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Author Topic: Leica S2  (Read 23017 times)
arashm
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« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2010, 12:20:44 PM »
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Quote from: LiamStrain
Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.

His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html


You know, I like Chris's work but taking out a S2 to shoot Jpegs.... is a bit nutty for me.
but hey to each their own....
am
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fredjeang
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« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2010, 12:31:28 PM »
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Quote from: LiamStrain
Not sure if he got through a dealer, or Leica themselves since he's on the list for prototype testing (got #21 and #24 M9 models), but I know at least one shooter in the US with an S2. He took it out for a spin the other day.

His blog post about it:
http://aphotocontributor.typepad.com/aphot...real-beast.html
Hey, what an interesting link...if you read between lines about the "fucking landscape shooters"...but the think is, that there are probably more talent in some forums than what I've seen in those more than average pictures.  
It is worth a look, judge by yourself.
I think he did not like some critisims here and somewhere else, and he is angry.
He will survive...

Fred.
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LiamStrain
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« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2010, 12:31:45 PM »
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AM - I agree with you about the JPGs. But I can understand his point from a workflow standpoint here. He wasn't going to have time to do any work on them, and given that there is still some question about the raw conversions, he wasn't taking chances. I imagine the JPGS were tagged and up on the wire pretty immediately.

As for his attitude, he's pretty opinionated and has little patience for the dentists shooting scenic barns with a 1DsMkIII and a P65+ on order crowd. I think he could care less about what anyone in a forum thinks.

He will survive, and so will we.  I take him with a good natured grain of salt. I like his work.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 12:39:29 PM by LiamStrain » Logged

arashm
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« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2010, 12:38:11 PM »
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Quote from: LiamStrain
AM - I agree with you about the JPGs. But I can understand his point from a workflow standpoint here. He wasn't going to have time to do any work on them, and given that there is still some question about the raw conversions, he wasn't taking changes. I imagine the JPGS were tagged and up on the wire pretty immediately.

As for his attitude, he's pretty opinionated and has little patience for the dentists shooting scenic barns with a 1DsMkIII and a P65+ on order crowd. I think he could care less about what anyone in a forum thinks.

He will survive, and so will we.  I take him with a good natured grain of salt. I like his work.

I agree with you.
I don't have any problem with opinionated people.
am
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fredjeang
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« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2010, 12:59:00 PM »
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Seriously, He is a great photographer no doubt, and it is fine he says what he thinks without curves...and it is fine we do the same.
Liam, since I joined the LU-LA I'm learning much more english expressions than in my all studies.
The "dentists shooting scenic barns" made me laugh for awile. I loved it!

Fred.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2010, 01:09:56 PM »
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Why can't we just get a coupled rangefinder camera with a 6x6 digital FF sensor ... ?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2010, 01:27:23 PM »
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Quote from: ChristophC
Why can't we just get a coupled rangefinder camera with a 6x6 digital FF sensor ... ?
mmm...pentax was on that, but now it is not sure they will do it this year. I would like to because I have some wonderful pentax primes that I do not use. A digital succesor of the Pentax 6x7 would be terrific. (it is not rangefinder but...quasi) But I might get tired of waiting and invest in another system if they don't do it this year.

Fred.
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narikin
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« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2010, 12:42:58 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
Nothing prevents Leica from designing the S2 to be factory-upgradable to a new sensor - send it in, and get a new hi-rez or hi-iso or CMOS chip, and maybe LiveView electronics drop-shiipped back home for $10K? Maybe get the shutter and mirrorbox swapped too, and a new battery thrown in? Also, this would be a steady revenue stream which would bypass the dealers, just like Microsoft got - dealers sell an S2 once, Leica gets 2 or 3 upgrades out of it because used cameras can be upgraded too ...
Edmund

+1

they need to get this official and publicly stated, just like Phase, an Upgrade Path is very advisable for (potential) customers so they know their investment is protected to an acceptable degree.

I went from P45+ to P65+ via that route, and it kept me in the Phase loop.

its not necessary withthe M series cameras so much, but with the S series and its stratospheric prices, it most definitely is.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2010, 03:00:30 PM »
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Hi,

Leica had an upgrade program for the M8, at least.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: narikin
+1

they need to get this official and publicly stated, just like Phase, an Upgrade Path is very advisable for (potential) customers so they know their investment is protected to an acceptable degree.

