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Author Topic: Camera Wars  (Read 14324 times)
gwhitf
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 01:11:06 PM »
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Quote from: lisa_r
You guys wanting things to look organic and reminiscing about flare should stop buying new lenses ;-)

You might be right, but Flared Digital is still a very far cry from Flared Film. Even with Noise/Grain added. Sad, but true. Still can't really figure out why. Yes, the word organic comes to mind.
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lisa_r
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2009, 01:15:29 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
You might be right, but Flared Digital is still a very far cry from Flared Film. Even with Noise/Grain added. Sad, but true. Still can't really figure out why. Yes, the word organic comes to mind.

Really? I look at my flared film and it is not better or more organic-looking than what I just posted, other than the film grain of course.

A couple more cheap and old Canon lenses flaring:
[attachment=18609:IMG_0242.jpg]
[attachment=18610:flare.jpg]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 01:28:53 PM by lisa_r » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2009, 05:29:23 PM »
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Quote from: lisa_r
Really? I look at my flared film and it is not better or more organic-looking than what I just posted, other than the film grain of course.

A couple more cheap and old Canon lenses flaring:
[attachment=18609:IMG_0242.jpg]
[attachment=18610:flare.jpg]

Here's some flare with the Nikon 20 2.8D, Kodak 400UC.  I made the same frames with the 1ds2 and 5D with the 20mm Canon, and did not like what I saw:  Just large areas blown out.  Sorry, I didn't keep the digital files.
[attachment=18616:Broadway...all4.sml.jpg]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 05:34:05 PM by TMARK » Logged
cyberean
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« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2009, 05:40:01 PM »
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so, is anyone keeping score?
who's winning ... these camera wars??    
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bcooter
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« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2009, 07:24:18 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
I made the same frames with the 1ds2 and 5D with the 20mm Canon, and did not like what I saw:  Just large areas blown out.


I think Peggy Sirota does some of the best natural lensflare in the biz.

http://www.peggysirota.com/

go to beauty and lifestyle sections and some of the later images are film.

Now my trick for lensflare, (previously with film) now with digital is,

(all pixel peepers please disregard this)

1.  Take a Canon 50 1.4, you know that crappy plastic lens that womps.

2.  Buy a uv filter.

3.  Go to Will Rogers Beach in Malibu.

4.  Mount camera on a tripod (the only time I use a tripod) and point towards the ocean.  Just far enough away to NOT feel the ocean spray.

5.  Leave someone to guard the camera and go for a walk.

6. Come back one hour later and shoot a test, into the sun, and away from it.

7.  Continue step s 4 and 5 until you get the desired effect.

8.  Mount UV filter on lens and NEVER let an assistant clean the front element, only clean the UV filter.

9.  Keep the lens forever and the look is sharp but smooth will evenly flare into sun.  

10.  With cross light on the sun behind you will make a nice soft look with detail.


12.  When shooting for flare set the Canon for 1/2 stop bracketing and fire three frames where you would normally shoot just one frame.  Even if the subject is moving quickly, you can fire fast enough so the images can be merged with a little work so you can hold detail in the areas you like, have flare in the areas you don't want detail.

Note.

If you want multiple looks do this sea spray effect with a series of UV filters, though you will find it very hard to keep them intact and perfect because somebody eventually is going to stick their thumb on it.

BC
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yyapp
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« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2009, 07:25:35 PM »
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For me

Nikon FM2 Ti - The little camera that keeps on shooting no matter the conditions
Hasselblad 203 FE - Amazing what you can you get out of a center weighted metering system

My new loves

Linhof Technorama 617
Mamiya AFD with Phase One 45+ - Love the back, hate the camera


http://www.rafaelhernandezphotography.com
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gwhitf
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« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2009, 07:33:14 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
8.  Mount UV filter on lens and NEVER let an assistant clean the front element, only clean the UV filter.

9.  Keep the lens forever and the look is sharp but smooth will evenly flare into sun.

Brothers from a different mother.

I used to do the same thing: I'd make these weird filters with broken closeup filters, and vaseline, and then when I got them right, I'd buy a new Skylight filter and screw it into the good (bad) filter, therefore protecting it for life. Then you just clean the outside of the new skylight filter if it got horrible. Then, I'd take little slivers of Scotch Tape and wrap them around the filter, so that no one could ever unscrew them (and clean the the insides).

In the past two weeks, I have gone back to making these filters and using them on the 5d2. I like the fact that I'm committing to the weirdness into the RAW, just like the old days with film. My goal in life is to, one day, never again utter that dreaded sentence, "We'll do it in Post".

However, in your example above, I want to throw a 15 yard flag; i just know that you did a Curves adjustment layer to pull detail into that foam. I just know it. I smell Exposure2. There's just way too much fill on that guys face; it's too open.

But in general, I love the Custom SeaSpray filter approach that you've got going.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 07:36:40 PM by gwhitf » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2009, 07:47:08 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
However, in your example above, I want to throw a 15 yard flag; i just know that you did a Curves adjustment layer to pull detail into that foam. I just know it. I smell Exposure2. There's just way too much fill on that guys face; it's too open.


Your right I cheated, I did open up some of the shadows, though not by much and yes I did use Exposure 1 (now I use Exposure 2) to muck with the color, but if I can find the original image I'll post it cause it's not that much different.  Actually the tone is within a few percent, I did more color work than anything.

But back to the "never again in Post".  Man I agree with that and I'll tell you something I shot one job this year (yes hold your breath) jpeg only.  JPEGS were my raws, Jpegs were my masters and I got the camera and filters set where I wanted and shot high quality jpegs on the Canons and Nikons.  Mostly because I was doing a video effect and I need fast multiple frames, but also because I wanted to see if I could actually use the jpegs for print reproduction and yes it worked.

In fact I find the Jpegs out of the Canon as close as the raws in some ways better because if I start out with that lump in my throat thinking I better get this right on set, (remember transparency film) I got a much more refined and cleaner look.

I know, I know just the word jpeg is going to send some people here into a Catatonia, but it worked or better put I like it, or even better put, I got paid.

Still at the end of the day, film flares a lot prettier than digital.  

BC
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bcooter
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« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2009, 08:02:03 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Brothers from a different mother.

When I started out I shared space with a photographer that was 100% seat of the pants.

He had these great tricks for effects, one was called the thumb in the lens effect.  Anything past 100mm he's just shoot almost wide open and stick his thumb or finger in front of the lens.  Warmed everything up, caused some things to go soft and it was just beatuiful.  Made great color.

In the darkroom with black and white he had the smoke a 100mm Cigrarette effect.

He's process by using a Tartington Cigarette, he would set in on it's end and when the ashes got to a certain length, he'd agitate.  When the cigarette got to about 3/4"s of an inch from the filter he dump the developer and wash, then fix.

When he printed he would get 1/2 way into exposing a print, light a cigaette with one of those big kitchen matches and partially solarize part of the print.  It was bloody beautiful.

Try to find this stuff on a mtf chart, pixel depth comparision thread or who makes the most detailed digital back image section.

BC
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TMARK
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« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2009, 10:03:14 PM »
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Thanks for the sea spray tip!  I have some frames somewhere from the Canon 24-70 with a cheap and dirty Hoya Skylight filter on it.  No hood on that pig = lots of veiling flare, on film.

I do like Peggy Sirota lots.  She got me onto the Briese.




Quote from: bcooter
I think Peggy Sirota does some of the best natural lensflare in the biz.

http://www.peggysirota.com/

go to beauty and lifestyle sections and some of the later images are film.

Now my trick for lensflare, (previously with film) now with digital is,

(all pixel peepers please disregard this)

1.  Take a Canon 50 1.4, you know that crappy plastic lens that womps.

2.  Buy a uv filter.

3.  Go to Will Rogers Beach in Malibu.

4.  Mount camera on a tripod (the only time I use a tripod) and point towards the ocean.  Just far enough away to NOT feel the ocean spray.

5.  Leave someone to guard the camera and go for a walk.

6. Come back one hour later and shoot a test, into the sun, and away from it.

7.  Continue step s 4 and 5 until you get the desired effect.

8.  Mount UV filter on lens and NEVER let an assistant clean the front element, only clean the UV filter.

9.  Keep the lens forever and the look is sharp but smooth will evenly flare into sun.  

10.  With cross light on the sun behind you will make a nice soft look with detail.


12.  When shooting for flare set the Canon for 1/2 stop bracketing and fire three frames where you would normally shoot just one frame.  Even if the subject is moving quickly, you can fire fast enough so the images can be merged with a little work so you can hold detail in the areas you like, have flare in the areas you don't want detail.

Note.

If you want multiple looks do this sea spray effect with a series of UV filters, though you will find it very hard to keep them intact and perfect because somebody eventually is going to stick their thumb on it.

BC
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:05:09 PM by TMARK » Logged
Jack Flesher
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« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2009, 10:42:39 PM »
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35mm film cameras include my first, a Minolta SRT 101, then to Nikon FE, F3HP, 8008, F4, F5, then to Canon 1VHS.  Liked them all for what they were.  

Then there was an affair with the Leica M4, 6's and 7's -- I love the Leica M, but again for what it is.  

In MF I owned Hassy 500, Mamiya Press, RZ, 645 Pro, Pentax 645.  Of those, my best images came from the Mamiyas, most from the RZ.

Then I wanted movements and started with LF.  First was a Technikardan, then looking for lighter, a Phillips, then an Arca F-Metric (with micro Orbix), an Ebony 45SU, and a Chamonix.  I won't bore you with my list of studio or 8x10 cameras.  In the end, my favorite 4x5s were the F-Metric and Ebony 45SU, but I made some of my best images ever with the TK.

The camera that convinced me digital was real, at least for 35mm, was the original 1D.  As soon as I got that, I basically sold all my 35mm film cameras -- even the Leicas.  Then the 1Ds was a revelation -- good enough it convinced me to sell my MF film cameras, though I still shot my 4x5's or 8x10's for serious landscape work. Then the P45+ convinced me I no longer needed 4x5 film, so I sold my LF cams.  

Today I am down to three basic kits: Phase P65+ -- love the Mamiya lenses, love the files from that back.  For faster action, I have a basic 1Ds3 kit with a few lenses.  And for my P&S camera, I have a GF1 and couple of lenses.

My absolute favorite and most fun camera to use of all time, probably a tie between the Arca F-Metric and the Ebony 45SU.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:11:25 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

gwhitf
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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2009, 08:49:53 AM »
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Quote from: yyapp
Hasselblad 203 FE - Amazing what you can you get out of a center weighted metering system

I think I forgot to mention that camera. After the 680, this to me is the next best camera ever made. I've owned four of them, plus several 202FA's. They're both amazing cameras. Yes, about the meter, I would literally put them on "A", and just set the fstop, and shoot away. I'd get the contact sheets back, and would marvel that every frame was within a half stop or so. I have no idea what kind of light meter Hasselblad put in that camera, but it was bulletproof. The ease of just slapping it on Automatic, and actually trusting it, made it an incredible camera. Imagine the run on those bodies if someone/anyone could actually bring to market a real square 6x6 digital back for it, full frame. They'd shoot back up to their original sales price of about seven grand apiece, which, in those days, seemed astronomical, but after using it, you realized it was worth every penny, and then some.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2009, 02:08:31 PM »
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Quote from: lisa_r
The older Canons are pretty good at flareing. (This is the older Canon 50mm 1.8 metal mount. It flares as much as you could possibly want when pointed into the sun.)

What is the oldest/earliest Canon 50 or 85 that will still mount on a 5D2 or 1ds3? (Or maybe even an offbrand without coating?) Thanks.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2009, 03:27:36 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
What is the oldest/earliest Canon 50 or 85 that will still mount on a 5D2 or 1ds3? (Or maybe even an offbrand without coating?) Thanks.

I was thinking about this as well, and then I thought there's probably a way the remove the coatings from a lens. I might just buy one of those dirt cheap 50's and scrub the coating off of it just to see what happens.

I agree on the hassy 203fe, that cam with the 110 glued to it, a 6x6 inch chip, 5x5 inch lcd, with a porta 160nc internal processor and pixel binning so I could shoot about 5000 6mp pics to a card.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2009, 04:01:55 PM »
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For me it all started with the Leica IIIc my father lent me for a beginning photography class at the University of New Mexico. The rest is my life. I was an economics major and by my junior year had switched to art/photography. The leica was stolen. It produced the best 35mm b&w I have ever made. Then came the following. I never felt the need to have the best cameras with all the bells and whistles. I was always happy with something that just did the job well and would take a beating. Good lenses are more important than camera bodies (not so true with digital). I made my living for 31 years beginning with the Tachihara:

Pentax Spotmatic
Mamiya 330 twin lens (began to love the square format)
6x9 view camera (I can't remember the name)
Tachihara 4x5 (2x) (started shooting architecture with this camera in 1978. I did my first two books with this)
Zone VI (a great workhorse)
Hassleblad 500c (still have)
Calumet Widefield (highly modified-used for architecture-still have but don't use)
Phillips 4x5 (still have and use)
Canon 5D (my first digital-still have for a backup camera)
Canon 5DII


Quote from: CBarrett
Well, we all seem to agree that different formats and brands all have their negative and positive aspects and as much as I really enjoy working with view cameras, I love pretty much all imaging devices.  I'm a big gear junkie, I admit it.  I think most photographers are...

I've had special relationships with many cameras through the years... here are a few:
  • Konica T4  My Sister gave me this when I was 18... begin the obsession.
  • Hasselblad 500 CM  Really something magical about shooting this camera... every time.  
  • Nikon F3  My tank workhorse for the majority of my educational years.
  • Leica CL  Shot all my street work with this.  I like the smaller size versus the M's.
  • Contax G2  Had two with a few lenses.  Really beautiful cameras, but never shot anything memorable with them.  Focus sucked.
  • Arca Swiss F Line 4x5  90% of my Career work was shot with this thing.
  • Arca Swiss F Metric 6x9  My first digital view camera, had to leave that at HB : (
  • Arca Swiss F Line 6x9  Bought this 15 year old from a friend when I quit HB.  Got me going.
  • Arca Swiss M Line 2 6x9  Utterly in love with this thing.
  • Nikon D3  My very first dslr... really like this camera too!
  • Phase One 645 AF  Came with my P65+....is meh...anxiously awaiting DF to swap out.  D lenses are really quite good!

    What about you guys?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 09:11:22 PM by Kirk Gittings » Logged

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk Gittings
Architecture and Landscape Photography
WWW.GITTINGSPHOTO.COM

LIGHT+SPACE+STRUCTURE (blog)
gwhitf
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« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2009, 04:47:45 PM »
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Quote from: kipling
I agree on the hassy 203fe, that cam with the 110 glued to it, a 6x6 inch chip, 5x5 inch lcd, with a porta 160nc internal processor and pixel binning so I could shoot about 5000 6mp pics to a card.

It's a waste of time to look back, but yes, that 110 f2 wide open was magic. And with those weird FE lenses, there was no shutter, so you could focus much closer than the CF lenses. Also, the FE lenses were, in general, one full stop faster, except for the 80. Plus, the awesome meter. Plus, the fact that somehow, there was virtually zero mirror slap. Plus, plus, plus. That's the story of that camera -- plus plus plus. The list was long.

All I'd want in a digital back for would be about 16MP, FF. Surely it could be done. But in the grand scheme of mass marketing, this would fall into about a .0000000001 percent of the marketplace's demands.
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JonRoemer
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« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2009, 08:54:58 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
What is the oldest/earliest Canon 50 or 85 that will still mount on a 5D2 or 1ds3? (Or maybe even an offbrand without coating?) Thanks.

I think that anything with an EF mount will have some type of coating on it.

I remember reading that Spielberg's DP used some vintage lenses with no coatings but also had Panavision make him lenses with no coatings to get the right kind of flare for Saving Private Ryan.  In that vein, I've also read that you can use things like toothpaste take the coating off a lens.  It has enough grit to it to get the coating off but not do too much more damage.  Don't know anyone who's tried it.

--
Site | Blog

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Gigi
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« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2009, 09:36:17 PM »
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Well another list:

Started with Nikon FTN, then Canon F1
gave it all up for Leica M2
many years later Hassy 500,
then changed to
Rollei 6003
Mamiya 6
Technikardan 45
Ebony 45RW
Rollei GX
Canon 20D
Leica M8
Rollei 6008 db20

Most fun: Rollei 6003.
Most romance: Leica M2
Most practical: gave that up long ago - altho the M8 is pretty solid. The Canon is bulletproof, but not much fun.
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Geoff
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« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2009, 11:56:03 PM »
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fuji 680....best camera, best lenses....i also used to shoot it handheld with fuji NPH pushed 2 stops....beautiful grain and still crisp...
fuji 690...just amazing and so much fun....i used it for everything...from studio to p&s....shot a couple of rolls with it once with the lenscap on....the girl thought i was a complete idiot....
fuji 645 folder....not as sharp or good but so small and fun....best travel camera ever...

rollei 6008 phase 20...great combo, amazing lenses...

i have to bring up the dsII here because in many ways i think it wanted to be the camera the dsIII is and totally wasn't even close....and it really turned me off DSLR and cost me a lot of money and frustration....so that is a big thumbs down for the dsII.....

dsIII great, great, great.....5DII even better...i prefer the files....

i shoot mostly with older leica lenses, i have focus confirmation adapters...they really work....no it is not AF but i shoot the 5DII these days like a MF camera....angle finder...i just prefer looking down...and older manual lenses....a little slower shooting but great files....

the leica lenses make the highlight transitions look as film like as it gets...just don't get the newer (asph) ones.....if you want to get funky get really old ones....


anyone interested.....kevin's cameras sells a TON of really old, uncoated lenses...a lot for canon....everything from old movie lenses to leica, canon,....lenses from the 40's to newer ones...

i am really looking forward to what canon will show next year....i am dreaming of a magnified finder....the best thing about it...i am in no rush at all...every time i open up the files from a shoot i am blown away by the look, feel and ability to cover up problems and mistakes.....
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K.C.
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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2009, 04:17:13 AM »
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Old Canon FD got me started.

Moved to Nikon and then sold them all that for a 500 CM and 3 lenses. Still own them.

Needed 35 again so went with Leica R, outstanding lenses. Wish I still owned them.

Horseman 4X5, then Sinar F and P.

Arca Swiss 6X9 F is one of most wonderful cameras I've ever used. Taking it to the grave with me.

Still shooting the 1DS. Not selling that one either. Love the look.

Using 5DII and 7D for daily needs. Love the new 17 TS-E.

Just bought the SONY A850 and Zeiss 24-70. Sweet camera and outstanding lens.

I take a 4X5 pinhole and an old Baby Rollei twin out for fun on the weekends.
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