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Author Topic: Leica S2  (Read 23005 times)
ced
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 06:27:39 AM »
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Don't know if we are looking at the same video but there is no hectic shooting there just a lot of fiddling...
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 06:38:09 AM »
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Another thing is maybe they don't exploit the full potential the chip gives of multiple readouts (supposedly 4 gates?) are they only using one exit?
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gwhitf
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 07:36:17 AM »
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Quote from: kipling

To be serious for a second, you watch that video after reading Michael Reichmann's review, and it almost makes you embarrassed to be in the advertising business. So my apologies to Yair, from one Liar to Another -- we're both questionable in our ethics. We both ought to be sent to the Principal's Office.

Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was).

I think for me, what made that Leica video even worse is, when you see one of those Behind The Scenes videos, there is a part of your brain that tells you that you're seeing the truth -- an unvarnished look under the hood of a photo session. When in fact, when you really look at that video, it's about as Hollywood as you can get. Could just as well have been Bruce Willis behind the camera, shooting while the strobes are going off, yet without any type of pocket wizard or sync cord in some of the scenes.

What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth. In some lab in Germany right now, there's some engineer looking through the camera manual, trying frantically, in vain, to make sure that that USB port can somehow be upgraded to USB 3.0.

So when you think about it, no wonder that the Christian Poulsen guy might not have had any love for Mr. Reichmann -- think of how many dollars were on the line. But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 07:51:05 AM by gwhitf » Logged
carstenw
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 09:21:43 AM »
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Quote from: RichA@FotoCare
We really like what we've seen of the Leica S2.  We have been working with Leica in showing it to our customers to get their input and pre sell the unit when production is up to speed.  Hardware & Software are still in development.  Am I happy about the current tethered shot rate, no, but they know that and are very happy to receive input on how to make the system better.  Not all pros shot tethered, it will depend on how they want to control the shooting situation.  Give it a test when it's released and when they have the software finalized.

They should just throw in 4GB before shipping. Memory is so cheap these days it makes no sense to gamble with a 6-image buffer.
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stevesanacore
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2009, 08:29:08 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...


I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.

Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.

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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2009, 09:12:45 PM »
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Quote from: stevesanacore
I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.

Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.

15 + 5 seconds = 20 seconds before the image appears on the screen via tether. That will be a deal breaker for many pros & the rental market.
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2009, 12:52:48 AM »
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Quote from: stevesanacore
I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.

Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.


leica calls the S2 their studio camera for the studio shooter....many here are simply disappointed (including myself) and amazed that something as simple as steady tethered shooting at a industry standard frame rate just isn't there....a usb port for a 40mpix camera smells already pretty bad and 20sec per image just kills it....i would really think that in the big picture of designing a camera and lenses these things would be easy or smaller problems....so the question is what was leica thinking? sure a lot of people will like it, but it is just plain stupid to cut out people who might want it really bad but simply can't use it because tether speed is beyond bad....

i am truly amazed because the m8 which nobody would consider a studio camera is a very solid tethered performer....of course the files are a lot smaller....regardless....sinar, phase, hass, leaf...they all have much, much faster tethered speed....the biggest market for these backs still requires it...
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2009, 01:39:22 AM »
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Quote from: stevesanacore
I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.

Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Tethering poll

18 out of 28 voters tend to tether their DSLR both in studio and on location...at least on this board nearly 2/3 of DSLR shooters like to use their cameras tethered...
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2009, 08:21:14 AM »
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Quote from: stevesanacore
I don't think the Leica S2 was ever designed to be used as a tethered camera - yes I know it works that way but why would someone buy a 35mm sized 37mp body to use on a tripod in a studio? It's a great hand holdable high resolution alternative to a Canon or Nikon. And for that I love it. It's a perfect camera for someone who shoots on location from ladders, boats, helicopters, landscapes, seascapes etc etc. There are plenty of pros that make a living shooting in that environment. I have tried it and think it's a great camera for many of us where other MF cameras would never work as well if at all.

Why are so many of you so negative? if you don't like it, don't buy it.
here here.

yet again everyone seems to think their way of working is the way that everyone works.
it isn't - lots of location people shoot 100% untethered.
not everyone is doing fashion/product shoots with Tech assistant on their elbow.

however I will say that I think Leica cutting the ties with Phase was not the smartest move.
yes I read about the registration info thing, but they would have had bullet proof tethering, world leader raw processor, and access to compressed raw file codecs that would have reduced their file sizes dramatically.
they fumbled the ball on this one, and the S2 will suffer due to it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 08:24:08 AM by narikin » Logged
Conner999
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2009, 08:38:48 AM »
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I could see how the tethering issue could happen. Leica has no headspace for the studio (or roll-your-own-studio location shoot) world and their only DSLR-esque body to date has been the sghort-lived, low-production DMR, which if IIRC (and I could be wrong) had no tethering ability. I shot with one very briefly but can't recall about tethering.

Now, that said, some simple benchmarking and some of that supposed in-depth input from studio/fashion shooters (or a latte at any decent studio) during the design of the system would have nailed that down in a  hurry. "..yup, make sure it's FW800, large buffer and quick tethered preview.." it's like saying it should have a hand strap - pretty well a given.

