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Author Topic: Sensor to Sensor  (Read 11062 times)
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2009, 07:16:01 PM »
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Quote from: Professional
so what to do if we can't afford cameras that cost about $50k up to $100k for a certain job?

As I said, not everyone needs them.  Not everyone values the difference.  And not everyone can afford them.  You make do with what you have, because it is either good enough for you, good enough for your client, or just as good as you can get.

But that doesn't mean it's equal.

My point is more about making generalizations about others based on oneself.  So these questions and conclusions are for each individual person and can't be extrapolated out to apply to anyone except oneself.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 07:16:17 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

DanielStone
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« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2009, 07:35:50 PM »
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Chris,

thanks for this insightful comparison. I am still really struggling with my love of 4x5 and rollfilm use on a 4x5 sinar p2, but at the expense of time lost for processing/scanning and film expense, not to mention polaroid....

I would love to get a back, right now I'm looking at the Aptus II 5 EVERYDAY. EVERY DAMN DAY. boy I'd like to get my hands on one of those. 4x5 Provia, E100G and astia get me where I need to go most of the time. Sometimes some 160VC thrown in when I can't control the ambient contrast and need the latitude. But no bother.... I won't bore you.

but to be quite frank, every time I look at YOUR photographs, I'm moved. There are lots of great photographers out there, who get lots of work. However, there are a very small percentage of them who are creating beautiful work. You can generally tell when they put feeling, heart and soul into their photography. I can tell that YOU do this on every shot you post, or ones I see on your site. Even the 'product' shots on your blog post for the M-Line 2. better than Arca Swiss' on their site!


if only I were in the chicago area, I'd love to find out if you offer internships to students to work for you. maybe someday after I'm out of school. architecture isn't my end goal for photography. Comm. advertising is where I want to go. But if I had a 'minor' in something, it would be architecture. I can't get it out of my blood  .


thanks for this post. maybe I should be looking at the D3x and 5DII's instead of a back. but the 16bit starting option gives one more options when 'pushing' files to the break/"please don't blow-out" point. every little bit helps IMO.

-Dan
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CBarrett
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« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2009, 07:58:06 PM »
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That's very kind of you Daniel.  And, yes, I friggin love my job!  I still can't quite believe I get to make pictures for a living and can't imagine how people go to the same place everyday working 60-70 hour weeks.  I'm very fortunate.

If you're ever in Chicago you're welcome to come out to some shoots.
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carstenw
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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2009, 02:42:44 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
That's very kind of you Daniel.  And, yes, I friggin love my job!  I still can't quite believe I get to make pictures for a living and can't imagine how people go to the same place everyday working 60-70 hour weeks.  I'm very fortunate.

If you're ever in Chicago you're welcome to come out to some shoots.

In addition to a shot exposed for the highlights and shadows pulled up, it might also be interesting to do a shot in tungsten lighting, and compare after white balance.
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CBarrett
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« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2009, 07:51:23 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
In addition to a shot exposed for the highlights and shadows pulled up, it might also be interesting to do a shot in tungsten lighting, and compare after white balance.


Actually I've been thinking about setting up a shot with my monoblocks, shooting it strobe and then using just the modeling lights, and shooting it tungsten then comparing the blue noise.  I've put the test off because I'm sure it will annoy me given I shoot primarily hotlight.

OMG.... can you imagine if digi-backs could be manufactured to specific color balances other than daylight?  Then I'd need 3 P65+'s!  Day, Tung and Flor! Just like the old days of carrying multiple film stocks and a stack of filters!

All Florescent Space = EPN with 80D + 10M
Daylight and Florescent mix = EPN with 82A + 5M
Mostly Daylight (coming through glass) and some Florescent = EPN with 10M and 1/4 Green on the strobes

EPN... that stock had no saturation which made it excellent for mixed lighting situations but it always just looked like crap to me....Magenta highlights, Green shadows and like 6 stops of latitude

You guys really miss film?  I know a studio that has a palette of EPN Readyload I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you!

-C
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gwhitf
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« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2009, 08:06:48 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
and shooting it tungsten then comparing the blue noise.  I've put the test off because I'm sure it will annoy me given I shoot primarily hotlight.

