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Author Topic: Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host  (Read 30907 times)
JeffKohn
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 12:21:29 PM »
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But I also think it's rather embarrassing for Capture One, to have a blog up where the photos are shall we say, below par.
I have to agree, especially since some of the images were not just P&S shots, but were taken with Phase-One backs and are equally awful. Snapshots of attendees participating in the workshop are one thing, but some of the model/landscape shots taken with the P65+ backs are absolutely dreadful. I'm not sure what they were trying to communicate with those images, but posting such terrible images isn't very good advertising for their digital backs.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2009, 12:43:12 PM »
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I'm outraged!  harumph!  harumph!  harumph!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2009, 12:59:03 PM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
I have to agree, especially since some of the images were not just P&S shots, but were taken with Phase-One backs and are equally awful. Snapshots of attendees participating in the workshop are one thing, but some of the model/landscape shots taken with the P65+ backs are absolutely dreadful. I'm not sure what they were trying to communicate with those images, but posting such terrible images isn't very good advertising for their digital backs.

I do wonder what the hard working pro's of the digital backs forum think of those who are at a level in their photography where they still need workshops and are producing that low a level of work (even with tuition) - but who seem to feel that they need a P40+ or P65+ to the extent of ordering them mid workshop. I don't blame P1 for pandering to this kind of mentality, they have a job to do, all strength to them. The educators though are IMO well out of line if they are encouraging this kind of thing. It's very much a rich mans posing thing going on it seems. It certainly would not be tolerated at any respected university or school. This is however is my own personal opinion, I have zero respect for KR.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 12:59:28 PM by pom » Logged

Daniel Browning
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 01:05:27 PM »
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If Ken’s understanding of color spaces is any indication, anything he says should be immediately dismissed as that of a troll looking for attention and nothing more.

How could you possibly impugn his understanding of color spaces? The man himself writes:

[blockquote]Did you know I conceived the world's first dedicated digital colorspace converter chip, the TMC2272, back in 1990 when I worked at TRW LSI Products? I've been working with the matrix math, hardware and software that does this for decades. I also coined the word "gigacolors," for use with 36-bit and 48-bit color data. I was only kidding, but the word is still used. TRW LSI was a small, ultra-creative division of TRW, and I got away putting the same mirth I use on this website into the datasheets I wrote. The industry copied us and the word lives on. [/blockquote]

It would be the height of irony for someone to write all that vain puffery in service of an overblown ego without at least having some understanding to go with it. Can you possibly be saying than even in this one area where he might lay valid claim to some modicum of expertise, he is actually just as mistaken as in everything else? Sad.
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2009, 01:56:34 PM »
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Quote from: Jonathan Wienke

Thank you, Jonathan. That makes my day!


Eric

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digitaldog
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2009, 01:58:48 PM »
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Quote from: Daniel Browning
Can you possibly be saying than even in this one area where he might lay valid claim to some modicum of expertise, he is actually just as mistaken as in everything else? Sad.

I can’t say his claims are true or his imagination. I can say his ideas on color spaces show a severe lack of understanding of the topic.
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Andrew Rodney
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2009, 02:01:03 PM »
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Quote from: Daniel Browning
How could you possibly impugn his understanding of color spaces? The man himself writes:

[blockquote]Did you know I conceived the world's first dedicated digital colorspace converter chip, the TMC2272, back in 1990 when I worked at TRW LSI Products? I've been working with the matrix math, hardware and software that does this for decades. I also coined the word "gigacolors," for use with 36-bit and 48-bit color data. I was only kidding, but the word is still used. TRW LSI was a small, ultra-creative division of TRW, and I got away putting the same mirth I use on this website into the datasheets I wrote. The industry copied us and the word lives on. [/blockquote]

It would be the height of irony for someone to write all that vain puffery in service of an overblown ego without at least having some understanding to go with it. Can you possibly be saying than even in this one area where he might lay valid claim to some modicum of expertise, he is actually just as mistaken as in everything else? Sad.
So, his main credential as a color space expert is that he invented the word "gigacolors?" I suspect the janitor could have done that.
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image66
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2009, 02:17:24 PM »
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I find this moral outrage against Ken Rockwell to be rather entertaining.  I think the greater outrage is that the PODAS site showed such horribly inferior images that it opened itself up to Ken Rockwell's criticism. And nobody wants to be subject to the poking of the class clown.

Frankly, I agree with Ken Rockwell on this one.  There is little evidence that this was anything more than a bunch of rich posers learning how to use their cameras and software.

