Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Re: "A Call For Support"  (Read 9101 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6056


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« on: November 25, 2009, 01:41:13 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
... But we do ask from time to time for your support in the form of a purchase of one of our unique educational video products. We don't want contributions or gifts just that you consider the purchase of one of our modestly priced products...
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Ed Jack
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 02:41:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.


The origional text has been self-removed from here, this was my only post on this thread, but I wish I hadn't got involved. As it had turned nasty and maybe I was provocative (but not wrong) I feel maybe I should just let things go when I read things that I find disproportionate ?! It is quite possible that I may have interpreted the above in too negative a light in any case.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 03:59:34 PM by Ed Jack » Logged
Schewe
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5500


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 03:21:47 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.



The way you say that implies that you've not yet seen either the LR 2 or CS4 Camera Raw guides? If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...

Pretty sure you could buy either and if you DON'T find them useful educational resources, request (and get) a full refund...

Quote
This is not meant as criticism...

Yeah, and you'll love me in the morning and the check is in the mail...
Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6056


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 03:49:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Ed Jack
Oh no not another attention seeker!

Oh no, not another LL Cerberus! I would expect Mr. Schewe to attack, but looks like he inspired a legion of faithfuls.

Quote
I've been visiting this site almost daily and have been doing so for the last 10 years, so I think I know the site quite well. Yes sometimes Michael goes through phases of not making much origonal contribution, but then he normally has a good reason, like being in the wilderness actually doing photography... rather than criticing a free service and forum for phtotgraphers.. oh yeah sorry  I forgot, you weren't criticing were you ?!!

I love it when people start a post "I don't mean to be critical... BUT..." as if it makes them more considered opinions in some way.
How maliciously or benevolently you read my comments is your prerogative, of course... I stand by my initial matter-of-factly remark that the store (not site) does not have much new to offer.

Quote
I not being overly syncophantic here, except to say...

"I love it when people start a post "I don't mean to be sycophantic... BUT..." as if it makes them more considered opinions in some way."  

Quote
... that the products on offer here are unique in many ways, you have a hand full of the publication on the video journals, so I am not sure why you believe this... too much of a good thing maybe?!!
Also I am confident that IF you can supply a review or article of interest to Michael I am sure he would publish it and maybe raise your percieved lack of content atleast in your own mind!

Where exactly did I say anything about uniqueness of the offer? Given that I bought  a decent number of products myself (and will do again, as soon as something new appears), I obviously think the products are unique and valuable. Also, where exactly did I complain about the "lack of content" on the site? Once again, I was talking about the store only.

Quote
To be fair, MR did mention in the same post the number of unique new visitors per day, so why not promote the back catalogue of work, the LL |Video journals are mostly photo technique and location based... this does NOT go out of fashion like techno geek speak, something which is fairly limmited in the products!

Dpreview is still open if you fancy winding them up too, to be honest a pointless thread like this should be removed by the moderators anyway

While I am sure there are new visitors every day, I dare to assume that the bulk of the visitors are the old ones, therefore the bulk of new (monetary) contributions would come from the repeated customers... hence my suggestion that new stuff in the store would help. Now... if a helpful (by intention) suggestion by someone who already and repeatedly sent his money to this site is met with such hostility, what is left for the perceived "enemies" then?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 04:23:58 PM by slobodan56 » Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7680


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 04:31:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

I had bought almost all stuff Michael and friends made, partly for the information and partly because they are great fun. The tutorials are great, giving much insight but also fun. Having a free site is a great advantage. I actually subscribe at least one pay site (DAP and Zeiss Lenses http://www.diglloyd.com ) and also once subscribed to Sean Reid Reviews (good reviews but I hated reading them in flash). There is a lot of positives to say about LL and very little negatives. The forums are of great value as knowledgeable persons often chime in on the discussions.

One suggestion I may make is that Michael could add a 'donate button' trough PayPal.

More frequent LLVJs would be nice. I personally enjoyed the earlier video journals more than the recent ones.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 04:32:20 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

BlasR
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 04:42:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.


Did you start this post to get some attention?
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6056


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 05:07:03 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Schewe
... if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...
Dear Mr. Schewe (with "c")! How would I ever dare to make such a preposterous presumption!? I tend to use Photoshop for reasons not even remotely close to a pissing contest, as you seem to imply.

However, you also seem to imply above something quite interesting as a marketing assumption: that those who are not buying your videos are just being arrogant (by assuming they know the subject better than you do). Trust me, there are gazillion subjects out there where I gladly admit I know way much less than the author... and yet I do not buy those books/videos either.

My point was different: with LR 3 already on the market (beta), and PS5 probably not too far away, my interest in buying educational material for previous versions is simply much smaller then it was when LR 2 and CS4 were a novelty.

Quote
Yeah, and you'll love me in the morning...
In your dreams... I do not like bullies.

Quote
... and the check is in the mail...
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6056


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 05:17:13 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BlasR
Did you start this post to get some attention?
Oh, you got me... you really uncovered my masochistic tendencies to expose myself to the usual flagellation and bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief and the faithfuls.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
michael
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4896



« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 05:18:15 PM »
ReplyReply

OK everyone, calm down.

If you've already purchased some of our videos, thank you.

As for new video content, Chris is just finishing off the next Video Journal, and it should be online before the end of the year.

We will be taping at least two major new tutorials in the months head (meaning this winter) for spring publication.

As for the percentage of visitors who buy something, let's just say that it's less than a few percent of those that visit each month. That's who my message is aimed at, not those that do purchase and who participate here. Your support is greatly appreciated.

Michael
Logged
cmi
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 491


« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 05:31:06 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
It might help to offer something new to buy.

This is not meant as criticism, but rather matter-of-factly. For instance, I already have LLJ #16, 17, and 18, "Guide to Asset Management" and "Camera to Print". Lightroom 2 and CS4 guides are most likely great, but they are old news by now... So, as much as I would like to help the site, there is not much new in the store to buy, at least not for me.

Slobodan,

Im not sure how to say this...

do you really think your are telling Michael something new? I would guess Michael is well aware about the state of his offers. Its not that he would be like "Oh my gosh - yeah, I have to offer something new, I forgot, gee, thanks!" So I wonder what you wanted to accomplish.

Essentially you are stepping up and saying "Nothing I'd like to buy now, give me something new."  No matter how you are saying it, in this context, even more so as the very first answer, honestly, I can understand people interpreting that as offensive. I fully believe you didnt intended to come across like that, you just said what you where thinking, I dont believe you wanted to make an attack on Michael, but thats how it came across at least to me and as it seems also to some others, as at least slightly offensive.

Just had to say that, best wishes to you, and sorry for my bad English,


Christian
Logged
PierreVandevenne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 510


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 05:41:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BlasR
Did you start this post to get some attention?

Quite frankly, and at the risk of becoming a "flamed" customer myself, he has a point. And so does Erik. I really would love new LLVJs. BTW, businesswise, the LLVJ is a great idea. And a constant flow of them would generate a smoother revenue stream for the site, unlike product specific tutorials that have a shelf life similar to niche IT product books.

As far as Ed Jack's answer is concerned, here is my suggestion.

I've been visiting this site about three times a week, for the last three years. He's been visiting the site daily, for the last ten years. Assuming we're using the same bandwidth per visit, he has consumed about 8 times the bandwidth I have consumed. Since bandwidth costs seems to be an issue, I suggest the following: Ed Jack and I will privately compare the total of our LL invoices, multiply it by our bandwidth usage and one of us will adjust its contribution to LL upwards so it matches the other. Deal?
 
Logged
Schewe
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5500


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 06:30:07 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.

Wow...cool but ya know, CS4 shipped with Camera Raw 5.x so once again you are behind the 8-ball...

Quote
Dear Mr. Schewe (with "c")! How would I ever dare to make such a preposterous presumption!? I tend to use Photoshop for reasons not even remotely close to a pissing contest, as you seem to imply.

Not a pissing contest at all...but if you think there's nothing you can learn about LR 2 and Camera Raw 5 in CS4 then I would suggest you are wrong.

If you want more video tutorials, why not tell Adobe to increase the frequency of major new upgrades...say every 6 months of so–that will be sure to blow peoples' heads right off.

:~)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 06:31:13 PM by Schewe » Logged
Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1675


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 07:03:26 PM »
ReplyReply

A simple solution is for those who have the tutorials and want to make a contribution:  simply order the tutorial again, pay the money as an in kind contribution.  Pretty simple solution (at least in my mind).
Logged

John Camp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1259


« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 07:22:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Excuse me for interrupting the pissing contest, but I've never understood why LL -- "lula" -- doesn't have a t-shirt for sale for, say, $20 plus shipping. There's a site called "Hatchwise" in which designers create logos for prices of around $300, and many of the proposals are pretty damn good. After lula got a neat photo-oriented logo, I'll bet you could farm out the manufacture and shipping to a t-shirt site, and LL wouldn't have to do anything but send on the order information...and pick up, I suspect, a pretty nice chunk of cash. If you have a million unique users a month, you probably have a couple of million unique users a year. Sell a t-shirt to 1%, and that's a lot of t-shirts. And baseball caps. Photographers like hats and t-shirts. Especially with a neat logo.

JC
Logged
michael
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4896



« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 08:25:39 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the suggestion John, but I have no interest in selling caps and t-shirts.

This isn't about simply making money. It's trying to get the 990,000 people who visit the site each month, read our dozen or more new articles, review and tutorials, yet who don't consider purchasing one of our video products,  either because they think that it will inform or entertain them, or as a recognition of what they receive without charge.

Michael
Logged
Griffin Friedman
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2009, 12:12:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Schewe
The way you say that implies that you've not yet seen either the LR 2 or CS4 Camera Raw guides? If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong...

I think the point is that there's newer software just around the corner. While that's always the case to some extent, it's especially valid towards the end of a version's life. I imagine sales of the LR2 guide have fallen since it was introduced, and probably took a sharp fall after the introduction of the LR3 beta. This isn't because the content is any less valid or useful, but because consumers want to get the best value for their dollar. Can you understand why I might now want to buy the LR2 tutorial now when I know I'm going to probably want the LR3 tutorial as well, and would rather wait a few months than pay twice?

I bought the LR2 tutorial a month or two before the LR3 beta was released. It was my first Luminous Landscape download. Am I disappointed that I bought it? Not at all. I continue to recommend it to my friends and whenever possible, on other forums. Had the LR3 beta been released I probably would have waited though. Now that I've downloaded and watched it I realize how useful and informative it was, but it was a gamble, and without knowing that I would have most likely waited for the LR3 version to get the best bang for my buck.

One possible way to counteract this cycle of constantly waiting for the next version would be to offer credits or discounted prices to those that have already bought a tutorial, similar to the way apple does others discounted OS updates to those that purchased computers in the weeks before an OS update. This rewards loyalty and provides comfort to those who are worried about newer better versions coming out shortly after they purchase. The downside is that you lose revenue from those that would have purchased the newer version regardless of the cost. I'm sure michael has numbers on how many people do just that, and can decide whether it is worth it.

Another potential option, and something I'd definitely go for, would be the option to pay one higher price up front, and get all future versions of that videos for free. There could even be the option to pay a single fee and have access to all the video content, maybe for a limited amount of time, without having to pay individually.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 12:15:08 AM by panoz7 » Logged
jeremyrh
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2009, 02:06:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: slobodan56
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.
You're a better man than I. I'm sure Schewe has lots to teach me about photography, and I'd benefit enormously from watching his videos and reading his books, but I can't quite bring myself to put money in his pocket. My lack of emotional intelligence, and my loss in the end, no doubt.

I find it hard to believe that your observation generated so much vituperation - it seems quite reasonable to me that someone who has already bought quite a few items from the LL store might be hoping for something new. Of course it might not be cost effective for Michael to feed your habit, rather than market to "virgin" readers, but I don't really see the harm in your explaining how things look from your perspective.