I went from P45+ to P65+ via that route, and it kept me in the Phase loop.

its not necessary withthe M series cameras so much, but with the S series and its stratospheric prices, it most definitely is.
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Pentacon Six
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« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2010, 03:34:15 AM »
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Shooting people my favorite pastime' - Russia's Medvedev

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100210/157837850.html

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narikin
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« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2010, 10:03:57 AM »
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ha - nice to know he can afford one at least.
I see the price of this already declining a bit in USA. no need to pay full list unlike the M9.
Leica over-pitched it.

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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2010, 11:48:30 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
ha - nice to know he can afford one at least.
he can afford as many as he want





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tashley
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2010, 12:08:27 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
"When tethered via USB the S2's performance is dramatically reduced. Each frame takes about 15 seconds to transmit to the computer and then a further five seconds till the image appears"
This is the most ridiculous oversight I've seen in a long time, does Leica have any idea what a professional photographer does. Is this a dentists camera after all...


I have an S2 (have had it for six weeks now, I paid retail and got it through normal retail channels) and so having read through this thread today I thought I'd test my shipping version's tethered performance.

I do not often shoot tethered but sometimes need to, and when I do it is 20% in the field, and about 40/40 studio still life and portrait. So I am not one of those guys that needs to pop off 100 shots a minute and I rarely know where the Continuous button is on my cameras. Nonetheless I do own a fairly well equipped studio, two or three macs, an S2 and a Phase One setup with P45+ on an AFDIII with a 'new' style body on order. So I was able to run some comparative tests. Not very scientific, using an iPhone as a timer, but you get the picture.

First up the S2. I set up a folder for it to dump into and then just monitored how quickly it can do so. The answer is 15 frames a minute in C mode but in S mode you can get it to 17. Interestingly, the first ten seconds in C mode see nine frames recorded and then the rate drops radically. If you shoot into LR the first frame appears in a shade under 12 seconds but C1 has it from a hot folder in 8.8 and if you just watch the folder itself, the first frame is there in 5.7.

Next, the P45+ and I should mention here that I find when shooting studio sessions, this is sometimes a pig. When the wind is in the right direction it's great but some sessions it just keeps dropping the camera/computer connection and requires re-starting of C1 and of the camera - once, memorably, when I had a paid model and a deadline, for every frame. Today however everything was smooth: I shot into a clean new tethered folder and the first frame popped up in 4.6 seconds. In Continuous mode I got 32 shots in the first minute BUT interestingly the first ten seconds captured only 6 frames as against the S2's 9.

The S2's performance here could certainly be faster, especially after the first burst of nine or ten frames, but honestly for the way I shoot I would find the S2 at least as useful as the P45+. I tend to bang of a small handful of frames and then check them on the monitor to see if I have what I want and the S2 is a little faster at that. I rarely use an assistant so by the time I've got to the monitor the lag in transmission, which for those first few frames is small anyway, would not be an issue. Given that I so far find Image Shuttle (despite still being in Beta) more dependable than C1's tethered shooting, I think I'd generally get more done and with less hassle with an S2.

Another really important thing, and I use this with joy, is the ability to shoot tethered to a Macbook Air. For travel landscape work this is a great boon when you're trying to keep weight down on airlines.

I do appreciate that a lot of you guys are working often with fast-paced fashion shoots, art directors and clients hovering critically over monitors and assistants aplenty and that for you, larger buffers and faster data rates are vital. For me it matters not a jot. I don't really 'get' why Leica went the way it did (other than the imminent demise of FW?) but the S2's tethered shooting suits me fine.

Tim
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:14:56 PM by tashley » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2010, 04:19:02 PM »
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Quote from: tashley
Next, the P45+ and I should mention here that I find when shooting studio sessions, this is sometimes a pig. When the wind is in the right direction it's great but some sessions it just keeps dropping the camera/computer connection and requires re-starting of C1 and of the camera - once, memorably, when I had a paid model and a deadline, for every frame. Today however everything was smooth: I shot into a clean new tethered folder and the first frame popped up in 4.6 seconds. In Continuous mode I got 32 shots in the first minute BUT interestingly the first ten seconds captured only 6 frames as against the S2's 9.

