Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: It's all moving too fast  (Read 5159 times)
Adam L
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


WWW
« on: November 02, 2009, 08:02:40 AM »
ReplyReply

I own a Canon 20D which is getting long in the tooth.  This was my first DSLR.  I've invested in several lenses and flashes so I'm a Canon guy.

I have found over time that I enjoy low light photography and dislike flash.  I'd trade noise for flat images any day.

I am in the market for a new DSLR and a new pocket camera.   My problem is that if I were to wait one more technology cycle that 'new' piece of gear would have improved ISO and image quality in low light.   I know, wait wait wait and life passes you by.

I'm hesitant in getting the 7 series camera because I know a FF camera is just around the corner with similar features but better IQ.  I have convinced myself to wait for the 5DIII.  This is just crazy thinking, I think?

I also need a pocket camera.  Michael's article today has me thinking that the S90 is just the ticket for me.  But....I have no loyalty to Canon for a pocket camera, the world is my oyster.   Reading between the lines this camera looks like it may be trumped in the near future but several competitors.  How long is 'soon'?

I need a nudge from someone to tell me that the S90 will not be yesterday's leftovers next week.
Logged

"That's a lot of money to move a few pixels around"
Jim Pascoe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 872


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 08:54:09 AM »
ReplyReply

We use a 1ds Mk3 which is essentially noiseless at iso1600, and very good at iso3200.  By noiseless I mean at normal print sizes for people photography.  The 5d we have is also very good at 1600, and I am sure the Mk2 is going to be at least as good as the 1ds.  Why wait?  There will always be something better around the corner.  Probably a second-hand 5D would be great for you now, then you can upgrade in the future.  I guess money is an issue or you would have bought each new camera as they came out anyway.

Jim
Logged
Adam L
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 09:05:43 AM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Jim.  Money is always an issue.  I've convinced myself to wait for the new 5DIII for a new DSLR and have put aside the cash to fund that sometime next year.  The problem with a high resolution sensor is that I also need to upgrade my powerPC mac.  I just checked the price for that new puppy - comes in around $6K without a monitor.  Ouch.

I'm wondering if the necessity to go with a Mac is now history.  The cost benefit analysis strongly favors a new windows machine.  For me, I don't use the iLife or professional (thinking FCP) editing software.   I am happy with Lightroom/Photoshop which is cross platform friendly.   I suspect I could get similar processing power at 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost.

It's the pocket camera that I'm currently struggling with....I know, my post rambles and the point gets lost somewhere in there.
Logged

"That's a lot of money to move a few pixels around"
Jim Pascoe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 872


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 09:40:57 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi Adam

Well I must say, and not to want to cause a big discussion on Mac v PC, I went the Mac route a few years ago and have never looked back!  Every time I use a PC I end up cursing the thing.  Anti-virus software particularly seems to irritate me.  Anyway, I am sure a PC will do the job just as well, just that I find Mac easier to live with.  My Macpro laptop cost nearly 2000, but I sometimes use a recent PC laptop that cost about 450, and which runs Lightroom ok.

Regarding compact cameras, I seem to buy a new one every year or so.  We have a Canon S70, Panasonic LX3, and now Panasonic G1 and GF1.  The last two are great, but not really pocketable.

Good Luck

Jim
Logged
asf
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 506


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 11:27:41 AM »
ReplyReply

If you think it's moving too fast then wait for the 5dIII, should be another 2 years before we see that ...
Logged
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 12:27:28 PM »
ReplyReply

If you have the cash, I'd go ahead and buy a 5D II now. It's still new enough that a notional 5D III is at least 18 months to 2 years down the road, maybe more considering the worldwide economic meltdown. The 5D II is definitely better than the 7D in low light if that's your main criterion. If you never print larger than 11x14" the extra resolution may be wasted, but it's still a great camera. The viewfinder and LCD will blow you away compared to your 20D.

For what it's worth, the Eos-1Ds III and 5D II are both excellent at ISO 400 and still nearly noiseless at 800. I'm very picky about noise, so I'd rather use a fast lens than crank them up to ISO 1600, but even there most people like the image quality just fine. Nikon's D3 is still the high ISO king of the mountain, but the 5D II is only one or two stops behind.
Logged
Adam L
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 12:41:26 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Geoff.   As much as I want a new DSLR I am sitting on my wallet until the next generation.  It's only recently that the camera makers have started to focus on low light.   I'm convinced that the biggest improvement in IQ over the next 3-5 years will be in high ISO settings.  Can you imagine the creativity that will be  released when we'll be able to shoot high shutter speeds in very low light conditions.  It will usher in a whole new era in digital cameras in a way that film could never compete.  