Shame, as they could have dumped a huge buffer in the beast (RAM is dirt cheap), tweaked some nice software and made the buffer and tethering speed a cheap-to-implement but very notable selling point vs the competition.  But instead, they cripple it AND make you use a (I assume) spendy and what will be hard to find custom cable that can lock on to the camera - thus sending it flying with the first errant foot.  I guess at that point, finding a replacement cable won't be your biggest concern anyway. Tethering isn't for everyone as was said, but you need to have that ability, in a decent form, onboard. It's a cheap way to avoid excluding LOTs of potential customers

All that being what it is, the S2 may be publicly targeted at the pro studio/fashion market, but as others have said, that's NOT where the VAST bulk of the unit's initial sales will come from.  The trick will be what will happen after that initial bubble of sales to die-hard Leicaphiles and the odd bleeding-edge user. If cash is slow to come in, the product line growth might slow which will slow sales even more as folks get nervous about orphaning, and round and round we go.

The S2 is a nice idea, looks pretty good but has some notable shortcomings.  However, to be fair, it is the firm's first MFDB body and could be refined handily in an S3, but the product line, Leica's rep in that target market and the company itself need to make it to an S3 stage to be able to improve upon the concept.

As for the "if you don't want it, don't buy it ..." comments, a big issue that raises hackles is the firm and it's die-hard fan's praising the thing (well prior to release let alone afterwards), like Leica's first step into MFDB land and back into DSLRs in general was the panacea to everyone's issues with MFDBs/high-end SLRs or that it somehow 're-defines' photography.  It's a interesting tweener body concept that has exploited some past lessons of other manufactures, but neglected to exploit some it should have. It looks great, has Nth percentile glass and from all accounts handles (note handles, not necessarily performs) well.

If some folks like it enough to buy, great, if many (who could afford to) don't, Leica shouldn't have any illusions as to why not. The S2 is a good first start. Lets see where (or IF) it goes from here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 08:51:29 AM by Conner999 » Logged
marcusperkins
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »
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Quote from: Conner999
I could see how the tethering issue could happen. Leica has no headspace for the studio (or roll-your-own-studio location shoot) world and their only DSLR-esque body to date has been the sghort-lived, low-production DMR, which if IIRC (and I could be wrong) had no tethering ability. I shot with one very briefly but can't recall about tethering.

Now, that said, some simple benchmarking and some of that supposed in-depth input from studio/fashion shooters (or a latte at any decent studio) during the design of the system would have nailed that down in a  hurry. "..yup, make sure it's FW800, large buffer and quick tethered preview.." it's like saying it should have a hand strap - pretty well a given.

Shame, as they could have dumped a huge buffer in the beast (RAM is dirt cheap), tweaked some nice software and made the buffer and tethering speed a cheap-to-implement but very notable selling point vs the competition.  But instead, they cripple it AND make you use a (I assume) spendy and what will be hard to find custom cable that can lock on to the camera - thus sending it flying with the first errant foot.  I guess at that point, finding a replacement cable won't be your biggest concern anyway. Tethering isn't for everyone as was said, but you need to have that ability, in a decent form, onboard. It's a cheap way to avoid excluding LOTs of potential customers

All that being what it is, the S2 may be publicly targeted at the pro studio/fashion market, but as others have said, that's NOT where the VAST bulk of the unit's initial sales will come from.  The trick will be what will happen after that initial bubble of sales to die-hard Leicaphiles and the odd bleeding-edge user. If cash is slow to come in, the product line growth might slow which will slow sales even more as folks get nervous about orphaning, and round and round we go.

The S2 is a nice idea, looks pretty good but has some notable shortcomings.  However, to be fair, it is the firm's first MFDB body and could be refined handily in an S3, but the product line, Leica's rep in that target market and the company itself need to make it to an S3 stage to be able to improve upon the concept.

As for the "if you don't want it, don't buy it ..." comments, a big issue that raises hackles is the firm and it's die-hard fan's praising the thing (well prior to release let alone afterwards), like Leica's first step into MFDB land and back into DSLRs in general was the panacea to everyone's issues with MFDBs/high-end SLRs or that it somehow 're-defines' photography.  It's a interesting tweener body concept that has exploited some past lessons of other manufactures, but neglected to exploit some it should have. It looks great, has Nth percentile glass and from all accounts handles (note handles, not necessarily performs) well.

If some folks like it enough to buy, great, if many (who could afford to) don't, Leica shouldn't have any illusions as to why not. The S2 is a good first start. Lets see where (or IF) it goes from here.

This is about the most succinct comment on the S2 to date.

I am completely bemused by leica's omission of a large buffer, and high(er) speed tethering. Short of a huge design oversight, there can be no logical reason for the omission. I know people work in lots of different ways, but if you're going to offer tethering, getting it right can't be so much more expensive than getting it wrong. However, getting it wrong must shut out at least 30% of professional buyers who had their eye on the S2 system.

I'm sure Leica will get it sorted in the future, but it will massively reduce the resale value of the first batch of S2s (unless they can be upgrade for free).