Ho hum ...
Logged
jenbenn
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 69


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2009, 02:30:48 AM »
ReplyReply

I am appalled. I usually read this forum and contribute from time to time because I love the high expertise and the civilized manners of the visitors.  This used to be so much better than dpreview or any other of the Know-nothing-forums out there.  Seeing now that one of the chief contributors to LL and the forum looses his temper over a friendly critizism that is meant to be constructive simply because he does not agree with the critic makes me really worried.  Mr Schewe, I dont think an expert of your standing needs to react so harshly.  

Anyways, I do enjoy the videos produced by Micheal very much. Since I am just a student with very low income I have only purchased one video journal so far. Quite possible I will buy the new journal when it comes out, if the discount is still on then. Here comes my suggesttion: If there was a constant discount on LL products for students I think a lot more people would buy. If you think internationally there are a lot of students interested in photography  who bought  Lightroom as a student version for 100US$ (as I did) and took free classes at uni to learn the program. To be honest these classes are many times rubbish so one would wish to have a good video tuorial.  But paying 40US$ for a tutorial is quite a lot if you consider that the program's price was only 100Us$. Addiditionally at least for me it would take a one or two months of saving to afford  a tutorial.  ( I realize that in absolut terms 40 US$ is not much and surely not too much for the quality, but it is unfortunately too much for many students.)

You also have to consider that at the same price of 40US$ one can buy good tutorials in German, French, Italian etc, which are much more convinient for the speakers of those languages even when they are less informative then the LL videos.  I think that if the price of LL videos was lower many more international buyers would accept the inconvienience of viewing their tutorial in English. ( A lot of non-native speakers  have little problems reading English in their own time, so they visit your website.  But understanding  spoken English is a whole different matter for a non native without constant practice)

BTW, may I  propose that you add subtitles for non-natives to you videos? I know many people who would benefit greatly from that. For example all my friends, although their English is quite good, always switch on the (English) subtitles when they watch an English movie.
Logged
Josh-H
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1910



WWW
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2009, 02:50:45 AM »
ReplyReply

Here is my take...

I own everything Michael has produced - both in the way of video journals and in the way of tutorials. One of Michaels prints also hangs in my home gallery (Blue Lace Berg - and I love it).

I buy his tutorials and video journals for several reasons. Firstly, they are extremely informative, and I have learnt a lot from them (I am not embarrassed to say). Even the most seasoned Lightroom or Photoshop user will learn something from them (I usse both Lightroom and Photoshop daily and still learnt a lot), Secondly, they are wonderful entertainment and I thoroughly enjoy the banter, photographic talk and of course shirt wars! I enjoy the exotic locations and of course the photographic equipment reviews, techniques and general photo chit chat (I actually really enjoy the conclusions and choice of vino/single malt/beer to boot :-) )

Do I wish there was more in the way of content?

Of course! But then again.. I also understand how much work it is to produce this content and the age old motto of 'always leave them wanting more'.

Do I care abou the price?

Nup.. To be honest I would purchase them at 4 times the price. But thats just me.. I see value in them and can afford to pay the price of entry. That is not the point. The price is fair (in fact cheap) and reasonable.

The point is - as I understand, that Michael is requesting current readers and regulars who have not purchased anything to please do so to help contribute to the costs of running the site. Fair enough in my book as there are clearly server and bandwidth costs involved in the site. Given the amount of free content on the site (and lets face it there is a humungous amount) I think its an entirely legitimate request. It would be a very sad day for me if Lula were ever to be closed down because its upkeep costs could not be met.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 03:05:25 AM by Josh-H » Logged

stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2808


« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2009, 03:29:30 AM »
ReplyReply

QUOTE (slobodan56 @ Nov 26 2009, 01:07 AM) *
No... but it is actually in your hands already. I did buy your book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3". You see, I can differentiate between lousy personality types and their technical expertise and give credit (and money) when credit is due.

A very pertinent point. I too bought the book and found it very good. Better than - imo - Rob Sheppards book which is btw worthy of buying. But I wonder how many have been put off buying the book and other books by him? He is of course entitled to his opinion but as to marketing his products a publishers nightmare?
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad