rag (Hahnemuhle) paper. The paper cost - not the ink - is the big expense - by far.

I would buy on other factors - than relative ink costs - is my point.

Howard

Howard,

With a Z3100 on Photorag and in a market that asks for Photorag it is less an issue.

As soon as you have to print on RC papers or even cheaper qualities like EEM / Litho Realistic for another market and with a printer that will lay down 25 ML on a square meter (or somewhere else) you will notice a problem in your pricing. Either you accept the smaller margin then or you are not competitive.

I don't believe that 2 to 3 ML per square foot in the first place so that is why I am asking where it comes from.

Randy,

On the nice price: 0.31 $ per ML on a 700 ML cart is a nice price.  In Europe for the same cart content 0.26 Euro per ML excl VAT is about the best you can get (buyer's perspective :-)

There is a discussion going on at the Epson Wide Format list in what way the recent Epsons count their ink use. It isn't clear at all to the memebers there.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 02:43:40 PM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 04:04:21 PM »
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I know that Red River did the some experimentation on their papers and has ink costs for some printers here.  Even if there is a 10% error based on their calculations of how much ink is left in the partially full cartridge, the costs are over one dollar per square foot.   Papers requiring photo black have a higher cost factor.  I would agree with others that the cost of the paper is more than the ink and one can get per sheet costs from a number of vendor websites that should allow one to calculate the rough cost per print.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 07:02:30 PM »
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We print and sell allmost entirely canvas produced from the Epson 7900.
I can also tell you that canvas and ink costs are a minimal cost in the big picture. If you use 2ml of ink per square foot @ .31 per ml that is .62cents per square foot and your canvas is about $1.40 a square foot ,your material cost for those 2 items is $2.00 a square foot.
Our gallery wraps go for about $50.00 a square foot. That makes ink and canvas 5% of total cost. For a 22" X 32" gallery wrap that sells for $275.00, total materials including stretcher frame are just over 10% of a total sale.
My breakdown for a $275.00 wrap is as follows.

My labor rate I strive for is $50.00 per hour. I have 2 3/4 hours in a wrap plus the image fee and materials. My costs are not $50.00 an hour ,I am charging $50.00 and hour for my time.
I hope that makes sense. Someone commented that my costs seemed quite high and I wanted to clarify.
$50.00 for my image liscense fee
$30.00 ink - canvas - stetcher bars - hanger
$50.00 post process 1 hour
$50.00 print the image and varnish with Glamor II - 1 hour
$45.00 Build the frame - 3/4 hour
$50.00 Strech and staple canvas to frame and add the hanger - 1 hour
$275.00 total
$245 labor and $30.00 materials.
Your probably asking the wrong question. Labor is everything. Yes it's good to know about the ink but if you sell large the numbers do not lie.
The bigger the better. I am looking to add the 9900 as the 7900 is just too small for my gallery wraps.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 04:53:15 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Radeldudel
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 02:27:23 AM »
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Dan, thanks a lot for your detailed breakdown, it is very helpful.

Of course, total cost is quite high, maybe I underestimate my working hours. I will see, still I appreciate pointers about the printing cost.

Thanks,
Sam
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 02:43:55 AM »
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Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
I know that Red River did the some experimentation on their papers and has ink costs for some printers here.  Even if there is a 10% error based on their calculations of how much ink is left in the partially full cartridge, the costs are over one dollar per square foot.   Papers requiring photo black have a higher cost factor.  I would agree with others that the cost of the paper is more than the ink and one can get per sheet costs from a number of vendor websites that should allow one to calculate the rough cost per print.


One dollar per square foot with A3+ desktop models is what they counted in an elaborate way. No mention of ML per cart or the price of the cart but a unit called CEU = cartridge equivalent usage. Counting per square inch which may be a nice area on a desktop model. We all know that MLs in desktop printer carts are 2x to 3x the price of wide format carts MLs so I ignore that price per print size as given in their tables.

