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Author Topic: Arca Swiss M Line Two  (Read 20832 times)
CBarrett
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« on: November 04, 2009, 12:47:49 PM »
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My .o2...
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Harold Clark
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 01:42:54 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett

Thanks for the review and photos of the setup. Have you by any chance used any of the specific wide angle cameras ( RM3, Artek, Cambo etc. ) in comparison? It would be great to have one system that can handle wide as well as longer lenses like conventional view cameras. This one appears to do the trick.
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tom_l
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 02:55:02 PM »
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Thx for the review, the new Arca is really a nice little view camera. Very interesting.

I don't think there will be 1 camera that will be great at everything.
- A MF system with or without AF for portraits, fashion, editoral.
- A fully geared + all movements view camera for studio stuff
- A pancake cam for architecture, landscape, documentary
- Something in between like this Arca, The Linhof Techno or the Flexicam that do not have all the classics movements on front and back but they are small, most versatile,, for allrounders.

The M line 2 is maybe that cam i was searching for, 3 years ago. A great tool.
(Waiting for some Linhof Techno reviews too, i think it's shipping)
I really hope there will be a market for these well engineered view cameras.


Tom
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oscar falero
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 03:01:53 PM »
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Quote from: Harold Clark
Thanks for the review and photos of the setup. Have you by any chance used any of the specific wide angle cameras ( RM3, Artek, Cambo etc. ) in comparison? It would be great to have one system that can handle wide as well as longer lenses like conventional view cameras. This one appears to do the trick.


Thanks for posting your review and pics of your system.

What is widest lens that can be used on the M line Two with a FF DSLR set up?

How can one go between horizontal to vertical orientation with the DSLR set?

In your review you mention that DSLR set up is an accessory add-on, but can this adaptation work backwards if one buys the DSLR and which to mount a MFDB in the future?

Lastly did you purchase this unit in the states? Seems like arca products are difficult to get on a timely basis in the states.

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 03:27:05 PM by oscar falero » Logged
JeffKohn
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 03:54:18 PM »
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Thanks for the review and images, very useful since there's not much info out there about this camera. I've been considering the possibility of getting the DSLR version for now, and later upgrading the rear standard for MFDB once there's a semi-affordable back with live-view at least as good as current DSLR's. So any additional thoughts about the usability with a DSLR would be welcome. For instance, given the way the DSLR appears to mount, I'm wondering if there are any issues with getting the sensor plane perfectly squared up.

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What is widest lens that can be used on the M line Two with a FF DSLR set up?
Apart from the current Schneider 28mm Digitar (which is a pretty mediocre lens, using same optical formula as their PC Super-Angulon for 35mm systems, from what I've been able to gather), the widest view camera lens that will work is the Schneider 72mm. Using medium-format lenses with an adapter is something Arca is looking into, the problem is finding lenses that are good enough and can be adapted.

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How can one go between horizontal to vertical orientation with the DSLR set?
With an L-Bracket.

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CBarrett
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 04:18:57 PM »
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I think if I really planned on using my D3 with it, I'd get something like this.  I have their L Bracket for My Phase 1 645 and it uses a couple pins that sit in recesses in the body to keep it rigidly mounted.  I expect the DSLR versions will keep the camera pretty square.

I have heard that the 28mm with focus, as for my Rodenstocks, the 70mm is the shortest I can get to focus.

Honestly, if you're looking at investing in this camera and the digital lenses, you should really be looking at a MFDB to get the most out of it.

-CB
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DanielStone
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 11:26:22 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett

one day, when I'm out of school and the tuition is finally paid off (my plan is within 3 years of graduation), I can invest in a system like this.

my first passion is portraits (think similar to Martin Schoeller's work). then architecture, and then food/lifestlye.

if I didn't love photography so much, I would study to be an architect. its in my blood (from family of engineers).

but I got the artist in me, and its stuck reaaaaal deep !


btw chris,  this kind of absolutely stunning photography is what makes me look differently at digital capture. I'm still a die-hard 4x5 and 6x7/9 guy. Can't let it go.

hybrid workflow/printing though


thanks for posting this, I read it twice, and bookmarked it for my camera 'pon' - the r in the word .