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carstenw
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2009, 02:15:03 PM »
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I have been thinking some more about this, and while I hope that Leica adds more RAM to make the buffer larger than 6 images, I think that the tethering issue ought to be solvable. The theoretical max. throughput of Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 are within 10% of each other... There is some protocol overhead in USB, but there should be no reason for Leica not to be able to pull within 20% of the performance of the P40+ setup. It is just a question of tuning the firmware in the camera and the software on the computer. I guess they need to just get out there and hire two of the top programmers in the field at whatever cost, and get it done.

If they can do this, if they fix the 6-image buffer (for example by giving 2:1 compression), then the USB port starts to look like a hidden benefit, if USB 3 can be supported. Apple seems to add less and less FW to their computers these days, and it is hard to find a decent computer from anyone else with FW. I am a big FW fan, but I have the creeping feeling that the party is almost over. Cheap wins, yet again.
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2009, 02:25:43 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
here here.

yet again everyone seems to think their way of working is the way that everyone works.
it isn't - lots of location people shoot 100% untethered.
not everyone is doing fashion/product shoots with Tech assistant on their elbow.

however I will say that I think Leica cutting the ties with Phase was not the smartest move.
yes I read about the registration info thing, but they would have had bullet proof tethering, world leader raw processor, and access to compressed raw file codecs that would have reduced their file sizes dramatically.
they fumbled the ball on this one, and the S2 will suffer due to it.

the good thing with a faster shooting rate is that it will work untethered too, the bad thing on a slow rate is that it wont work tethered.
can u see the difference ?
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rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2009, 02:26:10 PM »
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The lesson to Leica, in all this, should be to keep your cards close to your chest. Here they are, already late in shipping, supposedly due to "production issues", and they're still working out gaping holes in the system? But the key thing is: They're doing it publicly, in full view of the buying public.

There is a reason that a retail store puts up that brown kraft paper over the windows as they're prepping their stores -- they don't want the public to see the making of the sausage, until Grand Opening Day. Maybe they've learned a lesson in this; it certainly has blown up in their face.

And the ironic thing is: They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera, and they show the guy shooting to the computer, and yet, the most glaring shortcoming of the system is the very thing they feature in the video.

They'd have been much better off flying to Africa, on some Range Rover safari, and shown a bunch of handsome men and women shooting to card, with a bunch of lions and tigers in the background, at sunset, with a computer nowhere in sight.
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2009, 02:36:27 PM »
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after i listened the announcement of the s2  1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange  DMR  system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M8 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica  would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept.  lets see how this story will go on now and, in the worst but most likely case, how it will end.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 03:15:09 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2009, 02:49:28 PM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
after i listened the announcement of the s2  1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange  DMR  system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M9 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica  would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept.  lets see how this story will go on now and, in the worst but most likely case, how it will end.

seems that leica caters mostly to taiwanese and japanese collectors. since they do not unpack their cameras there is no problem with thethering performance.
on a more serious note, leica messed up the M8, didn't even get it right with the M8.2, released a suboptimal M9 in a hurry (which is still an interesting camera
but far from what it should and could have been) and now they do everything possibly wrong with the S2...except the lenses. this shows that leica is mainly an
optics company with little understanding of digital photography. the S2 was supposed to be their pathway into digital, but the price-performance ratio is subpar.
the S3 will be better for another 20.000.-Euros (of course without upgrade path) but....
good that phase and hasselblad deliver.
peter
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archivue
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2009, 04:24:19 PM »
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i wonder why they just don't offer leica R lenses in EF mount as zeiss ZE...
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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 08:12:12 PM »
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Quote from: archivue
i wonder why they just don't offer leica R lenses in EF mount as zeiss ZE...

Because they are stupid in some ways ^^
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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2009, 08:40:25 PM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
after i listened the announcement of the s2  1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.

That is a very European statement.... i.e. if somebody develops something new, the first thing (we) Europeans do, is to find reasons why it can't work.
Most often the conclusion then is "let's not get even started".
Kudos to Leica to not fall into this trap.

The US mentality is to not look left or right, just do it, since we are in the US, it gotta be the best and the biggest. After a while, reality catches up with the development. But the product has been developed then, and there is a chance that improvements iron out initial shortcomings.

Regarding Firewire: Its basically dead, since Apple moves away from it.
I think Carsten had a point by saying that a bigger buffer, file compression and firmware improvements can help with tethering speed.

And: Hasn't the poll here shown that 1/3 of photogs don't insist on tethering?
If somebody builds a new car, targeting it to 1/3 of the driver population is not bad.
--

In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.

Peter
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« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2009, 08:49:57 PM »
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Quote from: psorantin
In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.

When a 8000 US$ D3x gets shot down in flames because of its price although it has delivered perfectly on all its promises (and then more), don't you think it is normal that a 23.000 US$ offering generates criticism when it gets it wrong in important areas like buffer depth, thethered shooting or cold weather battery life?

What does that have to do with European vs US mind sets?

I totally agree with you that the issues that have been reported will not impact all users of the S2, and that the system has great potential mostly in terms of image look thanks to the lenses, but this should not prevent issues from being pointed out.

Cheers,
Bernard
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