I really wish to be proven wrong on this.  Would somebody please show us some world-class photos?  Claims of "but look at the detail and resolution" don't counteract the fact that the rest of compositions are amateur hour.

But on the flip side, an argument could be made that workshops are all about learning and not about producing so all is forgiven.

Ken Rockwell may have the photographic attention span of a two-year-old, but that cat actually does know a thing or two and he can usually (not always, but usually) back his claims up with proof.

Ken N.
www.zone-10.com
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digitaldog
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2009, 02:29:59 PM »
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Quote from: image66
I think the greater outrage is that the PODAS site showed such horribly inferior images that it opened itself up to Ken Rockwell's criticism.
Maybe this text on the blog was recently updated but its pretty clear what we’re supposed to be viewing:
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The images posted on this blog are basically snap shots for lack of better words to show what attendees were doing the instruction and fun in progress. These ARE NOT final images from Phase One cameras or the attendees.
Quote
There is little evidence that this was anything more than a bunch of rich posers learning how to use their cameras and software.
Maybe but as someone that’s done a few similar seminars, I’m often impressed by the quality of the photography of some rich posers.
Quote
Would somebody please show us some world-class photos?
World class? I suspect we’ll end up seeing some quality photography. And since we’ve yet to see what the blog is intending to be anything but snaps, lets cut them some slack, something Ken apparently can’t do because drawing attention to himself is his goal and M.O.
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Andrew Rodney
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feppe
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2009, 02:33:23 PM »
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Quote from: image66
I find this moral outrage against Ken Rockwell to be rather entertaining.  I think the greater outrage is that the PODAS site showed such horribly inferior images that it opened itself up to Ken Rockwell's criticism. And nobody wants to be subject to the poking of the class clown.

Frankly, I agree with Ken Rockwell on this one.  There is little evidence that this was anything more than a bunch of rich posers learning how to use their cameras and software.

I really wish to be proven wrong on this.  Would somebody please show us some world-class photos?  Claims of "but look at the detail and resolution" don't counteract the fact that the rest of compositions are amateur hour.

But on the flip side, an argument could be made that workshops are all about learning and not about producing so all is forgiven.

Ken Rockwell may have the photographic attention span of a two-year-old, but that cat actually does know a thing or two and he can usually (not always, but usually) back his claims up with proof.

Ken N.
www.zone-10.com

The snapshots on the blog are not taken with Phase cameras, but a point&shoot. There might be some Phase shots there (didn't go through them all), but it is a workshop after all and people were learning the ropes with an MFDB. I don't think any of the photos are meant to showcase the skills of the photographers or the capabilities of Phase backs.

Mr Rockwell is rather uncouth in how he goes after snapshots and presumably* ridicules workshop attendees' accomplishments who were there to learn and see Phase backs in action, rather than produce magazine covers.

Much too much noise about this non-event.

* didn't see the original post
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Mort54
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2009, 02:36:49 PM »
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Well, I'm no KR apologist, and I think he showed considerable lack of judgement and tact in his initial post, BUT the photos he pointed to were truly awful. I suspect what he was trying to say was that it's not the gear that makes the photograph, it's the photographer.
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barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2009, 02:38:43 PM »
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Exif in images shows a Canon G10 and a Phase One for some.

Sorry, but I think it's inappropriate to have poor quality photos on any blog, let alone one that is photography based. I wasn't looking for works of art, or gold medals, but honestly..if the blog guy isn't into photography, let someone take them who is!
Basic stuff like red eye, underexposure, camera shake.

This isn't a blog about some guy doing his garden, you could forgive iffy shots (as he isn't into photography)
Any company or event based blog for photography, should have at least reasonable images on their blog.


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Robert Spoecker
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2009, 02:39:39 PM »
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I visit this site very often but missed this offensive posting as it seems to have been removed very quickly.

Now we are in a large thread and I really do not know what it is about.

Was it so offensive that it can't be reposted or paraphrased in this thread?

Come on guys, has anybody saved the offensive materia so that the rest of us can enjoy the fun also?

I know it is not nice to repeat the offensive material but I feel so left out.      

Robert
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Schewe
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2009, 02:50:34 PM »
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Quote from: image66
I find this moral outrage against Ken Rockwell to be rather entertaining.  I think the greater outrage is that the PODAS site showed such horribly inferior images that it opened itself up to Ken Rockwell's criticism.

You know what a blog is? It's a quick-turn-around, online news letter and in this case the blog had posts made (except the one afternoon where the net went down) when somebody had a spare minute...