-Dan
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narikin
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 07:13:55 AM »
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I looked at this at Photo East, and thought it a great stitching option.

the wonderful thing is that you have a ton of stitch movements, way more than any of the pancake Alpa's/ Cambo's, etc,
with the P65+ you can cover virtually full 4x5" in 4 shots.
and ... you can use your own LF lenses, mounted to the cheap lens board just like we used to in film days.

no need to buy heavily marked up lenses by Alpa or Cambo, when you can get to reuse a full range of LF glass. including longer lenses - like 135's and above, with no problems, at far lower prices. no need for each to be in its own helical mount, no need to pay Alpa or Cambo a fortune for each option in your kit.

against that - it is a LOT bigger than a pancake type, more unwieldy, prone to  wind etc, and that is an issue on location.

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narikin
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 07:20:01 AM »
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Alpa + co would argue that the tolerances just aren't fine enough for digital MF - that you need to be within 1/1000ths  to be accurate. any truth to this from using this - there is absolutely no play on that front standard when locked at zeros?

and just out of interest - which tripod head are you using it on?
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CBarrett
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 09:02:39 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
Alpa + co would argue that the tolerances just aren't fine enough for digital MF - that you need to be within 1/1000ths  to be accurate. any truth to this from using this - there is absolutely no play on that front standard when locked at zeros?

and just out of interest - which tripod head are you using it on?


Yes they could argue that IF they weren't all jumping on the tilt / swing bandwagon which honestly throws those tolerances out the window.  Those cameras wanna grow up to be view cameras...LoL.

If there is any slop in the M Line 2, its within the depth of focus of the back.  No problems getting sharp edge to edge.

I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.

Most of the plates are beautifully designed, especially the Alpa's, and as a fan of good design I find them soooo seductive.

Oh, and as for heads, I've used Bogen 410's for years now.   I'm going to have a real close look at the Arca Cube soon, but the lack of geared pan might be a dealbreaker.

-CB
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narikin
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 09:17:30 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.
-CB
good to know. so is there a problem with using say a 120mm or 135mm LF lens on this?
that way a simple 4 way stitch imitating 4x5" would be easily possible.

I'm not a superwide user, so that end of things is of less interest.
though of course what 'wide' is depends on whether you're doing single shot or stitching formats, duh.




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Harold Clark
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 09:20:12 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Yes they could argue that IF they weren't all jumping on the tilt / swing bandwagon which honestly throws those tolerances out the window.  Those cameras wanna grow up to be view cameras...LoL.

If there is any slop in the M Line 2, its within the depth of focus of the back.  No problems getting sharp edge to edge.

I do love the compactness of the plate cameras... I think if you only shoot wide and don't use more than three lenses, they're a pretty good solution.

Most of the plates are beautifully designed, especially the Alpa's, and as a fan of good design I find them soooo seductive.

Oh, and as for heads, I've used Bogen 410's for years now.   I'm going to have a real close look at the Arca Cube soon, but the lack of geared pan might be a dealbreaker.

-CB

Have you had any experience of misalignment or focus errors with the 35mm lens, or have you ever used anything wider than 35mm on the camera?
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CBarrett
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 09:22:00 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
good to know. so is there a problem with using say a 120mm or 135mm LF lens on this?
that way a simple 4 way stitch imitating 4x5" would be easily possible.

I'm not a superwide user, so that end of things is of less interest.
though of course what 'wide' is depends on whether you're doing single shot or stitching formats, duh.

I carry a 135mm and you can focus that even when using the bag bellows.  You could also move to a longer rail and bellows to shoot about any lens made.  I do have a 50cm rail and bellows and it's a hoot shooting a 305mm on the P65+.... "You want detail?  I got your detail!"
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John Collins
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 10:13:26 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
I carry a 135mm and you can focus that even when using the bag bellows.  You could also move to a longer rail and bellows to shoot about any lens made.  I do have a 50cm rail and bellows and it's a hoot shooting a 305mm on the P65+.... "You want detail?  I got your detail!"


