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Author Topic: Leica S2 Images  (Read 32152 times)
georgl
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2009, 09:43:57 AM »
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"I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price."

I think the cropped 1dMkIV is nearly perfect as a tool for fast press-work and sports-photography, but despite all the bells and whistles the "full-frame-DSLRs" suffer some serious problems regarding IQ - even future 30+MP-DSLRs won't resolve much detail in reality beyond 15-20MP (maybe with a 2/135 stopped down in a studio), they can have as many megapixels as they want. The same with all the great zooms, f1.2-lenses, video - they're like a race-car for Le Mans with a huge trunk, satellite-radio and GPS-navigation - fun and essential for some but not for a race in Le Mans...  The S2 is not threat to all the fast press-cameras, but they're serious for those who need highest IQ and offers some fundamental advantages over current offerings.

I would be surprised if ISO1250 isn't as good as with the M9 (which is better than any 3200ASA-IQ available).


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markowich
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2009, 09:52:41 AM »
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Quote from: peterv
Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.

there is a unacceptable noise at base iso, check the darker parts of the model's hair.
peter
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TMARK
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2009, 11:03:01 AM »
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Looking at the samples at screen res, which is where most pro work ends up, these could have been shot with a D200.

I understand the "advanced amateur" market.

I could see using it for handheld fashion, with lights at 160.

I can see pro landscape guys humping one or two of these through the bush.

BUT, I don't see many commercial photogs buying this camera.  It doesn't fill a need.  Or am I wrong?  It doesn't replace two systems.  Its not like you could buy an S2 system and dump your MFDB and DSLR.  It could replace a back, but a larger sensor is the draw of the newer backs, and there is no cost savings with the S2, so why buy it over a P65?  Why replace an Aptus 75 or 54s?  The lenses?  Commercial guys don't generally make prints or large prints.  I have a friend who shoots BIG commercial jobs with a D2x.  Everything is so composited now, multiple images, multiple locations, multiple formats, mixed with CGI.  Its just overkill and unecessary for commercial work. I know I know, if you are a Leicaphile (I am) and a DSM IV retentive type, you have to have the best or you can't sleep at night knowing that those Leica lenses are out there and you can't use them.  Maybe those guys, who seem to inhabit the forums, will spring for it if they have the coin.  Most commercial guys won't because it doesn't make sense.

I know Leica brings out the beast in people, like the Shia/Sunni split.  I'm not attacking Leica, and I'm not a fan boy.  I do love my M8, M6, M4P, and eventually an M9.  I'm not trolling.  So I'll end with a question that is not meant as some sort of AgitProp:

Of the Adverstising Photographers/Fashion Photographers on this board, who plans to WRITE THE CHECK for this system, not just rent it, but WRITE THE CHECK?  And why?  I don't mean people who think its cool (I do), but I mean WRITE THE CHECK?  Assuming a system with backup is about $65k.

Thanks!
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Anthony R
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2009, 11:12:47 AM »
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2009, 11:30:04 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
It doesn't fill a need.  Or am I wrong?  It doesn't replace two systems.  Its not like you could buy an S2 system and dump your MFDB and DSLR.  It could replace a back, but a larger sensor is the draw of the newer backs, and there is no cost savings with the S2, so why buy it over a P65?

You would think, with its whole "portability" thing, they'd be aiming at the Canon/Nikon market, but as you say, with no high ASA possibilities, you've still got to keep a Canon or Nikon for low light. I ask again, "Who designs a supposedly portable camera from the ground up, and then sticks a CCD in it, when they know full well the ASA limitations?"

And who's going to buy an expensive thing like that to replace MF? What happens when it's out of date in two years? At least with my H2 and P45+ approach, i've still got my H2 bodies and lenses intact, and I just upgrade to a p65+, or competing large back, if the need occurred (which it won't). Even the Hasselblad H3 and above seems frought with take-a-bath risks, when their one-in-all goes out of date.

That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.