I'd visit your Phase One dealer or give them a call. There is no reason your P45+ tethering shouldn't be absolutely rock solid. This is one of the reasons why Phase One backs tethered to Capture One have by far the largest market in professional rental.

You could also check out our ideal tethred setup guide which outlines the things that can sometimes cause issues. At the top of my list in the last couple months (as far as calls to our dealership) has been people who have another firewire device plugged in (even if not in use) - firewire busses can sometimes start cross-talking when more than one device is plugged in which can cause a dropped connection.

The Image Shuttle tethering application is very promising but they have not yet removed the "beta" label the last time I checked (Jan 29) and I would agree with their decision not to do so as in my experience it's not yet at production-stability. The promising aspects are the ability to shoot both JPG and RAW, but place them in different folders (could be very helpful to digital techs), the ability to completely control the camera from the computer, the simple-but-informative interface, and some nice UI touches that I find very smartly implemented.

The positive about S2 tethering is, as you point out, that initial burst of images possible. The negative is the shot-to-preview time, especially for the last image in a series, can be upwards of a minute long. Though a more appropriate comparison would be a Phase One P40+, Leaf Aptus-II 8 or H4D-40 (all of which are much faster than your P45+ and are more of a generational sibling to the S2). The Aptus-II 8 for instance can capture 60 images in a minute.

As you you so aptly illustrate though not everyone's needs long bursts with quick review when shooting tethered. Not everyone's needs are the same.

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2010, 07:15:36 PM »
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I have been using Dragon Stop Motion http://www.dragonstopmotion.com/ to tether; while it won't be very useful for action shots, it's abilities with regard to LiveView and overlays are superb.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
BJNY
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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2010, 07:22:53 PM »
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Edmund,

Would you start a thread about HOW you're using this Dragon Stop Motion, please?

Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2010, 09:15:29 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros. There are way more wealthy amateurs out there than pros shooting tethered in a commercial studio. (Wouldn't you just love to see the market share demographics, just out of curiosity?) I'd bet it might be as high as 10:1.

Their target market will never tether, and will never come close to hitting the buffer. They'll shoot low-volume landscapes, or whatever, and probably be incredibly happy with the camera. I am dead serious.

I'm betting that, if we could ever get our paws on those top-secret demographic break-out sheets, we'd find that professional photographers that are owning and using MF gear, and tethering, are but a tiny blip on anybody's radar. My bet is, most pros that are tethering with paying jobs are renting the whole rig either from the studio, or from a Tech. They shoot the job, hand the camera to the Tech, and wave goodbye.

This S2 is a camera to go into an Eddie Bauer Expedition, or a Range Rover. Not a Grip Truck.

Having said that, can you imagine that some Leica engineer sat there with his stopwatch, and timed Twenty Seconds before the RAW came in at a full rez, and said, "Yes, that is perfect. Much faster than 669 Polaroid! Ship it!"


Quote from: gwhitf
To be serious for a second, you watch that video after reading Michael Reichmann's review, and it almost makes you embarrassed to be in the advertising business. So my apologies to Yair, from one Liar to Another -- we're both questionable in our ethics. We both ought to be sent to the Principal's Office.

Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was).

I think for me, what made that Leica video even worse is, when you see one of those Behind The Scenes videos, there is a part of your brain that tells you that you're seeing the truth -- an unvarnished look under the hood of a photo session. When in fact, when you really look at that video, it's about as Hollywood as you can get. Could just as well have been Bruce Willis behind the camera, shooting while the strobes are going off, yet without any type of pocket wizard or sync cord in some of the scenes.

What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth. In some lab in Germany right now, there's some engineer looking through the camera manual, trying frantically, in vain, to make sure that that USB port can somehow be upgraded to USB 3.0.

So when you think about it, no wonder that the Christian Poulsen guy might not have had any love for Mr. Reichmann -- think of how many dollars were on the line. But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times.


Quote from: gwhitf
The lesson to Leica, in all this, should be to keep your cards close to your chest. Here they are, already late in shipping, supposedly due to "production issues", and they're still working out gaping holes in the system? But the key thing is: They're doing it publicly, in full view of the buying public.

There is a reason that a retail store puts up that brown kraft paper over the windows as they're prepping their stores -- they don't want the public to see the making of the sausage, until Grand Opening Day. Maybe they've learned a lesson in this; it certainly has blown up in their face.