I was under the impression (quite possibly mistaken) that the likes of a P65+ needed lenses designed for digital to take advantage of their resolution. Is the 305 a digital lens design?
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CBarrett
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 10:39:15 AM »
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Quote from: John Collins
I was under the impression (quite possibly mistaken) that the likes of a P65+ needed lenses designed for digital to take advantage of their resolution. Is the 305 a digital lens design?


The new lenses ARE remarkably better, but the old film lenses are still quite usable, and if you need really really long...it's all you've got.

When I get a chance I'll put up a comparison between my old 135mm and the Digi 135mm.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 11:47:50 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
I have heard that the 28mm with focus, as for my Rodenstocks, the 70mm is the shortest I can get to focus.
Good to hear that the Rodenstock 70mm will work, are there any limitations using movement with that lens and your D3?

I'm also curious how much shift is possible with the DSLR? I know there's +/- 30mm on the rear standard, but can you actually use that much with a DSLR, or do you get a shadow from the lens mount after 12mm or so like you do with a a regular T/S lens on a DSLR?

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Honestly, if you're looking at investing in this camera and the digital lenses, you should really be looking at a MFDB to get the most out of it.
I just don't see the value proposition in the sub-10K backs right now, especially since they could not completely replace my D3x for everything I use it for, and would have to be an additional purchase. The higher-end backs are just way too expensive for me, especially without live-view; trying to get critical focus with sliding backs or range-finders is not my idea of fun. Whene there are some more affordable backs with working live-view (on the LCD, not tethered) that would also be a compelling upgrade in image quality from my D3x I'll consider a back, which is why the M-Line 2's ability to work with both makes it appealing as a long-term investment.
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JdeV
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 11:49:39 AM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
Good to hear that the Rodenstock 70mm will work, are there any limitations using movement with that lens and your D3?

I'm also curious how much shift is possible with the DSLR? I know there's +/- 30mm on the rear standard, but can you actually use that much with a DSLR, or do you get a shadow from the lens mount after 12mm or so like you do with a a regular T/S lens on a DSLR?

I just don't see the value proposition in the sub-10K backs right now, especially since they could not completely replace my D3x for everything I use it for, and would have to be an additional purchase. The higher-end backs are just way too expensive for me, especially without live-view; trying to get critical focus with sliding backs or range-finders is not my idea of fun. Whene there are some more affordable backs with working live-view (on the LCD, not tethered) that would also be a compelling upgrade in image quality from my D3x I'll consider a back, which is why the M-Line 2's ability to work with both makes it appealing as a long-term investment.

Maybe the CFV 39 Hasselblad might be worth considering for a view camera if Phocus manages decent live-view, (the UK Hasselblad rep. says it's imminent). Not sub-10K but not far off.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 01:44:25 PM by JdeV » Logged
JeffKohn
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2009, 12:47:33 PM »
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Quote from: JdeV
Maybe the CFV 39 Hasselblad might be worth considering for a view camera if Phocus manages decent live-view, (the UK Hasselblad rep. says it's imminent). Not sub-10K but not far off.
Is that tethered or on the back LCD? I shoot landscapes, so tethering to a laptop is not an option. I imagine they'll get there eventually, but I'd like to start using a view camera before then.
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chrisg77
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 08:12:43 AM »
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Chris,

Thanks for the review. I had the chance to handle this body and the Rm3d at the NY Photo expo. Both very nice.
The Arca family had one binder with prices on hand and nothing to give out.

Can you share your purchasing experience - the where, who, and any wait of it?

Most appreciated.


Chris G.
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fmo
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 09:02:33 AM »
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Quote from: Chris Gardner
Chris,

Thanks for the review. I had the chance to handle this body and the Rm3d at the NY Photo expo. Both very nice.
The Arca family had one binder with prices on hand and nothing to give out.

Can you share your purchasing experience - the where, who, and any wait of it?

Most appreciated.


Chris G.



From my experience it is always a good idea to give Martin Vogt at Arca Swiss a call, he is extremely helpful and much more into detail than any website could ever be. If you have got any questions regarding Arca Swiss cameras, lens compatibility, dimensions of bellows, rails, movements, he would be the man who knows it all.

Frank
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 09:03:04 AM by fmo » Logged
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