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Author Topic: Re: "A Call For Support"  (Read 9096 times)
pegelli
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2009, 03:39:06 AM »
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Strange thread.

On the one hand isn't it blatently obvious that Michael's request isn't pointed at people who find nothing new in his shop because they already have purchased all items of their interest there.

On the other hand I'm also surprized why this has to pointed out so harsh and uncivilized to the OP.  
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pieter, aka pegelli
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2009, 04:11:02 AM »
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Quote from: pegelli
Strange thread.

On the one hand isn't it blatently obvious that Michael's request isn't pointed at people who find nothing new in his shop because they already have purchased all items of their interest there.

On the other hand I'm also surprized why this has to pointed out so harsh and uncivilized to the OP.  




I think it is quite easy to understand, really.

a. I believe that the OP was not intending an attack.
b. I believe that Michael didn't see it as an attack either.
c. I believe that personality glitches in the resident Rottweiler were simply, and unavoidably, switched on; better ask Pavlov.
d. I believe that there is a band of regulars here that is simply unable to accept that views different to its own can be legitimate.
e. I believe I Believe was one of Frankie Laine's greatest hits.

Lighten up, folks, it ain't the end of anybody's world.

Rob C
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2009, 05:10:25 AM »
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When I first started reading the item at the top of 'What's new", I had a dreadful feeling that Michael was announcing the imminent demise of LL unless financial assistance was forthcoming.  Even as my eyes ran over the first few lines I was mentally reaching for my credit card to make a donation, until I reached the end of the section and saw that it was in fact a request for site visitors to buy some of the excellent tutorials.

I have bought a number of tutorials from the site, and will probably buy the Asset Management tutorial in the New Year, when I might have time to watch it.

The OP was merely commenting on the dearth of new items to buy that would interest him, as one of the seemingly tiny proportion of site visitors who does actually buy from, and therefore support, the site.

It is hard to believe that some people would attack in such a strong way another forum member who is obviously a fan and supporter of the site.  Michael has now clarified that his item was really a plea to the silent majority who never financially support the site and asks us all to calm down.  Is Schewe really doing the site any favours by reacting in such a strong way?  He is obviously well-respected for his technical skill and knowledge, but does not come across very well in posts like this.  Are site and forum visitors more likely to buy tutorials featuring Schewe now?  If 10% of site visitors spent half of what Slobodan has on tutorials and books by Schewe, I am sure the site's finances would be in a very healthy state.

Michael, this is a great site, and I for one will continue to support it and still would even if it became a subscription site, as I now do to Sean Reid's site.    

Schewe, I try hard to like you, but you really do not need to leap into the attack every time you perceive the slightest critique to LL or Michael. But then surely a man who rides a BMW R can't be all bad?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 10:34:19 AM by Jim Pascoe » Logged
caribsurf
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2009, 05:30:42 AM »
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As a very recent member of The Luminous Landscape, I am surprised at how quickly the tone and quality of debate slips into the gutter. Mr Reichmann's request for support seems totally in order and slobodan56's response to be reasonably measured and innocuous, but I have not been on this site long enough to know if Schewe and slobodan56 have ongoing scores to settle. As a retired Sales Manager, one of the things that you train salespeople to do is how to handle objections. When potential Customers present you with objections, the classic response is to provide an analysis of your perception of why they do not see your Product or Service as providing a solution to his or her situation and ASKING THEM IF YOUR PERCEPTION IS CORRECT. The next part of the process is to provide Proof. If you can't do this, then any sale is unlikely and it is better to acknowledge that you cannot help with his or her problem this time but may well be able to do so with a different problem on another occasion. Simply being rude and attacking them will never ever be productive. So far, the few threads that I have joined in with have been very light on facts and many of the Contributors just make unjustified statements that plainly cannot be accurate E.G. "You can't demonstrate it with web jpegs, and not much point in trying." (Why do all Camera Equipment manufacturers have Image Sites if that were the case?)  and the loose and interchangeable use of the description "Professional" and "Amateur" (the inference being that if an individual has been shootings images for twenty years they are "Professional" VS someone with four of five years experience being an "Amateur"). I have not bought anything yet, but I am considering doing so. Certain individuals poor attitude and getting down in the gutter does not actually encourage anyone to take the software training seriously when the author blows his or her top. This is how I see things as newcomer. Sticking to indisputable facts and being levelled headed might be a better approach for all of us.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 05:33:11 AM by caribsurf » Logged
mike.online
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2009, 05:58:00 AM »
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Hi Michael,

I thought I would throw my $0.02 into the well.

A friend of mine showed me the "from camera to print" video and while I had read a few articles before, that was really what hooked me onto this site. Since then I've bought your LR2 video and enjoyed it thoroughly.