If that CEU counting for the R2400 has been correct.
An Epson R2400 has 12 ML per cart
They quote 0.00075 CEU per square inch  so I compute 1.3 ML per square foot.
There's no reason that a wide format of the same generation should use more than that on a square foot.
With 0.30 - 0.40 $ a ML on the big carts that makes the price per square foot 39 to 52 dollarcents for a wide format.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2009, 03:29:29 AM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Your probably asking the wrong question. Labor is everything. Yes it's good to know about the ink but if you sell large the numbers do not lie.
The bigger the better. I am looking to add the 9900 as the 7900 is just too small for my gallery wraps.


I agree completely with your view on this but not on the wrong question lines.

He should have asked how he can create a market that allows margins and labor costs/times like your's above and still have plenty to do.

My pricing isn't that far off but I know that I have not the market share of the canvas competition, their pricing is half mine or even lower. For several reasons: the image quality isn't equal,  some use Eco-solvent inks with a way lower price and their prints go without the varnish as a result of that ink choice.

The cost of inks as part of a labor intensive product still counts depending on the market. In products that are not more than paper + ink it becomes way more important.

The main question of this thread is what goes through the printer and the price you pay for it. What I see so far varies wildly and some find it a non issue. That creates a nice playing field for printer manufacturers.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/





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Dan Berg
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2009, 05:03:10 AM »
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Good points Ernst,
Yes I must agree that ink and paper are still a very important part of the equation in your total sale price,especially if you are selling small. I was trying to say that taking that ink number and then comparing it to the total ink costs from printer to printer is really a non factor in the printer purchase decision. (Larger printers of equal size)  If my ink costs for my 7900 are .62 per square foot or $3.72 for a 6 square foot print and the cost for an equal size Canon printer are $4.22 for the same print that comes to .50 cents difference out of a $275.00 sale. Not a reason at all to buy one over the other.
Thats where I was going with that
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 05:06:30 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

erick.boileau
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2009, 03:12:43 PM »
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I have nearly an headache  

Ernst  what will be the price in euro and meter square ?  , I  shall get the Epson 3880 within the next 2 weeks I hope

thank you
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Brian Gilkes
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2009, 05:58:51 PM »
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Don't forget ink lost in cleans. Estimates from a number of sources (including my own ) suggest cleaning ink is about the same as printing ink. Some users are lucky and use less, but best calculate on the poorer scenario. That puts my usage at about 40ml/sqm.
I print on 9900 at 2880 ppi. This puts down more ink. I do this not just to aid smoothness , but to increase richness.  As mentioned before ink cost is a small fraction of total cost. Time is the most expensive input . Work out your time .. Then add printer, computer and software cost over 3 years, value of space (at rent value),electricity, rates, rubbish collection and beer and coffee for clients. Then calculate what a print costs. Who cares if someone points out that there are cheaper inks. Of course. Let them put kerosene in their cars. The best always costs more money.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 01:34:07 AM »
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Quote from: Brian Gilkes
Don't forget ink lost in cleans. Estimates from a number of sources (including my own ) suggest cleaning ink is about the same as printing ink. Some users are lucky and use less, but best calculate on the poorer scenario. That puts my usage at about 40ml/sqm.
I print on 9900 at 2880 ppi. This puts down more ink. I do this not just to aid smoothness , but to increase richness.  As mentioned before ink cost is a small fraction of total cost. Time is the most expensive input . Work out your time .. Then add printer, computer and software cost over 3 years, value of space (at rent value),electricity, rates, rubbish collection and beer and coffee for clients. Then calculate what a print costs. Who cares if someone points out that there are cheaper inks. Of course. Let them put kerosene in their cars. The best always costs more money.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au


Alright, yet another number:  40ML per square meter = 3.6 ML per square foot, Epson 9900.

BTW, are the profiles for the 2880 dpi settings a different set than for the lower print resolutions ?



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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stcstc31
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 04:33:30 PM »
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website


http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/


its not bad either i find its not far off the mark

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Stephen Crozier

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stcstc31
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 04:34:00 PM »
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there is a cost calculator on the epson website


http://content.epson-europe.com/uk/runningcostcalculator/


its not bad either i find its not far off the mark

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Stephen Crozier

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