I did it, just pulled the trigger on the S90.  I'm already questioning my decision because I know that XYZ company is about to release the holy grail.
Logged

"That's a lot of money to move a few pixels around"
pcunite
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 205


« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 12:56:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jim Pascoe
Every time I use a PC I end up cursing the thing.  Anti-virus software particularly seems to irritate me.  Anyway, I am sure a PC will do the job just as well, just that I find Mac easier to live with.

Not to sway you back to the PC platform but just to educate others who are reading. The Microsoft Windows platform from Windows XP and newer has the ability to run in LUA + SRP mode and you don't need any anti-virus software or any security software for that matter installed. It is similar to Linux SELinux mode. Unfortunately about 90% of windows users do not know how to administrate their machines. It takes about 20 minutes the first time to setup and in the future you must log off and log in as Admin to install new software (unless using Windows 7). The end result is a machine as secure as anything possible as viruses simply will not execute, collect 'em on your desktop for fun...
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8390



WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 03:21:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
I own a Canon 20D which is getting long in the tooth.  This was my first DSLR.  I've invested in several lenses and flashes so I'm a Canon guy.

Going FF is one option, but will your lenses still make sense when used on a FF body?

What are your typical applications, how large do you intend to be printing if you do print? It could very well be that recent Canon APS offerings might serve you best.

Also remember, the images you will not be taking between now and the 5DIII might be gone forever... my personnal view is that if you think you can wait 2 years for a body, then you probably don't need it in the first place.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8390



WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
Thanks Geoff.   As much as I want a new DSLR I am sitting on my wallet until the next generation.  It's only recently that the camera makers have started to focus on low light.   I'm convinced that the biggest improvement in IQ over the next 3-5 years will be in high ISO settings.

That could or could not be. The 1dIV doesn't appear to have pushed the enveloppe much in that regard relative to the 5DII.

It appears today that Canon's marketing is not willing to release a new DSLR without increasing the pixel count, which clearly shows that best possible absolute image quality at the highest ISO is not their first priority.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Derry
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 06:54:28 PM »
ReplyReply

why buy new, there are so many low shutter count, just a few months old everything on FM (Fred Miranda) from trusted people,, spend the extra cash on more glass or a nice trip for more photography,,

Derry
Logged
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 8031


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 02:17:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

There will always be a next camera. Tomorrow's camera will not shoot today's moose. Regarding noise I don't really expect that caameras will improve that much, but software will. Shoot raw and your images will be better with improved raw-converters.

Check here: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=321975

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Adam L
I own a Canon 20D which is getting long in the tooth.  This was my first DSLR.  I've invested in several lenses and flashes so I'm a Canon guy.

I have found over time that I enjoy low light photography and dislike flash.  I'd trade noise for flat images any day.

I am in the market for a new DSLR and a new pocket camera.   My problem is that if I were to wait one more technology cycle that 'new' piece of gear would have improved ISO and image quality in low light.   I know, wait wait wait and life passes you by.

I'm hesitant in getting the 7 series camera because I know a FF camera is just around the corner with similar features but better IQ.  I have convinced myself to wait for the 5DIII.  This is just crazy thinking, I think?

I also need a pocket camera.  Michael's article today has me thinking that the S90 is just the ticket for me.  But....I have no loyalty to Canon for a pocket camera, the world is my oyster.   Reading between the lines this camera looks like it may be trumped in the near future but several competitors.  How long is 'soon'?

I need a nudge from someone to tell me that the S90 will not be yesterday's leftovers next week.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 02:18:29 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Wayne Fox
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963



WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 04:03:39 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
I'm hesitant in getting the 7 series camera because I know a FF camera is just around the corner with similar features but better IQ.  I have convinced myself to wait for the 5DIII.  This is just crazy thinking, I think?

I also need a pocket camera.  Michael's article today has me thinking that the S90 is just the ticket for me.  But....I have no loyalty to Canon for a pocket camera, the world is my oyster.   Reading between the lines this camera looks like it may be trumped in the near future but several competitors.  How long is 'soon'?

I need a nudge from someone to tell me that the S90 will not be yesterday's leftovers next week.

Well, maybe not "crazy" thinking but I believe your logic is off a little.  The 5Dmark2 is a huge step up from your 20d (as is the 7D) in High ISO noise performance as well as feature set and IQ.  Waiting for the next version isn't going to get you anywhere near the same mileage.  Maybe you're right ... maybe Canon does have a FF 7Ds in the works but even if it does or if you wait for the 5D Mark3  (which could easily be a couple of years from now), all you will have done is compromised the potential quality of all the images you take between then and now for a very small incremental upgrade.  And of course, when it does come out (if it comes out) you could easily make the same argument you are now ... such is the technology curve.  Sure you don't have to be bleeding edge like me and buy each upgrade when it comes out. But the 20d to the 7D or 5D mark 2 is about a 4 generation step in technology and those steps are probably more significant .. especially in regards to noise, than future steps will turn out to be.

As far as the s90 who knows.  If it's good enough now it'll be good enough next week.  I suppose Nikon or others may come out with something similar, but  I can't see any new camera significantly improving on the s90 for a while.

but then it is technology we're talking about.  In a few years most camera phones may outperform an s90.  (sometimes a camera phone is a better choice even now).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 04:07:14 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

Jim Pascoe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 872


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 03:43:31 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
I'm convinced that the biggest improvement in IQ over the next 3-5 years will be in high ISO settings.  Can you imagine the creativity that will be  released when we'll be able to shoot high shutter speeds in very low light conditions.  It will usher in a whole new era in digital cameras in a way that film could never compete.

Adam, If you try the the 5D mk2 (or the 1DS mk3), or of course the equivalent Nikon offerings, you might find that the IQ is where you want already.  I use my camera for available light stuff at weddings, and often the main limiting factor is being able to see if the lens is focussed or not!  The next step might be a night vision sensor.  Like some others here have said, think of all the great pictures you might be missing over the next couple of years.  And as I said earlier, the original 5D is also pretty good in low light, and quite cheap used.

The picture hopefully attached below was taken at ISO3200 with a 70-200mm IS lens at f2.8 and 1/50th on my 1DS mk3.  The 5D mk2 would be just as capable.  By the way, I do take on board the point about higher shutter speeds, but let's not forget that the attached picture would have been unobtainable in a practical sense with film.  Even if I had a second body loaded with 1600 film and pushed processed it, the results would not have been anything like the shot below.  We have come a long way in recent years, just make the most of it I say!

Jim

                  [attachment=17690:Oswald_331.jpg]
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:50:37 AM by Jim Pascoe » Logged
Adam L
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 05:39:25 AM »
ReplyReply

You guys are starting to convince me about not waiting for the next generation FF camera.  The wife is still shaking her head over the S90 purchase - got it last night - so my wallet is closed until January...but that's not to far away to start looking.

Jim, that picture is excellent!  If that's standard IQ in low light then it has improved significantly since the 20D technology.
Logged

"That's a lot of money to move a few pixels around"
sojournerphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 473


« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 11:09:22 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
You guys are starting to convince me about not waiting for the next generation FF camera.  The wife is still shaking her head over the S90 purchase - got it last night - so my wallet is closed until January...but that's not to far away to start looking.

Jim, that picture is excellent!  If that's standard IQ in low light then it has improved significantly since the 20D technology.

In the digital world the ecomomic factors at work mean that today's hot cakes are always tomorrow's stale bread. You've kept your 20D for a few years, but a 5D1 would dramatically improve on that for low light ability (possibly much more than you think!), a 1Ds3 or a 5D2 more so in real prints, not necessarily at 100% picel peeping though. I continue to be amazed at the beauty of small prints of the 1Ds3 even now and it never warants a mention any more.

The interent is full of the latest and greatest and causes much angst. Try some of the current crop and buy the one you like, then make some pictures for a few more years.

Mike
Logged
K.C.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 666


« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2009, 11:50:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
Thanks Geoff.   As much as I want a new DSLR I am sitting on my wallet until the next generation.  It's only recently that the camera makers have started to focus on low light.   I'm convinced that the biggest improvement in IQ over the next 3-5 years will be in high ISO settings.  Can you imagine the creativity that will be  released when we'll be able to shoot high shutter speeds in very low light conditions.  It will usher in a whole new era in digital cameras in a way that film could never compete.  

I did it, just pulled the trigger on the S90.  I'm already questioning my decision because I know that XYZ company is about to release the holy grail.

 You might want to try painting or drawing.

