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Author Topic: David Farkas has posted his Leica S2 review  (Read 19687 times)
pschefz
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2009, 01:03:34 AM »
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Quote from: rethmeier
I think it looks like an awesome camera.
If it had 3  Tilt Shift lenses readily available,I certainly would consider one.
Best,
Willem.

itching again? i thought you were happy with the d3x?

seriously....i read the "review" and as much as i think it was a nice description of david's experience with the S2, i just can't forget that david has (as a leica dealer) large interest in making the S2 a success....not that i actually believe that he can make it one by himself by writing about it in his blog...

i also read the m9 "review" and disagree with a lot that is said there, i obviously can't say anything about the S2 because i haven't seen or held it....

either way...this is a dealer selling his goods....anyone should keep that in mind....

i am looking forward to michael's review....i really liked his openness about the x1....you just can't take any of these systems out of competition....and there is a lot of competition out there....for a lot less money....

about the "fun shoot"....i wasn't there...i don't care...but i find it heard warming that in these times someone takes the time and the considerable expense to put on a shoot on the beach complete with model and all...just for fun and friends...i am sure these expenses also weren't write-offs and david would put these things on if he wasn't selling cameras and other gear.....

the S2 looks great, i am sure the lenses are great, but there is nothing there we haven't seen or can't have better, cheaper somewhere else....but of course that won't stop people from buying it....good for them....and i am sure david will be happy to sell....good for him, he can put on more fun shoots....just for fun...
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2009, 01:42:58 AM »
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David:  FWIW, thank you for the in-depth review you did of this camera.  I know Michael will have his own views and I look forward to reading them as well, but that in no way diminishes or denigrates your own experience.

Mike.
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2009, 01:50:55 AM »
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2 reviews, if they ever happen, are going to be worth reading;

One made by gwhitf and the other by bcooter.

Both are working, successful pros, with tons of experience in shooting any existing or non existing cameras, lenses and software packages. In studio and out on the beach, tethered or not, low iso and high iso, jpeg and/ raw, strobe, HMI or dim sunset light, moving subjects or stiff models.

Both (I guess) will invest if the system fits their needs and their style and if it can make them happier or more successful.

They also have excellent writing skills and the ability to deliver real world information and experiences in an interesting way and there is no way they can be biased towards anything!

David, if you rise to the challenge and you get to sell to these two, you will get the utmost satisfaction and you will win two customers of the highest level. Let me know if you need their numbers.

I look forward...

Yair
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 06:29:09 AM by yaya » Logged

Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Mamiya Leaf |
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2009, 06:02:39 AM »
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since i have never read anything from david which sounds even slightly critical of leica, i have to disregard the superlative adjectives which which he praises the S2.
so what remains from his review for me are the files. after having seen his images and much more recent DNGs all i can say so far is: nice IQ at base iso, although i believe
that DR-wise the S2 is behind modern CMOS technology as well as behind the top MF offerings. but of course this needs further testing. at higher than base iso there
is a very fast decay of IQ, which becomes rather dramatic > iso 600.
i do believe that the camera handles very nicely, which certainly has a seductive effect on photographers and testers. if we only talk IQ, there is nothing special about the S2.
or do we really need another CCD-dinosaur quasi-MF camera?
peter


Quote from: pschefz
itching again? i thought you were happy with the d3x?

seriously....i read the "review" and as much as i think it was a nice description of david's experience with the S2, i just can't forget that david has (as a leica dealer) large interest in making the S2 a success....not that i actually believe that he can make it one by himself by writing about it in his blog...

i also read the m9 "review" and disagree with a lot that is said there, i obviously can't say anything about the S2 because i haven't seen or held it....

either way...this is a dealer selling his goods....anyone should keep that in mind....

i am looking forward to michael's review....i really liked his openness about the x1....you just can't take any of these systems out of competition....and there is a lot of competition out there....for a lot less money....

about the "fun shoot"....i wasn't there...i don't care...but i find it heard warming that in these times someone takes the time and the considerable expense to put on a shoot on the beach complete with model and all...just for fun and friends...i am sure these expenses also weren't write-offs and david would put these things on if he wasn't selling cameras and other gear.....

the S2 looks great, i am sure the lenses are great, but there is nothing there we haven't seen or can't have better, cheaper somewhere else....but of course that won't stop people from buying it....good for them....and i am sure david will be happy to sell....good for him, he can put on more fun shoots....just for fun...
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2009, 06:46:19 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
or do we really need another CCD-dinosaur quasi-MF camera?
peter

Nice epitaph. Kodak and Dalsa are dinosaurs. They laugh at those funny little monkeys

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 06:47:28 AM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2009, 07:38:40 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
2 reviews, if they ever happen, are going to be worth reading;

One made by gwhitf and the other by bcooter.