I just wish Phase would stick a SwissArmy into Leaf, and get back to work making a 22MP, Fullish-Frame version of the P21+, with an iPhone LCD. That P21+ is about the best back they ever made for commercial work.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 01:01:55 PM by gwhitf » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 11:37:38 AM »
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Quote from: Anthony R
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.
Few photographers buy MF for view camera compatibility, but what is MF now? żanything bigger than 24 * 36mm?

I think the S2 is destined to be a rare collector's item for Leica enthusiasts, which will appeal mainly to wealthy amateurs.

How much have Leica put into this, and can they afford a commercial failure?

I hope the M9 & Dlux4 will keep the company afloat.
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Slough
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 12:13:06 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.

You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 12:13:24 PM by Slough » Logged
ThierryH
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2009, 12:26:22 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.

Although I do agree with the rest of your post, this I absolutely disagree: You haven't probably owned an authentic one.

 

Thierry
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ThierryH
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2009, 12:28:53 PM »
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Quote from: Slough
You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.

Absolutely, Slough, and I am at the source, since Vercingetorix is located in my town.

Thierry
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gwhitf
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
Although I do agree with the rest of your post, this I absolutely disagree: You haven't probably owned an authentic one.

Lighten up, it's a joke.

Signed,

Mr. Leatherman
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ThierryH
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2009, 12:41:01 PM »
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I was not that serious either!

signed,

Mr. Vercingetorix

Quote from: gwhitf
Lighten up, it's a joke.

Signed,

Mr. Leatherman
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TMARK
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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2009, 01:38:37 PM »
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Quote from: Anthony R
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.

I think it will  be a hit with the "advanced amateur" types.  All of the drawbacks of the S2 are not that big of a deal if you don't shoot for commerce.  The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys.  Its all emotion, which is fine.  I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker.  Which is fine too. They might even stay in business that way.

I bought my neighbors Boxter S with LOW LOW miles for less than the price of an S2 body w/o the Platinum Cobra Penis case and service package.  My Dr. neigbor was selling because he always felt second rate because the 911 is a "better" ride.  It bugged him for a few years, made him feel "less", incomplete, second rate.  He bought a 911.  I wonder if he feels whole now?  Is he OK with himself now?  Sorted that car problem.  He is also a Leica afficianado.  There is a cross over between the type "A" professions and the need to have the best, be unassailable, beyond criticism.  Having the "best" supports this need, and leica makes the "best".  Thus Leica will sell LOTS of S2 cams, because, at least in the States, Type A surgeons/investment bankers/dentists/traders/lawyers are rife, and the same need that drives them to suceed in their profession and earn big bucks drives their need to have the "best".  Its a nice symbiotic relationship.

I didn't ean any of this as snark, its just how I see it.
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TMARK
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2009, 01:44:40 PM »
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Quote from: Slough
You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.

Thats cool, but a Leatherman will let you work on a set, and fix a car.  A swiss army knife lets play Darwin, or be the hero at picnic when you realize you left the cork screw at home.  There is a place for both!

And yes, there is a difference between the Real Deal Swiss version and the Hacho en Chino models!



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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2009, 01:56:05 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Thus Leica will sell LOTS of S2 cams, because, at least in the States, Type A surgeons/investment bankers/dentists/traders/lawyers are rife, and the same need that drives them to suceed in their profession and earn big bucks drives their need to have the "best".  Its a nice symbiotic relationship.
Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad?  ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.

Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?
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gwhitf
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2009, 02:05:32 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys.  Its all emotion, which is fine.  I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker.  Which is fine too.

Agreed. You can't even think of it as marketing to people who'd actually use it to take photographs. The ads for it should be in the Robb Report and Travel and Leisure, instead of PopPhoto. Guaranteed, on the used market, these cameras will set a record for having the lowest Shot Count of any camera made. They'll stay in the original box, on the bedroom shelf, until it's time for vacation.
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TMARK
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2009, 02:25:09 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad?  ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.

Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?