The vast majority of the images on the blog were shot with point & shoot (I personally brought my new Canon S90 to shoot snaps with). Those were pretty easy to edit and post quickly...As far as the P65+ shots I did? Heck, I still don't have final edits from Antarctica from Feb, England from July and Southern Utah from Sept. You think I'm gonna have a final selection edit and processed files from Death Valley in less than a week of shooting? Surely you jest...

To give you an idea of our daily schedule, we assembled each day at 5AM to drive to various locations for pre-dawn setup. Sunrise was about 6:18AM. We shot till the light lost it's look. We returned to the Inn for breakfast at 8 or 8:30AM. We then had a morning workshop session, for example–working with Capture One 5.0 (ya see, many of the attendees had never shot a Phase One camera nor used C1). We had lunch then an afternoon session and we assembled at 3PM for the vans to go to the sunset locations (sunset was about 4:28PM or so-depending on the western mountains). We returned for dinner at 6:30-7:30 for dinner, then had an evening session-I did one on integrating Capture One and Lightroom. Pretty much everybody was in bed by 10:30PM (the bar closed at 10PM) and then back up at 4:30AM for the next morning's shoot.

So, based on that shoot schedule, exactly when would you expect people to get final selection edits and final processed images done? Heck, we were just lucky to get the cards downloaded and take a quick glance at what we had just shot, eat, sleep and do it all over again...

I will tell you this, as I was sitting in the back of the meeting room watching people do rough edits of their work, I was rather impressed with the quality of the images...and those images haven't been shown anywhere that I've aware of.

So, you might just want to hold off expressing your "outrage" until you actually have seen some of the final work from the students....
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Mort54
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2009, 02:55:44 PM »
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Quote from: Robert Spoecker
I visit this site very often but missed this offensive posting as it seems to have been removed very quickly.

Now we are in a large thread and I really do not know what it is about.

Was it so offensive that it can't be reposted or paraphrased in this thread?

Come on guys, has anybody saved the offensive materia so that the rest of us can enjoy the fun also?

I know it is not nice to repeat the offensive material but I feel so left out.    
He didn't use offensive language, if that's what you're asking. He basically showed some of the pics taken with P65+ backs at the event and made a number of derisive and very unflattering comments about the pics and the photographers who took them. He didn't name names, other than to note that Michael and a few other notables were associated with the event. His basic point was that here were all these people, who paid a fair amount of money to participate in the event, who were using expensive loaned P65+ backs and Phase One/Mamiya cameras, and wondering if this was the best they could come up with. The pics he linked to were pretty bad (but as Jeff points out, they were quick uploads of unedited and probably unprocessed shots). But what really had everybody up in arms was the tone he used to make his point. He could have made his point without being quite so snarky (to use a modern term).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 03:01:02 PM by Mort54 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2009, 03:01:20 PM »
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Quote from: pom
The educators though are IMO well out of line if they are encouraging this kind of thing.


I suppose you didn't like our going to Antarctica to shoot either? Boy, you must REALLY hate Michael for doing all those workshops all over the world and encouraging pros or amateurs with enough money to go along huh? And you think WE are out of line?

I would be happy to judge YOUR own personal work just as soon as you actually post something on the internet (it seems all your wedding shots are in password protected galleries, don't know what else you shoot). Then when the PODAS students get around finishing we'll compare your stuff to their stuff to see exactly who is out of line...

Actually, it sounds more like sour grapes that the students DO have enough money to go on a really great trip to shoot with really great cameras/backs and have the week to hang out with some really good instructors and learn something. Kinda hard to put a price tag on something like that.

Oh, and yeah...we did have a lot of fun (and made some great images). My apologies if that offends you...
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2009, 03:07:10 PM »
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Quote from: Robert Spoecker
Come on guys, has anybody saved the offensive materia so that the rest of us can enjoy the fun also?

I agree - there's nothing like a good tempas in a teapod to while away a dull afternoon
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Christopher Sanderson
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2009, 03:14:23 PM »
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Quote from: pom
It's very much a rich mans posing thing going on it seems. It certainly would not be tolerated at any respected university or school.

I hope to be rich enough to pose on a sand dune ... and I'd even let another rich guy take my picture with a canon P&S and put it on the web.

Sign me up.

I was never very well-tolerated at school myself ... I was always playing with cameras and stuff instead of going to class ...
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2009, 03:15:32 PM »
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Quote from: Robert Spoecker
Come on guys, has anybody saved the offensive materia so that the rest of us can enjoy the fun also?

Anyone know how to hack the google cache server?  It is in there somewhere ...
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2009, 03:36:57 PM »
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the wayback machine may be of use...
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