You are missing the value of every image taken with a new camera today. In fact once your start looking at the S90 raw files you'll probably not want to use your 20D.
Logged
Adam L
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 02:34:47 PM »
ReplyReply

K.C. - you are so right.  I can't pick up the 20D after seeing what this small sensor camera is capable of doing.   I also can't let my lenses sit and collect dust.  I think I have more issues than just the camera upgrade.

I have a Mac PowerPC dual core one of the first on the market.  My work laptop is now faster than this Mac.  Need to upgrade here and have been reading the thread on what is needed.  I work for a large IT company so I have plenty of resources internally to help me build the perfect machine.   On a Mac platform my preferred system would cost $6K.  I'd like to spend well below this so I'm looking at (swallow hard) a Windows machine.   I think I'll be very frustrated trying to work large files on this older computer.  Plus the new Lightroom won't work on Power PCs.

I suspect that Adobe (still trying to get a job at this company) won't allow for an upgrade of PS and Lightroom across platforms so I'll have to spend for this too.  If anyone has an inside track to Adobe and knows if they'll be hiring IT finance folks when the Waltham building is completed please please send along contact info.  I know some of you visit this site.  This will help offset these new expenses.  I took a walk past the building today.  It is about complete.  They were pouring cement to make walkways.  I don't think the bathrooms work yet as there were at least 20 porta-pottys lined up outside.

I am still printing on an Epson 2200.  Can't get a high end camera without an upgrade here too.  I'd get the new Epson 3880 as that's about the limit of my print sizes.

I think you're onto something with the painting comment.  A couple brushes and buckets of paint is all I'd need.
Logged

"That's a lot of money to move a few pixels around"
stevesanacore
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 10:17:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Adam L
K.C. - you are so right.  I can't pick up the 20D after seeing what this small sensor camera is capable of doing.   I also can't let my lenses sit and collect dust.  I think I have more issues than just the camera upgrade.

I have a Mac PowerPC dual core one of the first on the market.  My work laptop is now faster than this Mac.  Need to upgrade here and have been reading the thread on what is needed.  I work for a large IT company so I have plenty of resources internally to help me build the perfect machine.   On a Mac platform my preferred system would cost $6K.  I'd like to spend well below this so I'm looking at (swallow hard) a Windows machine.   I think I'll be very frustrated trying to work large files on this older computer.  Plus the new Lightroom won't work on Power PCs.

I suspect that Adobe (still trying to get a job at this company) won't allow for an upgrade of PS and Lightroom across platforms so I'll have to spend for this too.  If anyone has an inside track to Adobe and knows if they'll be hiring IT finance folks when the Waltham building is completed please please send along contact info.  I know some of you visit this site.  This will help offset these new expenses.  I took a walk past the building today.  It is about complete.  They were pouring cement to make walkways.  I don't think the bathrooms work yet as there were at least 20 porta-pottys lined up outside.

I am still printing on an Epson 2200.  Can't get a high end camera without an upgrade here too.  I'd get the new Epson 3880 as that's about the limit of my print sizes.

I think you're onto something with the painting comment.  A couple brushes and buckets of paint is all I'd need.

6K sounds high for a new Mac. I have many of them and never spent anywhere near that much.  I tried the PC route a few years ago when building a new editing machine for hd video, it sucked so bad to go back to Windows, that I gave the computer to my son and bought a new mac a few weeks later.  A PC will work, but just not as nicely if you're used to Macs.

As far as cameras go, I agree that waiting too long for the latest camera, will only fill your image library with more substandard images. I always upgrade to the latest bodies as soon as they are released.  Right now the best buy in all the DSLR world is probably the 5D Mk2. But you will need the best optics to go with it or be prepared to look at softness, CA and other defects from older lens designs.








Logged

We don't know what we don't know.
sojournerphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 473


« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2009, 11:15:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stevesanacore
6K sounds high for a new Mac. I have many of them and never spent anywhere near that much.  I tried the PC route a few years ago when building a new editing machine for hd video, it sucked so bad to go back to Windows, that I gave the computer to my son and bought a new mac a few weeks later.  A PC will work, but just not as nicely if you're used to Macs.

As far as cameras go, I agree that waiting too long for the latest camera, will only fill your image library with more substandard images. I always upgrade to the latest bodies as soon as they are released.  Right now the best buy in all the DSLR world is probably the 5D Mk2. But you will need the best optics to go with it or be prepared to look at softness, CA and other defects from older lens designs.


You don't really equate the quality of an image with the body used to shoot it do you? Yes, there may be technical advantages, but there werem(and are!) some very moving images shot on 35mm film or with point and shoots.

Mike
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad