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Author Topic: Leica S2  (Read 22802 times)
woof75
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« on: November 30, 2009, 08:55:14 AM »
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"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
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carstenw
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 09:57:40 AM »
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Quote from: woof75
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...

You left out a further part of the comment. That paragraph was wildly confused. I am not sure what the resulting FPS was, I got the impression that 15 shots were fired per minute.

"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears. This means that just 15 frames can be shot continuously in 60 second when tethered, and it takes a further 43 seconds to fully resolve all 15 frames."

Anyway, it isn't an oversight until the camera is shipped  Right now the images are 70MB. Perhaps they will be half that upon shipping, doubling the firing rate. We'll have to wait to see. It does sound quite suboptimal to put it lightly.
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woof75
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 10:56:53 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
You left out a further part of the comment. That paragraph was wildly confused. I am not sure what the resulting FPS was, I got the impression that 15 shots were fired per minute.

"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears. This means that just 15 frames can be shot continuously in 60 second when tethered, and it takes a further 43 seconds to fully resolve all 15 frames."

Anyway, it isn't an oversight until the camera is shipped  Right now the images are 70MB. Perhaps they will be half that upon shipping, doubling the firing rate. We'll have to wait to see. It does sound quite suboptimal to put it lightly.

It's just the most bizzare design imaginable, every pro I know who shoots MF shoot tethered, it's just how it's done nowadays. Fingers crossed things will get better. I'm not sure Leica will even survive this massive blunder. Save's me some money I guess, I half had my eye on the S2.
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RichA@FotoCare
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 11:39:40 AM »
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Quote from: woof75
It's just the most bizzare design imaginable, every pro I know who shoots MF shoot tethered, it's just how it's done nowadays. Fingers crossed things will get better. I'm not sure Leica will even survive this massive blunder. Save's me some money I guess, I half had my eye on the S2.


Hi,
We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2.  We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed.  Hardware & Software are still in development.  Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better.  Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation.  Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.

Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care Digital
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markowich
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 11:59:47 AM »
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Quote from: John-S
It's not just the tether transfer speed, the buffer sucks. No way around it. I even get annoyed with the 15-17 shot buffer on a Canon 5DII.

Good luck to Leica. Selling a camera with big "yeh, but" to quite a few things is lame in 2009, even worse in 2010. I bet money it will be delayed even more. Michael's very reasonable test proves that a lot of work is still yet needed.

Camera companies need to seriously do as photographers ask for in specs not just listen and pick and choose. There are plenty of $1-3K cameras with better buffers and tethering, cameras that may not even be used all that much for their buffer or better tethering. Leica needs to wake up. Buying a camera on looks and label alone went out in 2008. It's a new world.

Oh yeh, this is a 160-320 ISO camera. They should just cap it off there. 1250 ISO should never be an option. The original Canon 1Ds had better 1250. That was in 2002.

I think one very large concept that Leica doesn't demonstrate it understands is that digital cameras are computers, not just cameras. Leica was and is a camera company. If they want to be a digital camera company then churn out product better and faster, with sizable improvements to their own products but also to competitors' products.


+1
peter
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bcooter
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 12:05:55 PM »
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Quote from: RichA@FotoCare
We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit


For the full effect.

1.  Go to this link http://www.lala.com/#search/what%20was%20it%20you%20wanted  hit track #2.  




BC
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 05:04:59 PM by bcooter » Logged
mcfoto
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 12:29:10 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...
Hi
Once the nine shot buffer is full to a card:

"Once the nine frame buffer is full it takes 20 seconds to completely clear, but if you keep your finger on the shutter release you can take one additional frame every five seconds while the buffer is writing to the card."

This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.

Denis
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 12:30:47 PM by mcfoto » Logged

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gwhitf
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 12:51:52 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.
Denis

My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros. There are way more wealthy amateurs out there than pros shooting tethered in a commercial studio. (Wouldn't you just love to see the market share demographics, just out of curiosity?) I'd bet it might be as high as 10:1.

Their target market will never tether, and will never come close to hitting the buffer. They'll shoot low-volume landscapes, or whatever, and probably be incredibly happy with the camera. I am dead serious.

I'm betting that, if we could ever get our paws on those top-secret demographic break-out sheets, we'd find that professional photographers that are owning and using MF gear, and tethering, are but a tiny blip on anybody's radar. My bet is, most pros that are tethering with paying jobs are renting the whole rig either from the studio, or from a Tech. They shoot the job, hand the camera to the Tech, and wave goodbye.

This S2 is a camera to go into an Eddie Bauer Expedition, or a Range Rover. Not a Grip Truck.

Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 01:35:57 PM by gwhitf » Logged
mcfoto
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 04:13:52 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"

Hi
DOA!
LOL
Denis
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 04:21:32 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
Once the nine shot buffer is full to a card:

"Once the nine frame buffer is full it takes 20 seconds to completely clear, but if you keep your finger on the shutter release you can take one additional frame every five seconds while the buffer is writing to the card."