David, if you rise to the challenge and you get to sell to these two, you will get the utmost satisfaction and you will win two customers of the highest level. Let me know if you need their numbers.

Yair

Except, I believe those two are very committed customers of Dave's Capture Integration.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2009, 07:48:55 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
Nice epitaph. Kodak and Dalsa are dinosaurs. They laugh at those funny little monkeys

Edmund

edmund,
in a way they are dinosaurs in the photographic industry. certainly CCD ist still the state of the art in satellite imaging and
defense contracts but in the photographic applications that 'we' are interested in, CMOS has advanced at an incredible pace
and all CCD technology has done is add MPX (and some sensor real estate).
peter
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bcooter
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« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2009, 01:44:26 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
Except, I believe those two are very committed customers of Dave's Capture Integration.


Billy,

No I don't think I'm committed to any camera store, but let me check.

I'll  look in my closet at my Leather NASCAR Jacket.  I keep it for all of my sponsorships.

Let's see, I've got a deal with Fram Oil Filters, Little Debbie Fruit Cakes, Oh yea Mountain Dew, but no I don't see any Dave's CI.  I do have Dave's Roller Bearings out of Topeka and Dave's Gentlemen's Club over on Culver Blvd, so maybe that would be a conflict.

Hmm, that's interesting, I do have a Podass logo but I think that's a Cajun Hot Sauce, pretty funny logo too, it's got all these guys standing around a barn holding a catfish po' boy.



Yair,

Thanks for the compliment, (if it is a compliment) but Dave Farkas is probably looking for something different.  I kind of knock the paint off of this stuff and I've never gone to the beach with a camera in my hand to have fun.

Tuesday we go to the beach with 2,000 lbs of metal and electricity to work, but it's not really that much fun.

I do own a Leica M 8 and I like it (no pun intended) though I hate the new E.U. rules where you have to wear a sweater on your shoulders when you shoot with it.

Because of this rule when I'm in Continental Europe I use an alias, Maxin Pistole, so nobody knows it's me.

But If I could be so lucky  to test a S-2 first thing I'd do is NOT shoot any orange faces on wrinkled seamless paper, I'd never shoot a color chart and do my best to promise not to shoot an eyeball.

I'd also hire a hair and makeup artist, use talent that actually works, have a full crew and spend some money on the photograph.  

What I would do is shoot the crap out of it tethered, pull the plug, stick the cable back in and see how difficult it is to restart the software.

I'd look at the lcd in bright sunlight and shade, compare it to the computer and see if it's even close to relevant.

I'd shoot the lenses wide open, the camera a 1/30th and push the hell out of the file using a jukebox for a key light.

Most of all I'd go back at 9 pm and batch process our 1,000 files and run a timer.

In the middle of my lunch break I'd put on my most famous French/Italian accent and become Maxin Pistole and call Samy's, SmashBox, Irene's PRS, Pix, Fotocare, The Piers, Splashlight, MattPhot and PearTree and say this;

Uh, " i have zee news Lecias Esses Twos and my  70 meters of milli lens she no works because the focus is behind the front of the panties, so I needs to rent ones or twos of these lens.  Do you have this in stock?  Can you give me these things I need?

Thanks,

Maxin, uh I mean BC.



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gdwhalen
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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2009, 02:03:48 PM »
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[quote name='bcooter' date='Nov 14 2009, 02:44 PM' post='324871']
Billy,



I do own a Leica M 8 and I like it (no pun intended) though I hate the new E.U. rules where you have to wear a sweater on your shoulders when you shoot with it.




That was funny.
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markowich
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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2009, 02:58:29 PM »
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.....could you also, please, at some point turn off your high powered light(n)ing stuff and dial in a value above base iso? just up to 650....thanks, peter

Quote from: bcooter
Billy,

No I don't think I'm committed to any camera store, but let me check.

I'll  look in my closet at my Leather NASCAR Jacket.  I keep it for all of my sponsorships.

Let's see, I've got a deal with Fram Oil Filters, Little Debbie Fruit Cakes, Oh yea Mountain Dew, but no I don't see any Dave's CI.  I do have Dave's Roller Bearings out of Topeka and Dave's Gentlemen's Club over on Culver Blvd, so maybe that would be a conflict.

Hmm, that's interesting, I do have a Podass logo but I think that's a Cajun Hot Sauce, pretty funny logo too, it's got all these guys standing around a barn holding a catfish po' boy.



Yair,

Thanks for the compliment, (if it is a compliment) but Dave Farkas is probably looking for something different.  I kind of knock the paint off of this stuff and I've never gone to the beach with a camera in my hand to have fun.

Tuesday we go to the beach with 2,000 lbs of metal and electricity to work, but it's not really that much fun.

