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Author Topic: Capture One 5 - A serious warning regarding your metadata  (Read 18395 times)
Adrian Lambert
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« on: November 05, 2009, 08:12:25 PM »
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Hi there,

Just to make this clear. CAPTURE ONE 5 STRIPS OUT EXISTING METADATA WHEN IT LOADS THE IMAGES IN THE CURRENT SESSION. THERE IS NO GETTING THIS INFORMATION BACK. This isn't limited to C1 5, it also was the case in C1 4.x but in that case only the post IPTC4 info, the headline and the copyright owner were stripped out. (We had a few templates in Adobe Bridge and PhotoMechanic to resolve this stuff.)

I've been hammering on in the forums at phase one for years now about the poor support for metadata in Capture One. It seems now, as Capture One are piping on about how the new software supports extended metadata, it still only supports the pre 2004 implementation. The reality is that it has become worse, much much worse. In our case (Studio with capture one running on 5 machines - since 3.x.x) I have found that if you embed metadata in another application such as PhotoMechanic so as to make full use of the currrent iptc standards, Capture One strips almost all the metadata out of the RAW files. We find only our keywords left. I think this is a very serious issue, so wanted to take it beyond the companies discussion forums and support ticket systems where nothing seemingly gets done.

To head of a few comments. We don't use the metadata implementation in capture one because as i mentioned it is outdated. It also needs to be entered manually where many image handling software allows automation. PhotoMechanic is our product of choice, we know it now and we'd rather not change it unless something did the same job with less effort and time on our part.

Why is all this important? As our library grows (and yours) metadata is fast becoming the only way to locate images easily. It also contains info about what usage rights our clients have for the image, who the licenced user is, who is the owner or copyright holder, how to find the owner. who shot it, where it was shot, when it was shot.... you know, the Fundamental things!


I would love to hear from other users on their experiences on this. I'd love to find out that we are doing something wrong, or that a reinstall would fix this issue...
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 11:58:49 PM »
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I was not aware of this, but I am currently looking at enhancing my data mgt and this will for sure impact me big time...

Cheers,
Bernard
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 05:41:59 PM »
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To me it seems to more a case of metadata communication between programs.  Somethings seem to work fine (such as keywords) other things either don't work at all or work strangely (such as ratings).

It appears as long as I don't make any changes to IPTC data while in C1, then LR has no problem at all - everything is still there.  However, C1 doesn't see many of the LR adds (such as ratings).  Others such as keywords seem to work fine.

I don't know if this an issue with one of the programs, or a limitation one metadata edits and what can and can't be changed in the actual file, or just me not understanding a good workflow to use C1 with LR.  It could be many of the changes can only be stored by the program in some other manner (such as a database or sidecar file), so there may not be an effective way to communicate the changes to other programs.
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Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 07:29:38 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
To me it seems to more a case of metadata communication between programs.  Somethings seem to work fine (such as keywords) other things either don't work at all or work strangely (such as ratings).
If by communicating you mean ripping the guts out of a RAW file then yes! Sorry couldn't resist that! When you say some things work fine can you elaborate, what version of C1 are you using and is the metadata embedded or in sidecars? You are right though there is also a breakdown in communications.


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It appears as long as I don't make any changes to IPTC data while in C1, then LR has no problem at all - everything is still there.  However, C1 doesn't see many of the LR adds (such as ratings).  Others such as keywords seem to work fine.

I don't know if this an issue with one of the programs, or a limitation one metadata edits and what can and can't be changed in the actual file, or just me not understanding a good workflow to use C1 with LR.  It could be many of the changes can only be stored by the program in some other manner (such as a database or sidecar file), so there may not be an effective way to communicate the changes to other programs.

This is like when C1 staff stated in their forums that they don't support panasonic cameras while the identical Leica cameras are supported and that that is a perk of owning a more expensive camera!!! (Dickheads). P1 seem to have a few issues with some companies in spite of what would benefit their paying customers. Adobe came up with XMP metadata in around 2001. the IPTC Photo Metadata Standards integrated XMP in 2005, I can only assume this was to a, improve the quality of information that could be added to the image and b, to improve the exchange between software as xmp is similar to xml which is widely used these days. The XMP implementations are still the intellectual property of Adobe which may be why C1 doesn't like them. Maybe P1 are avoiding getting too entangled in Adobe's intellectual property. They are certainly avoiding the industry standard for exchanging information about the image in the process. The implementation of the standards is open for anyone to read and use (AFAICT). So the end user suffers.

I'm not pushing this but we use PhotoMechanic to embed metadata. There are others that are great but we want to embed metadata into the RAW file which PM does. It's a dedicated image management system with no allegiances that i can see to anyone except it's customers. The fact that P1 seem to be OK with stripping information directly from RAW files with no user interaction is nothing short of clumsy, rude and stupid, and not at all in the best interests of photographers. I would strongly encourage people stay away from upgrading Capture One for the time being, assuming a corporate attitude like that. And software like this!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:38:55 PM by Adrian Lambert » Logged
AnthonyAdachi
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 07:54:28 PM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
I have found that if you embed metadata in another application such as PhotoMechanic so as to make full use of the currrent iptc standards,

PhotoMechanic seems to be more on top of such things than some others.

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Capture One strips almost all the metadata out of the RAW files.

Do you mean to say you're embedding the IPTC metadata in the RAW file as opposed to using XMP side cars?

Personally, I stopped embedding metadata in RAW's quite some time ago when I discovered CaptueOne 3.7.x could no longer read NEF files to which I had added IPTC metadata.

Also, by using XMP side car files the RAW image doesn't get touched when changes are made to the metadata. This has at least two benefits:

1. It reduces the chance that the RAW image data will get accidently corrupted by simply not writing to that file. Stuff happens and software bugs happen. It's best to reduce the chance of that happening by not writing unnecessarily to same container where the RAW image data resides, at least in my humble opinion.

2. When doing backups just the text based XMP side car files get backed up upon changes rather than the entire RAW files again. This makes incremental automated backups much faster and saves clutter one may have to sift through later on the backup drive in event of the need to do a restore.

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PhotoMechanic is our product of choice, we know it now and we'd rather not change it unless something did the same job with less effort and time on our part.

Perhaps, sticking with PhotoMechanic for metadata entry is the best idea?

Quote
Why is all this important? As our library grows (and yours) metadata is fast becoming the only way to locate images easily. It also contains info about what usage rights our clients have for the image, who the licenced user is, who is the owner or copyright holder, how to find the owner. who shot it, where it was shot, when it was shot.... you know, the Fundamental things!

Points well worth emphasizing, especially in light of Orphan Works legislation.

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I would love to hear from other users on their experiences on this. I'd love to find out that we are doing something wrong, or that a reinstall would fix this issue...

Somehow I suspect the real root of the problem isn't your approach but a lack of programs playing well enough with each other with regards to metadata handling. Or at least making life easier for photographers or others working with their images in the production chain, keeping metadata intact.

The best would likely be if CaptureOne supported standard XMP sidecar files for IPTC rather than using their proprietary side car directory structure for metadata.

There's also an excellent discussion group (Controlled Vocabulary "list") for these kinds of issues such as keeping metadata intact, the link to which is near the bottom of this page.

http://www.controlledvocabulary.com/

By the way, David Riecks' Controlled Vocabulary site has good info on subjects surrounding metadata.

-Anthony
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Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 10:33:42 PM »
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Quote from: AnthonyAdachi
PhotoMechanic seems to be more on top of such things than some others.
Do you mean to say you're embedding the IPTC metadata in the RAW file as opposed to using XMP side cars?

Personally, I stopped embedding metadata in RAW's quite some time ago when I discovered CaptueOne 3.7.x could no longer read NEF files to which I had added IPTC metadata.

Also, by using XMP side car files the RAW image doesn't get touched when changes are made to the metadata. This has at least two benefits:

1. It reduces the chance that the RAW image data will get accidently corrupted by simply not writing to that file. Stuff happens and software bugs happen. It's best to reduce the chance of that happening by not writing unnecessarily to same container where the RAW image data resides, at least in my humble opinion.

2. When doing backups just the text based XMP side car files get backed up upon changes rather than the entire RAW files again. This makes incremental automated backups much faster and saves clutter one may have to sift through later on the backup drive in event of the need to do a restore.

Perhaps, sticking with PhotoMechanic for metadata entry is the best idea?

Points well worth emphasizing, especially in light of Orphan Works legislation.

Somehow I suspect the real root of the problem isn't your approach but a lack of programs playing well enough with each other with regards to metadata handling. Or at least making life easier for photographers or others working with their images in the production chain, keeping metadata intact.

The best would likely be if CaptureOne supported standard XMP sidecar files for IPTC rather than using their proprietary side car directory structure for metadata.

There's also an excellent discussion group (Controlled Vocabulary "list") for these kinds of issues such as keeping metadata intact, the link to which is near the bottom of this page.

http://www.controlledvocabulary.com/

By the way, David Riecks' Controlled Vocabulary site has good info on subjects surrounding metadata.

-Anthony

Thanks for the input Anthony, I'm getting familiar with Controlled Vocabulary in fact we went with their database just the other week.
As I was saying which I think hasn't come across. We do stick with PhotoMechanic but C1-5 is stripping this embeded info from the RAW files, so your idea of sidecars might make some sense.

2 reasons that we have stuck with embedding is that we feared the sidecars and RAWs had the potential to be separated. Earlier on in our workflow we used to move RAW files into a selects folder then use that as the capture folder within C1. This isn't something that we do these days, but the potential for separation still concerns us. The second is that we haven't experienced in all the years of shooting digital any corruption that we could blame on metadata embedding. Occasionally from the camera/card or ingest processes. If a RAW file was corrupted it was from the start prior to embedding metadata, never after. [touching wood] Our experience is pretty lengthy so we are quite confident in this approach although I do agree that bad things can happen.

I agree with you that P1 should support XMP but both sidecars and embedded metadat would allow all approaches to work.

I also agree that the softwares aren't playing well together but moreso it's not a game at all when C1 strips your embedded metadata from your RAWs! This is so disappointing when it's 4.5 years since the IPTC Photo Metadata Standards was updated to include XMP, and it's only been updated once. Hardly difficult for software publishers to keep up with.

(Thanks for the link to the CV list too, I'll get over there when I have some time later in the weekend.)

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selsoe
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2009, 05:41:11 AM »
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You mean that Capture One is actually physically changing your RAW file and stripping your metadata? I find this hard to believe. When does this happen? Just when viewing the RAW file in Capture One or after processing it? Can you see from the modified date of the file in Finder that it has been changed?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 06:07:10 AM »
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I've just tried it with a copy of a RAW file.
I added IPTC data in Photomechanics, opened the file in C1 V5 and processed it.
- in C1 the IPTC data added in Photomechanis show up (ecxept of "copyright URL" which is marked with a * in Photomechanics).
- after processing all the IPTC data showed up in the processed JPG in Photomechanics as well as in Adobe Bridge ans "xnView" (again ecxept of "copyright URL")

So... I can't reproduce the problem here with a quick test.

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alain
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 08:40:19 AM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
...
The XMP implementations are still the intellectual property of Adobe which may be why C1 doesn't like them. Maybe P1 are avoiding getting too entangled in Adobe's intellectual property.
...

I wouldn't use them either in this case.  Practicaly that means that it's a closed system.  It's a shame that some people regard those as "standard", very bad practice.
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Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2009, 09:42:50 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
I've just tried it with a copy of a RAW file.
I added IPTC data in Photomechanics, opened the file in C1 V5 and processed it.
- in C1 the IPTC data added in Photomechanis show up (ecxept of "copyright URL" which is marked with a * in Photomechanics).
- after processing all the IPTC data showed up in the processed JPG in Photomechanics as well as in Adobe Bridge ans "xnView" (again ecxept of "copyright URL")

So... I can't reproduce the problem here with a quick test.
thatís incredibly encouraging. Hopefully our experience is an isolated one. Are you on mac or pc?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 09:47:17 AM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
thatís incredibly encouraging. Hopefully our experience is an isolated one. Are you on mac or pc?
Mac Pro 4.1; OSX 10.6.1

edit: my IPTC tags also included a new "keyword". Even this one showed up in C1 as well as in the other softwares after processing.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 09:55:42 AM by tho_mas » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 10:10:37 AM »
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this is how it looks like

Photomechanic
[attachment=17740:pm_iptc.jpg]

C1 V5.0
[attachment=17741:c1_iptc.jpg]


the * fields are not displayed / passed through. According to Photomechanic they are XMP only.
Too, category and sub-category are not displayed.