And the ironic thing is: They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera, and they show the guy shooting to the computer, and yet, the most glaring shortcoming of the system is the very thing they feature in the video.

They'd have been much better off flying to Africa, on some Range Rover safari, and shown a bunch of handsome men and women shooting to card, with a bunch of lions and tigers in the background, at sunset, with a computer nowhere in sight.


Quote from: gwhitf
Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ

I appreciated tashley taking the time to post his observations of the Leica S2 after his 6 weeks of ownership. Although he has only made one post in this thread so far, I hope to read more of his experience in the future. I hope that it's positive, but want to read more of his experience either way.

gwhitf,

You have written several opinions of the Leica S2 in this thread and I'm wondering what experience you've had with the camera so far. Are you basing what you've written on what you've read about it or some hands on experience?

To quote a few samples from your above posts:

"My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros."

"Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was)."

"What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth."

"But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times."

"They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera,"


Fake shoot? Non-working camera? That seems like a pretty strong assertion. Have you not yet seen a working camera?

Are your several opinions "an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype"? Hype as we know can be negative as well as positive.

I'm asking because a movie review written by a critic based on what he's read about the movie has less value to me than one from a critic that has actually seen the movie. Know what I mean?

tashley... how does gwhitf know that you are reading "Cigar Aficionado"? Might want to close the curtains.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 02:00:47 AM by TechTalk » Logged
tashley
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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2010, 04:48:31 AM »
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Quote from: TechTalk
I appreciated tashley taking the time to post his observations of the Leica S2 after his 6 weeks of ownership. Although he has only made one post in this thread so far, I hope to read more of his experience in the future. I hope that it's positive, but want to read more of his experience either way.

gwhitf,

You have written several opinions of the Leica S2 in this thread and I'm wondering what experience you've had with the camera so far. Are you basing what you've written on what you've read about it or some hands on experience?

To quote a few samples from your above posts:

"My bet is that Leica can simply ignore the pro market and sell these things to wealthy amateurs. THAT is their market for this camera; not pros."

"Secondly, it underscores the value of an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype and "reviews" by the people selling the products, especially when you're talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars of investment. (Not that I was, but maybe somewhere, in some country, someone was)."

"What's also sobering is how a thorough review separates the hype from the truth."

"But the only stroke of luck for Leica is -- no potential customer of the Leica S2 is reading Luminous Landscape, so they won't be presented with the truth. All those Leica customers are reading The Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, and The Financial Times."

"They fly to Havana, produce an expensive video, showing a fake fashion shoot, probably with a non-working camera,"


Fake shoot? Non-working camera? That seems like a pretty strong assertion. Have you not yet seen a working camera?

Are your several opinions "an objective, thorough honest review, rather than relying on hype"? Hype as we know can be negative as well as positive.

I'm asking because a movie review written by a critic based on what he's read about the movie has less value to me than one from a critic that has actually seen the movie. Know what I mean?

tashley... how does gwhitf know that you are reading "Cigar Aficionado"? Might want to close the curtains.

ROTFL.... weirdly I did smoke a cigar last night but, and this may tell gwhitf something, I have no idea what it was - it just happened to be available and I enjoyed it.

I appreciate your invitation but I probably won't take it up: I have learned that there are an awful lot of people who who have never tasted Chinese food but have incredibly strong opinions on what it must surely taste like and why it has been wrongly prepared.

I have a gallery of S2 pictures at the below address and I hasten to add that these have all been taken in a casual walk around sense while I got to know the camera before committing to using it for anything serious. So they are educated snapshots only and I make no claim for them other than that. However, in the interests of collaborative endeavour, they are all available for download at their original size and as JPEGs most are at between 90 and 100% quality. Some are crops, many are not, and the shots are chosen purely to show a variety of ISO's, shutter speeds, apertures, working conditions etc. If they are useful to anyone, then I'm happy.

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p141510420/ha8ce4ab#ha8ce4ab

Here's one of them for anyone interested:


Best

Tim
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:50:42 AM by tashley » Logged
erick.boileau
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« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2010, 07:34:55 AM »
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Quote from: BJNY
Edmund,

Would you start a thread about HOW you're using this Dragon Stop Motion, please?

Billy
I am interested too
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eronald
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« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2010, 03:18:46 PM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
I am interested too

Done, thread is up in this forum, as it is LiveView and this is something us chickens here tend to do.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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