Your testing inspired me to do testing yesterday, with my 5D2 and my P45+. Last night, I did a Tungsten Test, using Profoto Tungstens, and comparing the Blue Channel of P45+ to the 5D2, the P45+ looked like a Clunky Snowstorm of Funk, whereas the 5d2 was pretty smooth. Same scene, same ASA (400). Obviously it was the ASA that killed it, but still, in the real world, every shot ain't Bright Light California.

And for the record, I have no dog in this fight. I'm just looking to learn. Ideally, I'd love to arrive at ONE camera system and sell the rest. I'm not looking to be Jack of All Trades. But I'm willing to let the chips fall where they may. But for me, Usability in general, in the real world, is my main driving force. And if I was really truthful, I'd rather use MF, because I grew up on it. But again, the chips can fall where they may.

But I was surprised when I toggled on the Blue Channel. Again, advantage Canon.

For you, Christopher, being a Tripod Guy, why are you even testing this stuff? Just throw on the P65+ and get on with your life. If you're a Tripod Guy, the P65+ is the only choice, to me. The tripod makes everything MF possible.
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2009, 08:07:32 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Actually I've been thinking about setting up a shot with my monoblocks, shooting it strobe and then using just the modeling lights, and shooting it tungsten then comparing the blue noise.  I've put the test off because I'm sure it will annoy me given I shoot primarily hotlight.

OMG.... can you imagine if digi-backs could be manufactured to specific color balances other than daylight?  Then I'd need 3 P65+'s!  Day, Tung and Flor! Just like the old days of carrying multiple film stocks and a stack of filters!

All Florescent Space = EPN with 80D + 10M
Daylight and Florescent mix = EPN with 82A + 5M
Mostly Daylight (coming through glass) and some Florescent = EPN with 10M and 1/4 Green on the strobes

EPN... that stock had no saturation which made it excellent for mixed lighting situations but it always just looked like crap to me....Magenta highlights, Green shadows and like 6 stops of latitude

You guys really miss film?  I know a studio that has a palette of EPN Readyload I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you!

-C

I used to by Fuji sheet  RTP by 5 case lots. I liked the green boxes.  I don't use strobe that much, I do love my old Moles.  I can't imagine going backwards at this point. I don't even own a film camera anymore. I do miss the feeling of working with the Sinars and Horseman's, I don't miss the film....
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Craig Lamson Photo
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2009, 08:08:03 AM »
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I do not miss color film so much, although it did work well in nice sunlight, but the B/W film.  If you know of anyone needing to unload 4x5 sheets of Tri-X 320, I might be interested, and if you have a friend with too much potassium chloroplatinite powder or palladium chloride powder on his hands.
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
"Try not to be just better than your rivals and contemporaries, try to be better than yourself."  William Faulkner
CBarrett
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« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2009, 08:34:33 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
For you, Christopher, being a Tripod Guy, why are you even testing this stuff? Just throw on the P65+ and get on with your life. If you're a Tripod Guy, the P65+ is the only choice, to me. The tripod makes everything MF possible.

You know, I have no Idea!  In the end I will most certainly put the P65+ back on the tripod and put the D3 back in the shoulder bag where it spends most of it's time.  This was a comparison that I think couldn't be done without the Arca and it's dslr mounting kit.  I was equipped to setup a scenario that I haven't seen anyone else do and the pure science of it drew me in.

I don't think there is any magic bullet out there.  I shot this new restaurant last month and needed every bit (pun) of information I could eek out of those files and am thankful those images were recorded through the Rodenstock's and onto the P65+.  I have to go back to the same restaurant and grab some candids of the space now that it's crazy busy and I will definitely be reaching for the Nikon.  Tools.  Know your tools.

/rant
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carstenw
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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2009, 09:05:36 AM »
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I did an experiment a while back with a blue filter and tungsten lighting, to see if you could get better images. I used my M8, but it could have been anything. The theory is that correcting the light before the sensor gets a cleaner file with no extra pressure on the blue channel to correct the yellow lighting.