Looks like an incompatibility of the different IPTC formats.
But also shows that C1 reads and writes those tags that are compatible with the IPTC format that is im implemented in C1.


« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:16:32 AM by tho_mas » Logged
AnthonyAdachi
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 10:12:02 AM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
...
The XMP implementations are still the intellectual property of Adobe which may be why C1 doesn't like them. Maybe P1 are avoiding getting too entangled in Adobe's intellectual property.
...

On a related note, there was an intro to C1-5 I attended recently and interestingly the speaker made a remark that DNG is Adobe's intellectual property. Many tout DNG as being an "open" standard but this is NOT the same as being in the public domain.

Quote from: alain
I wouldn't use them either in this case.  Practicaly that means that it's a closed system.  It's a shame that some people regard those as "standard", very bad practice.

I agree, there are potential concerns with using formats which are the intellectual property of a particular company. What's stopping new management decisions of said large, stock market traded, corporation to cause unforeseen complications to one's image data (meta, RAW, or otherwise)?

While it's unfortunate that a situation has arisen where standard ways of handling metadata have evolved around implementations that are a profit driven corporation's intellectual property and that Adobe hasn't released their XMP implementations and for that matter DNG  implementations into the public domain XMP it is at least more "open" than C1's proprietary way of storing the metadata. At least, in the sense of being readable by other existing programs.

On the other hand, CaptureOne 4-5's new .EIP (Enhanced Image Package) is based on the ZIP file format. Which means one's RAW file can supposedly be unwrapped from that package by any program which can unarchive zip files. Unlike Adobe's DNG format where one's data ends up being wrapped up in a corporation's particular intellectual property format. Thus, .EIP avoids the DNG "lock-in" and the much narrower range of programs able to open the Adobe box.

-Anthony
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Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 10:14:28 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
this is how it looks like

Photomechanic
[attachment=17740:pm_iptc.jpg]

C1 V5.0
[attachment=17741:c1_iptc.jpg]


the * fields are not displayed / passed through. According to Photomechanic they are XMP only.
Thanks Tho_mas.
Another question. Are you using sidecars or embedding the metadata into the RAWs?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 10:20:21 AM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
Are you using sidecars...
what is that? :-)
I've just downloaded the Demo of Photomechanic to check this issue. I don't know the software, sorry.
In Photomechanic I click on the "I" icon on the image. I edit IPTC and hit "ok"... so I think it's embedded in the RAW file...?
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AnthonyAdachi
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 10:35:52 AM »
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Quote from: Adrian Lambert
2 reasons that we have stuck with embedding is that we feared the sidecars and RAWs had the potential to be separated. Earlier on in our workflow we used to move RAW files into a selects folder then use that as the capture folder within C1. This isn't something that we do these days, but the potential for separation still concerns us.

While I haven't used CaptureOne's new Enhanced Image Package option myself, I wonder if there's a way to wrap an XMP side car into an .EIP package? Seeing that .EIP is based on the zip file format perhaps there are opportunities to come up with an automated process via scripting? That could also help to keep CaptureOne's associated settings files together if one uses a program other than CaptureOne to move them around?

On second thought since initially posting this message...

That proposed solution is not likely going to make one's life much easier as other programs are currently highly unlikely to be able to read inside the .EIP package and "see" the XMP side car. Scripted workarounds would likely come with their own complications.

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The second is that we haven't experienced in all the years of shooting digital any corruption that we could blame on metadata embedding.

It's not just the potential for corruption is the issue it's also the potential for making a RAW file "unreadable" by other current and future RAW processors not expecting metadata to be embedded in that file or in way that the processor doesn't expect. That was my experience with using Nikon's 4.x software to add metadata to some NEF files which CaptureOne 3.7.x couldn't read thereafter.