I know you have wood for view cameras and movements, but my cardio thorasic surgeon neighbor doesn't want to deal all that hassel.  These guys are dilitantes, to a degree.  They do have high pressure jobs, 70 hours a week.  This guy harvests lungs on Life Flight, going to auto accidents for transplant organs, then transplantin them into another living person.  So this guy doesn;t have time to learn something new, like movements, which really are only useful with static subjects, and how useful are they?  Can you drag your P3 and all the supporting gear on a plane and take a vacation with it?  Not a photo safari, but a nice vacation?  Take inspired snaps?  No, its big and bulky and requires a tripod, and tethering.  It also is futsy, clutsy, wire rigged.  I know its not, but again, we are dealing with perceptions.

Why not Blad? Why Leica?  Because Leica is the "best."  The lenses are the "best."  The Leica is designed and built like, well, a Leica, or a Panzerkampfwagen V, or a Benz.  The H is plastic and stupid looking (not that it is, but we are dealing with perceptions here).  The H has some odd non-northern European orgins, maybe.  There is the Fuji link.    Leica spells
S-E-X.  Fuji spells B-L-A-N-D.  Hasselblad spells F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L, like a Ford.  

In summery:  Blad blew its brand recognition with the H.  People see the 500 series and go "ohhhh".  They see an H and they say "thats a big camera.  Is it plastic?"  People see a Leica, even my beat to hell M6, all brass and dents, and say: "wow, that's a cool camera".

I've been working a little on the client side of advertising lately, partnering with ad agencies, well, really only one, but I am providing creative.  I've learned a lot about marketing, and I think the S2 will sell well enough.  There is a market, the psychology is right, the brand is STRONG, maybe the strongest in photography, the target market has cash on hand, for the most part.  I think Leica will do well, probably not with pros, and probably not in rental, but it will sell.
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Christopher
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2009, 02:33:40 PM »
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Quote from: ThierryH
Christopher,

With all my respect, I do not agree here: this image at ISO 640 is NOT good, if you meant to say that.
....
Best regards,
Thierry

Well the whole sense was "Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did." 640 so far is horrible and so it is GOOD that they DELAYED the camera ;-)
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2009, 02:51:48 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
I know you have wood for view cameras and movements, but my cardio thorasic surgeon neighbor doesn't want to deal all that hassel.  These guys are dilitantes, to a degree.  They do have high pressure jobs, 70 hours a week.  This guy harvests lungs on Life Flight, going to auto accidents for transplant organs, then transplantin them into another living person.  So this guy doesn;t have time to learn something new, like movements, which really are only useful with static subjects, and how useful are they?
One of the reasons I bought MF was the view camera option, (and I intend to use it with shutter-beams on moving subjects, like vaulters) but I know that most people would never want a view camera - which is why Hasselblad might make an integral camera & back sometime.
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Can you drag your P3 and all the supporting gear on a plane and take a vacation with it?  Not a photo safari, but a nice vacation?  Take inspired snaps?  No, its big and bulky and requires a tripod, and tethering.  It also is futsy, clutsy, wire rigged.  I know its not, but again, we are dealing with perceptions.
I think you can get a laptop and a Sinar f3 into a medium-sized briefcase, but that is irrelevant to this topic
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Hasselblad spells F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L, like a Ford.
I am glad you think Hasselblads are functional... not just costume jewellery.
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ThierryH
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2009, 02:53:44 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher
Well the whole sense was "Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did." 640 so far is horrible and so it is GOOD that they DELAYED the camera ;-)

My apologies, Christopher, I have misunderstand you, and we agree then.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 02:59:46 PM by ThierryH » Logged

robert zimmerman
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2009, 03:00:11 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Of the Adverstising Photographers/Fashion Photographers on this board, who plans to WRITE THE CHECK for this system, not just rent it, but WRITE THE CHECK?  And why?  I don't mean people who think its cool (I do), but I mean WRITE THE CHECK?  Assuming a system with backup is about $65k.

Thanks!

The S2 is nothing but a wet dream. it's sexy... then you wake up, change your undies, pick up a Canon and go to work.

Seriously, any ad photographer not investing every extra penny in marketing and creating new work, whether video or stills, but instead writing a check for a camera that no one has used, may not tether, isn't rentable, and can't be backed up with a second body needs to have his head examined.
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