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Author Topic: CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets  (Read 33219 times)
Wayne Fox
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« on: November 02, 2009, 05:01:59 PM »
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Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard.  The original post noting this problem was last January from Ryan, so it's been a long time coming.  I'm glad someone with enough knowledge and enough clout experienced the problem and  finally raised some attention at Apple and Adobe, for many of us have been fighting this for a long time.  Currently I have not profiled a few papers for my 7900 because I had no method of using an older operating system or version of Photoshop.

I also appreciate the explanation ... it provides a little more confidence in the fix.  Before it was impossible to "trust" a target ... now because of the logic of the explanation I'm feeling better about the work around.

So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.)  Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
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Schewe
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 05:21:05 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.)  Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.


The root problem has been lurking in ColorSync since, well pre-Tiger as I recall. The ColorSync pipeline just "hates" untagged data...even if it's intentionally untagged like in Photoshop. So, various workarounds have been done in previous versions of Photoshop. However, Photoshop CS4 was strictly designed to adhere to the most recent printing APIs...

Regardless of the fact that recent Epson drivers have had the issue exposed, make no mistake about it–the root cause of the problem is Apple's refusal to allow a pathway for "intentionally untagged data".

The workaround works...thank goodness, but hopefully Mark can light a fire somebody at Apple to "fix" this issue once and for finally, all!
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 06:08:58 PM »
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Yep, a big thank you indeed. My i1io will finally start to become worth its price.

It is really comforting to see that Adobe does indeed care about us the way they do!

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 06:56:43 PM »
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As a PC user, I have found some weird humor in all the travails Mac users have had to endure.  Glad you will now finally be able to profile your papers.  I can just see the new PC/Apple commercials:  "Hi, I'm a PC and I don't need a work around to work with Photoshop!"
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adiallo
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 06:58:18 PM »
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Big ups of course to Eric for getting to the root problem, on his own time, no less. But this workaround has been circulating for months. I even blogged it back in Feb. And I was pretty sure the workaround actually came from one of Eric's public posts...
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madmanchan
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 07:14:45 PM »
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Hi Amadou, yes, the two workarounds are related. There was a similar glitch back when we were trying to print Advanced B&W (ABW) photo targets and nothing came out. I see from your blog that you actually had a better workaround than the one I had originally suggested for the ABW case; I had originally proposed using Printer Manages Colors with Generic Gray / Generic RGB, with the caveat that it would break when Snow Leopard came out.

Also, as I recall, back then even though the ABW target printing wasn't working, the RGB target printing was still fine. Unfortunately now the RGB target printing is necessitating a similar workaround ...
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johncustodio
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 07:53:31 PM »
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The issue is not confined to Leopard and Epson drivers. I'm using Tiger and an HP Z3100 with CS4 and I had the same problem. The workaround solved it. I read about it in Amadou's blog a few months ago.
-John
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 07:54:38 PM »
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Hi,

Thanks a lot to all who have been involved! I have a few questions, though.

1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?
2) Is this issue specific to Photoshop or does it also apply to other profiling solution like the Color Munki?

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Wayne Fox
Thanks for the insightful article on the challenges of printing targets from CS4/Leopard and Snow Leopard.  The original post noting this problem was last January from Ryan, so it's been a long time coming.  I'm glad someone with enough knowledge and enough clout experienced the problem and  finally raised some attention at Apple and Adobe, for many of us have been fighting this for a long time.  Currently I have not profiled a few papers for my 7900 because I had no method of using an older operating system or version of Photoshop.

I also appreciate the explanation ... it provides a little more confidence in the fix.  Before it was impossible to "trust" a target ... now because of the logic of the explanation I'm feeling better about the work around.

So many thanks to Mark and Eric (and all of the others who have helped.)  Hopefully it gets fixed someday, after all turning color management off in Photoshop should do just that, but at least I can resume making profiles for my 7900.
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na goodman
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 08:31:01 PM »
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So just to be clear, could you please give the work around again for SL and CS4 or point me to the thread. Thank you.
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JBM
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 08:44:25 PM »
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Solving Recent Profiling Issues With Apple Computers Epson Printers and Photoshop

Quote
So just to be clear, could you please give the work around again for SL and CS4 or point me to the thread. Thank you.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 08:58:37 PM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Thanks a lot to all who have been involved! I have a few questions, though.

1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?
2) Is this issue specific to Photoshop or does it also apply to other profiling solution like the Color Munki?