This performance by the S2 for both tethered & card is not at Pro level.

It makes the body for sure un-usable for panoramic work. Again, this reminds me exactly of the kind of performance I was seeing with my Mamiya ZD.

Cheers,
Bernard
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mcfoto
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 04:43:21 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
It makes the body for sure un-usable for panoramic work. Again, this reminds me exactly of the kind of performance I was seeing with my Mamiya ZD.

Cheers,
Bernard

Thanks for saying that & at least the ZD had an 11 shot buffer now 22 with the new Zd back. The ZD was a 2004 design & the S2 a 2008 design. Really how could they get this so wrong, they could have learned from the ZD mistakes.
Denis

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Denis Montalbetti
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Jozef Zajaz
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 04:51:53 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Thanks for saying that & at least the ZD had an 11 shot buffer now 22 with the new Zd back. The ZD was a 2004 design & the S2 a 2008 design. Really how could they get this so wrong, they could have learned from the ZD mistakes.
Denis


Smooth tethered shooting is one of the big advantages i use mfdb instead of dslr in the studio. Good thing I've already bought amy mfdb
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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 05:10:12 PM »
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It's not a mistake they made, come on, they cant be that stupid! It just shows who is their targeted market. And they can't admit it and advertise the camera as a 'great entry in wealthy amateurs collection' because such a message wouldn't attract the wealthy amateurs  
Special Leica calculator has shown that developing a decent buffer making it an optional investment for a pro is not worth it. The buffer won't change the fact that each tech gear snob will want one. And let them have it, peace and love.

Oh and I'v seen used Zd back for $1700 today, still nobody wants it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 05:12:26 PM by Mr. Rib » Logged
woof75
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 09:06:28 PM »
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Quote from: RichA@FotoCare
Hi,
We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2.  We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed.  Hardware & Software are still in development.  Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better.  Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation.  Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.

Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care Digital

I'd be surprised if Leica can survive this.
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pschefz
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 09:21:04 PM »
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software updates won't change the port to fw800...but maybe the port really is already usb 3.0 compatible?...so we just have to wait a couple of years for a pc/mac to actually handle it?.....either way, i think they have a slide in module for wireless tethering planned...i wonder if it is wifi a, b or g....

how can anyone come up with a camera these days that is usable at only 160 or 320....
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georgl
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 03:39:28 AM »
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- ISO-performance is pre-production-stage - it doesn't make sense to argue about that, especially not based on processed JPGs in the net.

- Let's hope it's compatible to USB 3.0, but there is currently no standard available which fits the needs of tethered shooting - we don't know how much longer FW will be around (and with additional cards with their own drivers, the fun really starts...)

- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!

But I guess these arguments aren't welcome here, anyway.
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Christopher
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 05:07:31 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
- ISO-performance is pre-production-stage - it doesn't make sense to argue about that, especially not based on processed JPGs in the net.

- Let's hope it's compatible to USB 3.0, but there is currently no standard available which fits the needs of tethered shooting - we don't know how much longer FW will be around (and with additional cards with their own drivers, the fun really starts...)

- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!

But I guess these arguments aren't welcome here, anyway.


Well they are, but one could say exactly the opposite.

- ISO won't change much, perhaps half a stop better but that's it. Leica will NOT perform any miracles here

- I'm nearly 99% sure that it will not be a USB3 port. If it really is I will bow to Leica for it. However I just don't think so.

- Well yes fastest, but it also has the largest files. Sorry but my P65 has smaller raw files..... Perhaps they should really learn more about lossless compressions.

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yaya
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 05:39:08 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
- The S2 is the be far fastest MF-camera (>110MB/s, faster than the D3X with full-quality raw) around and the buffer is quite large by their standards - just use an appropriate (600x are supported) card!

Not sure I understand what "by their standards" means...as several of today's digital backs have no buffering issues at all, whatever the CF card type is...(and they shoot 50 frames/ minute or more.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 05:42:58 AM »
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I don't know what's gotten into you people.
It's obvious when you watch the video of the high pressure fashion shoot on the Leica website that this camera delivers the goods.

http://s.leica-camera.com/havanna

Look at how the photographer balls his fis after getting the shot.
Look at how the tech guy marvels at the detail in the shots as they pop up on his screen every 20 seconds.

And the proof in the pudding is seeing the model as she laughs while chimping with the photographer.

That only happens when the shot is in the bag and the client is all silly with satisfaction.





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Conner999
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 06:21:33 AM »
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Bingo

Quote from: Mr. Rib
It's not a mistake they made..... they can't admit it and advertise the camera as a 'great entry in wealthy amateurs collection' because such a message wouldn't attract the wealthy amateurs  

......And let them have it, peace and love.
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