As for the LLVJ's I've only bought one so far, Antarctica. I had read all of the written content from that trip, and that's what pushed me into buying the VJ (I wouldn't have otherwise) and also what encouraged me to drive to your gallery from Kingston (where I was a student) just to see the prints first hand.

As for the older VJs, I'm sure that they are excellent, but for me at least, its the connection from the other content (written and photographic) that pulls me in to know more. I suppose that's the unfortunate (for me) reality which keeps me from buying older issues. Maybe you could link the articles that you wrote from the previous VJ so that I could 'get into' them more and be compelled to buy the corresponding VJ?

Mind you, my frugality might be because I was a student (little income) when I joined the site and am now an intern in Ethiopia (also little income).

I'm guessing that the next VJ will have something to do with the Leica's and Death Valley (PODAS). Those intrigue me, and I'm likely to buy the VJ while I'm back in Canada (for the holidays). The free site content drives me to the purchases. Maybe this is all pretty obvious stuff, but I'm sure its nice to hear from customers just the same.

Anyways I also just wanted to say that in the past few months there has been a ton of content (reviews and whatnot) posted on your site which I have read and enjoyed the great majority. Keep up the great work!

- Micheal
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 07:31:21 AM by mike.online » Logged

PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2009, 06:25:45 AM »
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Quote from: caribsurf
I have not bought anything yet, but I am considering doing so. Certain individuals poor attitude and getting down in the gutter does not actually encourage anyone to take the software training seriously when the author blows his or her top. This is how I see things as newcomer. Sticking to indisputable facts and being levelled headed might be a better approach for all of us.

The training videos I have purchased are really worth their price, both in form and content. Highly recommended.  When you buy a book, you judge it on its content and don't know or care if the author never buys a drink for friends, beats his wife or worse ;-) If everyone stuck to facts and kept his cool, forums would be dull. And I sheepishly confess that watching the Schewe vs World rounds can be entertaining at times.
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BlasR
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2009, 07:08:12 AM »
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Quote from: slobodan56
Oh, you got me... you really uncovered my masochistic tendencies to expose myself to the usual flagellation and bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief and the faithfuls.


Don't get mad, just get more DVD for your friends/family they are great & nice info.  if you don't have dvd 1 -18 I will recommend you to get it.

Happy thanksgiving my friend.  life is beautiful enjoy it
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budjames
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2009, 07:15:08 AM »
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I'm a charter subscriber to LLDVJ, have purchased every tutorial produced by Michael and friends, and I visit the web site probably at least once a day.

I think that Michael, Chris and others have done an excellent job of educating us all and providing a forum to meet others and share experiences online. For all of the above, thank you!

So, I ditto Mike's request to purchase the tutorials or whatever to help support the cause. I'm sure that there a thousands of individuals that enjoy the site, but have not purchased all of the available tutorials. If each one stepped up and purchased just one item, that would make a significant contribution to the support the web site.

I'm also a member of the National Association of Photoshop Professionals for which I pay $99/yr to belong. I am not a professional, but just a serious amateur photographer. Yet, I find my membership to NAPP a worthy investment. Scott Kelby and associates have done an incredible job of commericializing Photoshop and Lightroom education. I hope he makes a lot of money doing it too because I want him to long term success into the future providing excellent resources for folks like me.

There are several other sites, FredMiranda.com, for example, that charge subscriptions to access portions of the web site. I understand that there is significant cost to maintaining a web site and forum for all of the world to enjoy, therefore, I have no problem if Michael starts to charge to access his web site as it's that good!

Cheers.
Bud James
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 07:16:25 AM by budjames » Logged

Bud James
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2009, 10:25:53 AM »
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Hi,

I'd just add that they are also entertaining, much more than anything on TV or made in Hollywood. Just my 2 cents, soon worth a penny ;-)

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Josh-H
Here is my take...

I own everything Michael has produced - both in the way of video journals and in the way of tutorials. One of Michaels prints also hangs in my home gallery (Blue Lace Berg - and I love it).

I buy his tutorials and video journals for several reasons. Firstly, they are extremely informative, and I have learnt a lot from them (I am not embarrassed to say). Even the most seasoned Lightroom or Photoshop user will learn something from them (I usse both Lightroom and Photoshop daily and still learnt a lot), Secondly, they are wonderful entertainment and I thoroughly enjoy the banter, photographic talk and of course shirt wars! I enjoy the exotic locations and of course the photographic equipment reviews, techniques and general photo chit chat (I actually really enjoy the conclusions and choice of vino/single malt/beer to boot :-) )

Do I wish there was more in the way of content?

Of course! But then again.. I also understand how much work it is to produce this content and the age old motto of 'always leave them wanting more'.

Do I care abou the price?

Nup.. To be honest I would purchase them at 4 times the price. But thats just me.. I see value in them and can afford to pay the price of entry. That is not the point. The price is fair (in fact cheap) and reasonable.

The point is - as I understand, that Michael is requesting current readers and regulars who have not purchased anything to please do so to help contribute to the costs of running the site. Fair enough in my book as there are clearly server and bandwidth costs involved in the site. Given the amount of free content on the site (and lets face it there is a humungous amount) I think its an entirely legitimate request. It would be a very sad day for me if Lula were ever to be closed down because its upkeep costs could not be met.
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David Mantripp
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2009, 01:00:35 PM »
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I used to have LL on speed dial. I learnt a lot from the forums. The workshop I participated in was a turning point on several levels. And I bought my first DVD player just to watch LLVJ vol 1.  And then I bought the whole set.   And Lightroom tutorials too, even though I've exercised my democratic right to use the Competitor's Product, AND I don't think that video tutorials in general are anywhere near as useful as books, albeit these are most certainly entertaining.

And I'd subscribe too, if the price was reasonable, although I wouldn't like to see a subscription-only site.

But I really, really went off the LL some time back, because of, to borrow Rob C's words, the Rottweiller effect. It was just getting too much. I'm sort of getting back into it these days.

I'm pretty sure that if anybody other than The Rottweiller behaved in this way, he/she would be politely asked to leave. Which leads me to believe that actually, like many Rottweillers, his bark is considerably worse than his bite, and maybe we're just losing a lot in translation to text ... and let's face it, his fairly regular explosions are actually pretty damn funny.  And, if you're feeling really evil and just a bit bored, well, baiting the Rottweiller can be entertaining.

But in this particular case I agree with Slobodan and I think he deserves an apology.

Maybe a really good revenue stream would be a PayPal-powered swear box.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 01:01:50 PM by drm » Logged

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Schewe
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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2009, 03:03:04 PM »
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Quote from: Jim Pascoe
But then surely a man who rides a BMW R can't be all bad?


It's a BMW R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 03:12:15 PM by Schewe » Logged
Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2009, 03:12:38 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
It's an R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)

Ah, mine is the straight R1150 GS.  Nice bikes, especially when loaded up with some good cameras!
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Rob C
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2009, 03:28:22 PM »
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I'm sure that four wheels would be nicer, but then anything is better than a horse.

Rob C
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budjames
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« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2009, 05:06:33 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
It's a BMW R1200 GS Adventure....that's what I ride...

:~)

I ride a 1983 BMW R100RS (70k miles including PA to CA and back, Canada and a bunch of other great rides and I'm the original owner) and a 1989 BMW K100RS (I'm also the original owner).

Now they mostly sit in the garage under covers. I do ride them both throughout the year but no more overnight trips.

Cheers.
Bud
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Bud James
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« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2009, 10:55:29 PM »
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Quote from: drm
But in this particular case I agree with Slobodan and I think he deserves an apology.


Ya know...reading through all the criticisms posted (edited for brevity);

"I do not like bullies"
"bullying by the Cerberus-in-Chief" )I actually liked this one)
"flamed" customer"
"generated so much vituperation" [ok, have to admit I had to look that one up]
"I am appalled"
"a publishers nightmare"
"c. I believe that personality glitches in the resident Rottweiler were simply, and unavoidably, switched on; better ask Pavlov."
"slips into the gutter"

I thought wow, maybe I screwed the pooch and posted some really "Mean&Nasty™" response to the OP and crossed the lines of even my somewhat limited sense of civility...

So I went back and re-read what I wrote in post one and two to the OP....

Gotta tell ya, I really don't see where I was even rude to the OP let along falling into the true "Cerberus-in-Chief" category ...read what I wrote and parse the language carefully–I never said a mean thing to the guy...

I said: "If true, then I suggest you are speaking from ignorance as opposed to knowledge...if you think you know as much about Lightroom 2 or Camera Raw 4 as I do (and by not getting the vids, that's the presumption) then I suggest you may be wrong..."

Hummm...sorry if that sounds arrogant but I am assuming I know just a bit more about Lightroom 2 and Camera Raw CS4 than the OP and that he might be able to learn a thing or two from me...

Is that mean and nasty? Heck, I even said "I suggest he was wrong" instead of saying he was full of crap...

Yes, I presumed he hadn't seen either of the vids...sorry, that's the way he was positioning the critique. (Actually, I have a sneaking suspicion the OP hasn't upgraded to Photoshop CS4 and therefore isn't interested in any tutorials about it–so, he'll just have to wait till Adobe releases CS5 (which Michael and I are planning for).

So maybe it was my final comment...the "love me in the morning" comment...would it help if I added the smilie (did you or he honestly expect "love")

:~) (see, I added the friggin' smilie, ok?)

You'll note that I made the assumption that he could buy the products in question and if he DID'T find any value, then he could get a full refund (hey, it's a no risk deal–if LuLa won't give him a refund if he doesn't like the goods, I'll cut him a personal check for the difference).

So, then maybe it was my SECOND post on the subject that sent everybody's civility meters into overload...read that post and tell me EXACTLY where I went wrong...heck, I even added the friggin' smilie after the Adobe update schedule...was it the fact that I said he was behnd the 8-ball cause what he bought was the Real World Camera Raw CS3 version, not the current shipping version...)again, an assumption that he's still on CS3–which is perhaps a factor in his assessment of the lack of "new materials" critique).

Is there anything there to apologize for? Really?

As it relates the the Luminous Landscape forum and the overall scrutiny my posts seem to elicit (relative to some of the other a$$holes on the planet), guess what folks? I've been on-line since the early 1980's first with AOL, the CompuServe then various bulletin boards, the Adobe Forums, the Digital Darkroom forum and here at LuLa. I post the way I write and I write the way I think...re-read what I write carefully (I am now a professional writer ya know I'm a co-author of 3 books) and you tell me what the true nature of my posts actually are...no, I'm not particularly shy and retiring...yes, I tend to write aggressively and colorful...no, I'm not boring, yes, I tend to get into peoples' faces...I'm from Chicago, ya wanna make something of that?

I don't take the mentality that I want something from ANYBODY, so you can pretty much forget about me treating you all like a potential "client" and being "nice" to you because I want you to buy something from me. Do, or don't based entirely on your own wishes and desires...but you seriously shouldn't be expecting any particularly behavior from me in that regard...

At this point in my career, there is nothing I can be induced to do for money...I'm retired from advertising photography largely because in order to be successful as an ad shooter, you _DO_ have to treat idiots and a$$holes like they matter. And...they simply don't matter to me anymore...

If you all think I'm a big Mean&Nasty™, you have the option to set the forums to ignore me as a user...I've taken the liberty to do that to some of the other forums members who piss me off more than they post useful content...do that and you can completely avoid seeing my Mean&Nasty™ words to other people (think of it as a "Schewe" censor button).

You can also petition Michael to have me banned from the forums...but if you actually bother to carefully parse what I write, I doubt you'll be able to make a compelling case for banning, I suspect that ain't gonna happen...

So, you can act all offended and try to use the "way I treat customers" as some lame method of behavior modification...but that ain't gonna happen...I find some of the regular members intellectually challenging and not prone to false offense...to the rest of the people who seem hellbent on trying to bring about some sort of sanctimonious pressure to try to get me to "play well with others", sorry, just ain't gonna happen (it's way too much fun being a bad boy).

On a more sober note, I do indeed hope that everybody here in the LuLa flora & fauna have a wonderful Thanksgiving (at least here in the US) because I do have a great sense of gratitude that I find myself in the position I find myself in and can afford to "play" more often than "work".

(and for those who do find me "mildly entertaining"...I'll try to elevate my entertaining content in the future...

P.S. Note, since I'm actually in between books (the OP has so nicely pointed of that LR 3 and Photoshop CS5 won't be too far off) I'm free to spend my time on the forums trading jabs with you all...won't be long till I'll be completely overwhelmed by deadlines and find no time to play...so, make hay while the sun shines!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 11:05:13 PM by Schewe » Logged
jeremyrh
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2009, 01:30:03 AM »
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Well, that was a "tale ... full of sound and fury"  - I'm sure such a literary giant can supply the rest of the quotation ...

As you say, we can hope you get over your silly attention-seeking behaviour, but it's not likely - to use your own words: "sorry, just ain't gonna happen (it's way too much fun being a bad boy)"; you enjoy being offensive and no-one can do anything about it. That is more or less a definition of a bully. If that is how you want to be, regardless of the impact on your own credibility, or on that of the places you hang out, it's your choice - you're a big boy now.
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budjames
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2009, 03:30:12 AM »
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So what does this have to do with "Call for support"?
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Bud James
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jeremyrh
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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2009, 03:43:10 AM »
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Quote from: budjames
So what does this have to do with "Call for support"?
Umm ... nothing, unfortunately. It started out with someone suggesting how Michael could tempt people to buy videos, etc., and progressed to Schewe talking about his favourite subject (guess what), and how he was not going to treat people nice, and if they don't buy his videos he doesn't care as he doesn't need the money. Unfortunately I acquiesced in his silly agenda by responding, for which: apologies.
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michael
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2009, 04:19:05 AM »
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OK folks, time to move on.

Michael
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