Quote
This is so disappointing when it's 4.5 years since the IPTC Photo Metadata Standards was updated to include XMP, and it's only been updated once. Hardly difficult for software publishers to keep up with.

One would think that would be the case! However, there's not much flash and glam about metadata compared to adding fancy image editing features. Metadata and other issues which can have indirect consequences to the protection of photographers' own intellectually property appears to be less of a priority amongst some software publishers.

Quote
(Thanks for the link to the CV list too, I'll get over there when I have some time later in the weekend.)

No problem. It's a great list.

-Anthony
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:07:56 AM by AnthonyAdachi » Logged
alain
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 11:31:56 AM »
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Quote from: AnthonyAdachi
...

While it's unfortunate that a situation has arisen where standard ways of handling metadata have evolved around implementations that are a profit driven corporation's intellectual property and that Adobe hasn't released their XMP implementations and for that matter DNG  implementations into the public domain XMP it is at least more "open" than C1's proprietary way of storing the metadata. At least, in the sense of being readable by other existing programs.

...

-Anthony
Anthony

XMP is maybe better readable by humans, but I doubt any decent programmer would have difficulties reading any metadata.  Even ecrypting it is technically not easy, but that gives in some countries legal problems.

BTW. Almost all RAW convertors read almost all RAW formats and they are all proprietary, including DNG.
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Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2009, 08:53:32 PM »
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Regarding XMP and DNG's openness.

TIFF is also the intellectual property of Adobe i believe after they bought aldus. I imagine you'd be keen to have that kept in your software though if you were a publisher.

It would however be a very nice offering were adobe to release the copyrights for XMP and DNG to a public body as per jpeg. Having said that they seem to have kept tiff in good condition so it wouldn't be crazy to assume that it will do the same with dng and xmp. Adobe Photoshop is still the defacto standard for finishing images, so whatever is in it's place needs to play seemlessly with adobe anyway.

The issue here is that we as photographers want to be able to craft our workflow with whatever software fits our process best. Software publishers would do well to share the sorts of information that will enable this in order to make their wares more appealing to the industry. Metadata and file formats are that sort of information. Phase One haven't made public their systems as far as I'm aware so in this case they are the bad guys.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 08:55:37 PM by Adrian Lambert » Logged
Mike Boden
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 02:42:21 PM »
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I just tried a test, and I concur that there is a problem with the IPTC metadata not being passed through Capture One v5 processing. It appears that the only metadata that is passed through are the keywords. Here is my test, which was done in Windows Vista 64bit:

1. Create a new session in Capture One v5.
2. Quit application.
3. Copy RAW CR2 file to "Capture" folder via Finder.
4. Open PhotoMechanic and browse to this "Capture" folder.
5. Assign IPTC metadata as follows within PhotoMechanic:

6. Quit PhotoMechanic
7. Open CaptureOne v5 and look at metadata for this image. You'll see that it recognizes all data that was input:

8. I then process the image and open it in PhotoShop. When I look at the File Info, you'll see that the only metadata that is kept is the keywords. NOTHING ELSE IS TRANSFERRED THROUGH.

9. And the same holds true when looking at the metadata in Bridge:


So...this is broken. (But you already knew that.) How is it that Capture One v5 can see the embedded metadata in the RAW CR2 file but only pass through the keywords? Totally f'd up in my opinion.

And by the way, I did the exact same test, but input the metadata within Bridge instead of PhotoMechanic, and the exact same thing happens. ONLY THE KEYWORDS ARE PASSED THROUGH....NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!! So what this says is that it doesn't matter whether the metadata is embedded within the CR2 or if it's in a XMP sidecar file. Either way, it sees all of the metadata that was input, but only passes through the keywords.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 04:26:43 PM by bodenzord » Logged

Adrian Lambert
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 07:39:20 PM »
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Quote from: bodenzord
it sees all of the metadata that was input, but only passes through the keywords.
not quite the same as the issue that i saw. If you click on the metadata settings triangle thingy! it's on the top right of the metadata tab, you can load the metadata from the file/sidecar. It would be better if C1 could detect when the file had changed. By the way if the files have metadata before they are loaded by C1 the metadata appears fine.
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