I do own a Leica M 8 and I like it (no pun intended) though I hate the new E.U. rules where you have to wear a sweater on your shoulders when you shoot with it.

Because of this rule when I'm in Continental Europe I use an alias, Maxin Pistole, so nobody knows it's me.

But If I could be so lucky  to test a S-2 first thing I'd do is NOT shoot any orange faces on wrinkled seamless paper, I'd never shoot a color chart and do my best to promise not to shoot an eyeball.

I'd also hire a hair and makeup artist, use talent that actually works, have a full crew and spend some money on the photograph.  

What I would do is shoot the crap out of it tethered, pull the plug, stick the cable back in and see how difficult it is to restart the software.

I'd look at the lcd in bright sunlight and shade, compare it to the computer and see if it's even close to relevant.

I'd shoot the lenses wide open, the camera a 1/30th and push the hell out of the file using a jukebox for a key light.

Most of all I'd go back at 9 pm and batch process our 1,000 files and run a timer.

In the middle of my lunch break I'd put on my most famous French/Italian accent and become Maxin Pistole and call Samy's, SmashBox, Irene's PRS, Pix, Fotocare, The Piers, Splashlight, MattPhot and PearTree and say this;

Uh, " i have zee news Lecias Esses Twos and my  70 meters of milli lens she no works because the focus is behind the front of the panties, so I needs to rent ones or twos of these lens.  Do you have this in stock?  Can you give me these things I need?

Thanks,

Maxin, uh I mean BC.
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bcooter
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« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2009, 03:30:39 PM »
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Quote from: markowich
.....could you also, please, at some point turn off your high powered light(n)ing stuff and dial in a value above base iso? just up to 650....thanks, peter

All kidding aside.

I didn't see Mr. Farkas' beach shoot,   I really don't know anything about it, (actually didn't know who Mr. Farkas was until he posted on this forum)  though I have seen other samples from the S-2 and like most high end camera test samples that float around the web, they're low budget and awful.

I guess it depends on who they market to, but other than Hasselblad, every one of the specialty camera makers does a dismal job of presenting images and marketing.  Leaf use to be real good at it and built a reputation and following as a photographer's film like digital back,
but the recent Leaf website looks pretty sparse from the "good ol' days".    

Yair knows this, he had a lot to do with building Leaf's rep and I'm sure let loose with some budget he could put Leaf back where it was.  He knew you talked film like, and beauty and photographic terms, not pixel peeping, eye bleeding detail that nobody wants to see anyway.

It just seems like the makers of these cameras either go full zoot retouched or show some alley shot, or color chart laying in the weeds.

It's the same with the videos.  They always show someone shooting with a camera but not much information on what happens during a pressured shoot where things can go wrong, (and if they can they usually will) or what happens to the images after the shoot.

There is a place for medium format in the world of editorial and commerce, but rarely do the makers show that place, which in most images comes with creative briefs, schedules, budgets, gallery delivery, selection of images, retouching, coloring to finish out under unbelievable deadlines and very high expectations.

IMO, the camera makers would do themselves a favor to really show a working scenario, what happens when things go bad like a stylist trips on a fw cord, or when a client says in the middle of shooting "let's process out 10 files to send to the VP of marketing on jpegs".

They should take this or any camera, beat the living hell out of it, shoot it like they stole it and then go into post production showing start to finish.

There's value in that type of unvarnished review and we all know that no camera is perfect.  I think it's better to say "well, it took 4 minutes to restart the computer after the software crashed", than to let the buyer find it out later.  I think it's important to show the truth behind the image.

We all know every image that has international play usually has a fair amount of retouching and manipulation.  Show it, show how the file holds up.

That's the value in one of these expensive cameras, not going out and showing bad samples, or a fun shoot and don't show just one session repeated over and over.  Do the real world thing and most importantly show beautiful final imagery.  Always.

Again, IMO.

BC

P.S.   And never show one of those head and shoulder shots with 10,000 watts of profoto.  Every digital image from almost any camera at that crop with that much light looks really detailed.

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2009, 05:41:56 PM »
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Just to be positive, I absolutely agree!

Erik

Quote from: wolfnowl
David:  FWIW, thank you for the in-depth review you did of this camera.  I know Michael will have his own views and I look forward to reading them as well, but that in no way diminishes or denigrates your own experience.

Mike.
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« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2009, 05:45:25 PM »
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Just to be positive, I absolutely agree!

Erik

Quote from: wolfnowl
David:  FWIW, thank you for the in-depth review you did of this camera.  I know Michael will have his own views and I look forward to reading them as well, but that in no way diminishes or denigrates your own experience.

Mike.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2009, 07:07:10 PM »
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Quote from: Yelhsa
Can we please have a show of hands then, as to who want's to be the photographer, who looks like he doesn't know what he's doing.

