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Author Topic: "CS4/SnowLeopard work-around" - application to LR?  (Read 4969 times)
Mark F
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« on: November 03, 2009, 09:40:36 PM »
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There is a long thread on the Colour Management forum with regard to a printing issue when using CS4 and Snow Leopard.  Way over my head. The question has been asked if the same issue also applies to Lightroom, but I do not understand the answer.  Paraphrased:  "LR does not have the problem because it is not able to print out targets". Hopefully someone will be able to explain this to me in more simple language.  

There is another comment that seems to say that there could be a LR problem if non-Epson paper is used on an Epson printer. Did I understand that correctly?  I have just started printing (Epson 4880) and so far have only used Epson paper. But I do intend to try non-Epson papers too.

I use LR 2.5 on an iMac but have delayed updating to Snow Leopard.

Thanks for your help.
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Mark
madmanchan
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 10:04:32 PM »
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Mark, the article and the other thread are about printing profile targets, for the purposes of having custom profiles made (either by yourself, or a service). To do this, you need to be able to turn off color management, both in the application and the printer driver.

LR is designed to print photographic images with color management enabled. It was not designed to let you print profile targets. Consequently, LR does not offer you the ability to turn off color management. Therefore it is not suited for the purposes of printing profile targets (*). For printing your normal images, once you already have profiles, no problem.

Eric

(*) It turns out that the workaround mentioned in that article also means that you can technically print profile targets successfully from LR (using the same workaround). But it is messier and I don't recommend it.
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TimG
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 07:14:46 AM »
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Eric,

Does this glitch affect just the current product combination, i.e., CS4+10.6+Epson x900 series printers, or is it affecting older products?

I'm running CS4, 10.4.11 (Tiger), and printing to Epson 7800.

Thanks!

Tim
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madmanchan
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 07:50:07 AM »
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Hi Tim, unfortunately I can't give you a straight answer. Part of the problem is that when you use CS4, whether or not you experience a problem depends on the combination of OS version, driver version, and printer model. I have not personally tested the print path from CS4, 10.4.11, and 7800, so I cannot say for certain; remember, it may also depend on which Epson driver version you have installed for your 7800.

If you wish to play it safe when printing profile targets, I suggest using the workaround for the time being. It will work under 10.4.x.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 08:46:03 AM »
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Eric, a little off subject here but I have a question about applying profiles in Lightroom when using Adv. B&W printing in the epson print driver.  Does the Advanced black and white mode indeed take advantage of the assigned profile in Lightroom (for example an Epson profile or even say a Harman profile).  I am on a Mac pro with Snow leopard printing to an epson 9880. Thanks, Eleanor

Quote from: madmanchan
Hi Tim, unfortunately I can't give you a straight answer. Part of the problem is that when you use CS4, whether or not you experience a problem depends on the combination of OS version, driver version, and printer model. I have not personally tested the print path from CS4, 10.4.11, and 7800, so I cannot say for certain; remember, it may also depend on which Epson driver version you have installed for your 7800.

If you wish to play it safe when printing profile targets, I suggest using the workaround for the time being. It will work under 10.4.x.
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Mark F
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 07:27:28 PM »
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Thanks, Eric.  So do I have it right to say that with LR & Snow Leopard I can use other manufacturer's profiles, but if I am not satisfied with them and wish to have customized profiles created,  that will not work since I cannot print out a valid profile target?  

Thanks again.



Quote from: madmanchan
Mark, the article and the other thread are about printing profile targets, for the purposes of having custom profiles made (either by yourself, or a service). To do this, you need to be able to turn off color management, both in the application and the printer driver.

LR is designed to print photographic images with color management enabled. It was not designed to let you print profile targets. Consequently, LR does not offer you the ability to turn off color management. Therefore it is not suited for the purposes of printing profile targets (*). For printing your normal images, once you already have profiles, no problem.

Eric

(*) It turns out that the workaround mentioned in that article also means that you can technically print profile targets successfully from LR (using the same workaround). But it is messier and I don't recommend it.
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Mark
digitaldog
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 07:42:13 PM »
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Quote from: Mark F
So do I have it right to say that with LR & Snow Leopard I can use other manufacturer's profiles, but if I am not satisfied with them and wish to have customized profiles created,  that will not work since I cannot print out a valid profile target?