Anyway, it worked, the file was cleaner, but in the end, the filter had a +1 factor and the improvement was just less than a stop, so for hand-held photography, it gained a stop of cleanliness at the cost of going to the next ISO level. Not worth it.

On the tripod though, it should work. I am considering stocking up on filters again, to get cleaner files in all lighting.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2009, 09:20:05 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
I have to go back to the same restaurant and grab some candids of the space now that it's crazy busy and I will definitely be reaching for the Nikon.  Tools.  Know your tools.
/rant

"I no do Candeeds! Do you know who I amz? You want Candeeds, call zee 35mm guy with heez snap-snap-snapper! I am a Specialist, and I amz paid well for my veezhun! Hmph!"
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CBarrett
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« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2009, 09:27:15 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
"I no do Candeeds! Do you know who I amz? You want Candeeds, call zee 35mm guy with heez snap-snap-snapper! I am a Specialist, and I amz paid well for my veezhun! Hmph!"


gw,  actually I don't really do candeeds, these might totally suck.  I applaud the guys that can do that well, like wedding shooters.

Carsten.... I dunno, man... this vision scares me a little...


Subject ---> $20 Filter ---> $3k Lens ---> $40k Digi Back


Still worth a test though, I think I still have my cc filters.
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Harold Clark
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« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2009, 09:27:22 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
LoL.  Well, yes.  And I shoot for Herman Miller... I traded a day of photography for that red plywood chair and 3 Eames Storage Units.

Oh Oh, Let's hope the Minister of Finance isn't reading this, he will want half that chair.

Thanks for the test , I often contemplate acquiring a MF system. I can't make a business case for it based solely on numbers ( my clients probably won't notice the difference and certainly won't want to pay extra ). But there is a real pleasure in using the best tools that goes beyond dollars & cents. A BMW, Audi, Jaguar etc, or a basic Hyundai will get you from point A to B, but which would you rather drive.

If the new Canon is 30MP+ and scraps the AA filter, it will further weaken the case for MF, especially with the new stellar shift lenses. In the meantime I get my resolution fix by dragging out the 5x7 or 8x10 for personal work.

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carstenw
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« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2009, 10:27:44 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
gw,  actually I don't really do candeeds, these might totally suck.  I applaud the guys that can do that well, like wedding shooters.

Carsten.... I dunno, man... this vision scares me a little...


Subject ---> $20 Filter ---> $3k Lens ---> $40k Digi Back


Still worth a test though, I think I still have my cc filters.

I am sure you can find more expensive filters than that. Just look at Leica filters, for example  Of course, they don't make many. I guess Schneider (B+W) filters would be good enough even for $5k lenses.

This does raise an interesting question though: what is the native white balance of the MFDB? It may not be a relevant question though, since all filters correct w.r.t. daylighth, to my knowledge, except for specialty daylight filters for tungsten films and the like. This means we would always set WB to daylight and add the correct filter, to get the cleanest channels. This would work for a 35mm DSLR too, of course, so it wouldn't change the balance between the two.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 10:30:17 AM by carstenw » Logged

DanielStone
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« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2009, 10:44:41 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
I know a studio that has a palette of EPN Readyload I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you!

-C

I'd be interested in some. have em post it on ebay . they'll get some takers there. let us know if they do please .

-Dan
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CBarrett
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« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2009, 11:05:48 AM »
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Quote from: DanielStone
I'd be interested in some. have em post it on ebay . they'll get some takers there. let us know if they do please .

-Dan


EPN Readyload.  They have about 4000 sheets, the PPB is $35 ea. Expired 0/4 0/9

emails to jon at hedrichblessing (dot) com
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DanielStone
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« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2009, 12:13:52 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
EPN Readyload.  They have about 4000 sheets, the PPB is $35 ea. Expired 0/4 0/9

emails to jon at hedrichblessing (dot) com


thanks Chris, I'll see about emailing them.

blessings

Dan
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DanielStone
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« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2009, 12:17:44 PM »
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Chris,

when you shot film, and with digital today I would imagine theres no need to,

did you use a color meter? I'd think that after shooting EPN for so long, you'd have what it does in what light quite pat...

the reason being I've been watching them go on ebay, ones such as the Minolta IIIF. heard they're very good.


-Dan
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