Come on BC, it's called advertising - you know how it works - we all do.
Lets face it, it's what most of us do for a living, day in, day out.

So why expect these companies to do anything different than you do... because I'm sure you don't show your new clients all the out-takes, of things that have gone wrong during shoots.

Different level of speech. A camera manufacturer would have to show us how they messed up their R&D and production to do what you are suggesting.

BC's suggestion makes total sense and the equivalent of it for a photographer is simply to show how his end images can help promote a product.

Cheers,
Bernard

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A few images online here!
PeterA
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« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2009, 07:33:05 PM »
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...

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 08:50:24 PM by PeterA » Logged
gdwhalen
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« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2009, 08:53:27 PM »
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Quote from: PeterA
...


smart move Peter.
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PeterA
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2009, 12:03:12 AM »
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How did that song go again?

Let it be ...
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lowep
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2009, 01:50:05 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
.....could you also, please, at some point turn off your high powered light(n)ing stuff and dial in a value above base iso? just up to 650....thanks, peter

if somebody could get permission to shoot this rig at even 400asa  
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2009, 04:48:12 AM »
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maybe the leica is a nice camera. maybe leica will survive it.
i give them a bit more chances now than i did before, i even did not believed that this S2 project will arrive at the market and obviously i was wrong.  
i think you have to have either enough money not to care about it at all, or not being aware what happened in the last 2 years ( HY6 !!! )  to buy in such system and to believe you can use your optics in 3 years with the next leica S3 too.
maybe yes. maybe not. thats why i`d call it very brave to buy in it.

..... and ....... soon canon will knock at the 30mp gate. but as long there are people who believe that 16 claimed  bit are visible better than 14 , maybe there is enough money there to let leica live a while longer. yes, i know, the optics. and the red dot ......
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 04:56:22 AM by rainer_v » Logged

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stevesanacore
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2009, 06:54:24 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
All kidding aside.

I didn't see Mr. Farkas' beach shoot,   I really don't know anything about it, (actually didn't know who Mr. Farkas was until he posted on this forum)  though I have seen other samples from the S-2 and like most high end camera test samples that float around the web, they're low budget and awful.

I guess it depends on who they market to, but other than Hasselblad, every one of the specialty camera makers does a dismal job of presenting images and marketing.  Leaf use to be real good at it and built a reputation and following as a photographer's film like digital back,
but the recent Leaf website looks pretty sparse from the "good ol' days".    

Yair knows this, he had a lot to do with building Leaf's rep and I'm sure let loose with some budget he could put Leaf back where it was.  He knew you talked film like, and beauty and photographic terms, not pixel peeping, eye bleeding detail that nobody wants to see anyway.

It just seems like the makers of these cameras either go full zoot retouched or show some alley shot, or color chart laying in the weeds.

It's the same with the videos.  They always show someone shooting with a camera but not much information on what happens during a pressured shoot where things can go wrong, (and if they can they usually will) or what happens to the images after the shoot.

There is a place for medium format in the world of editorial and commerce, but rarely do the makers show that place, which in most images comes with creative briefs, schedules, budgets, gallery delivery, selection of images, retouching, coloring to finish out under unbelievable deadlines and very high expectations.

IMO, the camera makers would do themselves a favor to really show a working scenario, what happens when things go bad like a stylist trips on a fw cord, or when a client says in the middle of shooting "let's process out 10 files to send to the VP of marketing on jpegs".

They should take this or any camera, beat the living hell out of it, shoot it like they stole it and then go into post production showing start to finish.

There's value in that type of unvarnished review and we all know that no camera is perfect.  I think it's better to say "well, it took 4 minutes to restart the computer after the software crashed", than to let the buyer find it out later.  I think it's important to show the truth behind the image.

We all know every image that has international play usually has a fair amount of retouching and manipulation.  Show it, show how the file holds up.

That's the value in one of these expensive cameras, not going out and showing bad samples, or a fun shoot and don't show just one session repeated over and over.  Do the real world thing and most importantly show beautiful final imagery.  Always.

Again, IMO.

BC

P.S.   And never show one of those head and shoulder shots with 10,000 watts of profoto.  Every digital image from almost any camera at that crop with that much light looks really detailed.


I agree 100%, but as has been the case with strobes, carts, cases, stands, tripods etc etc etc.... it's up to us to find out which gear is REALLY designed to hold up to the rigors of what we do in the real world.  There is no excuse for software issues from accidental disconnects these days. That is a major problem and no manufacturer should be selling to professionals with that issue. Fix it first and please - all reviewers should check this issue out when testing these cameras. Why should we spend 30K+ on any camera without stable software, bright VGA LCDs, tethering, live view, etc etc etc...



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