Custom profiles will absolutely work in LR. Printing the target to build the profile can’t as there’s no “No Color Management” option as there is in Photoshop. Eric points out that, for those having issues with CS4/Snow Leopard/Epson where printing untagged targets is problematic, one can use the trick mentioned in the article here but he (and I) don’t recommend doing this in LR. So yes, get a custom profile built, you can use it in Photoshop. Printing the target should be done in Photoshop.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
madmanchan
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 11:58:22 PM »
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Quote from: eleanorbrown
Eric, a little off subject here but I have a question about applying profiles in Lightroom when using Adv. B&W printing in the epson print driver.  Does the Advanced black and white mode indeed take advantage of the assigned profile in Lightroom (for example an Epson profile or even say a Harman profile).  I am on a Mac pro with Snow leopard printing to an epson 9880. Thanks, Eleanor

Hi Eleanor,

I'm sorry; I am not following your question completely. Normally the Advanced B&W Photo mode is not color managed. That is, to be precise, one does not normally use the Epson-supplied or paper maker-supplied profiles when printing to ABW mode, because the Epson-supplied and paper maker-supplied profiles are only designed to be used with the standard RGB color driver, not the ABW driver. Trying to use them with the ABW driver will lead to poor results (generally very light and washed out prints).

The ABW driver actually expects the input image data to be sRGB gamma-encoded.

If you do not have a dedicated ABW profile for your preferred paper, then my recommended approach when printing images from LR is to set the Profile popup menu (in LR's Print Module, Print Job section) to sRGB. You can access this by choosing "Other..." from the popup, then clicking Show Display Profiles in the ensuing dialog box. This will ensure you get the appropriate tonality when printing from the ABW driver.

If you do have a dedicated ABW profile, then you would simply choose that profile from the Profile popup.

Hope this helps.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 11:59:21 PM »
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Quote from: Mark F
Thanks, Eric.  So do I have it right to say that with LR & Snow Leopard I can use other manufacturer's profiles, but if I am not satisfied with them and wish to have customized profiles created,  that will not work since I cannot print out a valid profile target?  

Thanks again.

Yes, that's right. And thanks to Andrew for clarifying, as well.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 01:40:17 PM »
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Thanks Eric for this valuable information.  Actually I may make use of your profiling services offered on your web site! Thanks again, Eleanor

Quote from: madmanchan
Hi Eleanor,

I'm sorry; I am not following your question completely. Normally the Advanced B&W Photo mode is not color managed. That is, to be precise, one does not normally use the Epson-supplied or paper maker-supplied profiles when printing to ABW mode, because the Epson-supplied and paper maker-supplied profiles are only designed to be used with the standard RGB color driver, not the ABW driver. Trying to use them with the ABW driver will lead to poor results (generally very light and washed out prints).

The ABW driver actually expects the input image data to be sRGB gamma-encoded.

If you do not have a dedicated ABW profile for your preferred paper, then my recommended approach when printing images from LR is to set the Profile popup menu (in LR's Print Module, Print Job section) to sRGB. You can access this by choosing "Other..." from the popup, then clicking Show Display Profiles in the ensuing dialog box. This will ensure you get the appropriate tonality when printing from the ABW driver.

If you do have a dedicated ABW profile, then you would simply choose that profile from the Profile popup.

Hope this helps.
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Mark F
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 01:17:45 PM »
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Thanks Eric and Andrew for your explanation.  I think I just may keep my life simple and not install Snow Leopard.  Regular Leopard seems to meet all my needs so why look for trouble?

Quote from: madmanchan
Yes, that's right. And thanks to Andrew for clarifying, as well.
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Mark
eronald
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 03:22:53 PM »
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Quote from: Mark F
Thanks Eric and Andrew for your explanation.  I think I just may keep my life simple and not install Snow Leopard.  Regular Leopard seems to meet all my needs so why look for trouble?

Very good idea.

Edmund
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 08:28:59 PM »
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Quote from: Mark F
Thanks Eric and Andrew for your explanation.  I think I just may keep my life simple and not install Snow Leopard.  Regular Leopard seems to meet all my needs so why look for trouble?


The issue of printing targets is not a snow leopard problem.  It began with leopard, and continues with snow leopard.  The issue discussed does not affect normal color managed printing from either OS.

That's not to say there aren't other issues when upgrading to snow leopard, especially if you are using an older printer.  But Snow leopard works just fine with my 7900.

I guess what I'm saying is upgrading to snow leopard may work just as well for you.  But nothing wrong with playing it safe, I personally have not upgraded my main workstation to Snow leopard yet, just my laptop.
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Mark F
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 09:02:02 PM »
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Wayne, are you saying that if I wanted to purchase customized profiles for my 4880, that I would have the same problem generating targets under Leopard?


Quote from: Wayne Fox
The issue of printing targets is not a snow leopard problem.  It began with leopard, and continues with snow leopard.  The issue discussed does not affect normal color managed printing from either OS.
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Mark
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 11:53:52 PM »
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Quote from: Mark F
Wayne, are you saying that if I wanted to purchase customized profiles for my 4880, that I would have the same problem generating targets under Leopard?


Yes.  this problem was discovered long before snow leopard was released.  However, Eric's solution works fine with either OS.
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