Best regards
Erik

Erik, the problem can affect any application that goes through Apple's new print system. This is mainly on both Leopard and Snow Leopard. The issue that John reported with the Z series on Tiger may have had similar symptoms, and the workaround may have solved it, but it was likely a different root cause than the current problem. I have not tried Color Munki software recently and so I can't comment on that. It may work if it's using Apple's older print system (like Photoshop CS2 and CS3 did) but eventually it will break when the new OS versions come out without the older print system.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 09:07:08 PM »
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What's interesting is that Canon at least with the iPF drivers had fixed this issue as early as Dec 2008. And I haven't seen it crop up since except in the recent LR 3 beta, which is even stranger. Why would Adobe release LR 3 Beta with old code after the goof up in LR2.3RC, especially since LR2.5 and PSCS4 do not have this problem using the same driver.

Seems like there is still a lot of misunderstanding about this whole issue.

Doyle
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 09:14:54 PM by DYP » Logged
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 09:13:15 PM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
1) Is this issue specific to Snow Leopard only or also to Leopard?

Both exhibit the problem.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 09:32:27 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
Both exhibit the problem.

The issue even goes back to Tiger. Of course LR was the only app using the new printing path back then, but we had to use the ColorSync workaround to print from LR1.31 but somehow it was fixed with 1.4. I would think PSCS4 would have this same problem with drivers that are not written correctly for the new printing path no matter how far back in the OS's you would go? I don't know, can CS4 even run on Tiger?

Doyle
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 09:33:41 PM by DYP » Logged
na goodman
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 09:36:13 PM »
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Thank You.
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Photo Op
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 04:56:02 AM »
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Quote from: madmanchan
Erik, the problem can affect any application that goes through Apple's new print system. This is mainly on both Leopard and Snow Leopard. ....

Let me ask a few questions-

1. Does the same issue apply to Lightroom, and if so WHAT is the work around?

2. Never mind printing profiles, does the same work around need to be applied to printing any photo, on CS(X) and/or Lightroom?

And by the way, somewhat with pique, I'm really glad this happened to Marc. I also learned that Apple is NO BETTER than the evil empire.


AND LASTLY, THE ONLY ONE WHO COMES OUT OF THIS WITH ANY CREDIBILITY IS ERIC CHAN. Guess JS doesn't have the stones he thinks he has. Sorry for the rant, three years of dealing with this "non" issue has its effect.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 05:01:15 AM by Photo Op » Logged

David
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 05:50:52 AM »
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I really think the pressure needs to be put on Epson and HP if they have the same problem.

I don't see where this is a problem with Apple or Adobe. If Canon can get it right, why can't Epson and HP. What would it benefit anyone for Adobe or Apple to make changes just because Epson can't get it right.

Is this maybe why the screwup with the LR3 beta?

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francois
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 06:47:02 AM »
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Apple could at least offer a way to print without going through the ColorSync system.
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Francois
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 07:25:45 AM »
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Quote from: francois
Apple could at least offer a way to print without going through the ColorSync system.

If the drivers are written properly is it doesn't go through the ColorSync system.

Why continue pointing fingers at Apple and Adobe?
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 08:04:50 AM »
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Much thanks to Mark, Eric and Luminous Landscape for responding to this issue which I reported in January 2009:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....howtopic=31410

I am now aware of three workarounds for printing profiling test charts using the combination of MacOS X 10.5 / 10.6; Photoshop CS4 and the Epson 7900/9900. All of them have been previously reported.

1. I have just tested Eric's latest workaround on matte paper and compared the results to my January benchmarks. Both Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB gave the correct result on matte paper with this work-around.

Quote from: madmanchan
Hi Amadou, yes, the two workarounds are related. There was a similar glitch back when we were trying to print Advanced B&W (ABW) photo targets and nothing came out. I see from your blog that you actually had a better workaround than the one I had originally suggested for the ABW case; I had originally proposed using Printer Manages Colors with Generic Gray / Generic RGB, with the caveat that it would break when Snow Leopard came out.

2. Although Eric's original Generic RGB workaround broke with Snow Leopard, it will work if sRGB is used instead of Generic RGB. I tested this a couple of months ago and reported here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=37353

3. The third workaround is based upon  Jason Hicking's original LightRoom ColourSync Utility workaround from nearly two years ago.
I successfully tested this method and reported this back in January:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=253973

[Edit 1: Provided a link back to the LL article.]
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:12:02 AM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
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