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Author Topic: Switching from PC to Mac?  (Read 21621 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 10:43:16 PM »
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Quote from: marcmccalmont
But it is true...
Hey, I never meant this to evolve into another Mac vs PC war.... especially when I apparently have two marines against me    But what exactly is true in Jonathan's statement I reacted to? That Mac user are fanatics, or the price premium exists, and I quote: "... just because the case is pretty"!? A comment like that is more like an insult (to intelligence) of people using or switching to Mac, especially on this forum.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 11:02:15 PM »
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Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
I've met plenty of people for whom Apple is more of a religion or cult than a choice of technology, complete with the compulsive need to either convert, insult, or subdue the heretics who use Windows, and a strong superiority complex....
Ok... so let's start with "heretics who use Windows"... last time I checked, heretic means "a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted." Given that the ratio of PC vs. Mac users is probably 90/10 or 80/20 in PC favor, one can actually consider Mac users heretics (as PC is "generally accepted")  

As for "compulsive need to either convert, insult or subdue"... in which category would you classify calling Mac users "religious cadre of zealots" falling for a 'dumb blonde' (i.e., buying Mac for its looks alone)?

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...I have yet to meet anyone similarly afflicted over Windows...
Perhaps there is a reason for that (i.e., that nobody loves it)?  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 11:04:57 PM by slobodan56 » Logged

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Gemmtech
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 11:13:19 PM »
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Quote from: slobodan56
Ok... so let's start with "heretics who use Windows"... last time I checked, heretic means "a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted." Given that the ratio of PC vs. Mac users is probably 90/10 or 80/20 in PC favor, one can actually consider Mac users heretics (as PC is "generally accepted")  

As for "compulsive need to either convert, insult or subdue"... in which category would you classify calling Mac users "religious cadre of zealots" falling for a 'dumb blonde' (i.e., buying Mac for its looks alone)?


Perhaps there is a reason for that (i.e., that nobody loves it)?  

I think you misconstrued his statement, look at it another way, MAC users are religious zealots and therefore the Windows users in the eyes of the MAC user are heretics; IOW, you are a heretic if you don't believe in the doctrine of your own church and the MAC user believes that they are the only church and everybody else are heretics. Through the eyes of the MAC user (Parishioner); that's how I interpreted what he said, maybe I'm wrong  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 11:15:36 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
marcmccalmont
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 11:19:50 PM »
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Bottom line is through this thread I have heard various opinions and that is the strength of this forum. The positive speaks for itself the negative needs to be discussed!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 11:25:21 PM »
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"a little tough comparison because the Sony is a 24" touchscreen (Apples are 21" or 27"), but it's a quadcore, 6GB ram, 1GB video ram, blu-ray, tv tuner, Card reader, remote control, HDMI, put those specs on the Apple (I guess you can't get Blu-Ray) and see how much more,  $500.00?"

True but when you consider that throwing away say 4, 2 gig simms and purchasing 4, 4 gig simms the price evens out. Apple to their credit allows you to purchase 2, 4gig simms and then in the future upgrade by purchasing 2 more 4 gig simms
Marc
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 11:26:57 PM by marcmccalmont » Logged

Marc McCalmont
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 11:40:46 PM »
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Quote from: slobodan56
But what exactly is true in Jonathan's statement I reacted to? That Mac user are fanatics, or the price premium exists, and I quote: "... just because the case is pretty"!? A comment like that is more like an insult (to intelligence) of people using or switching to Mac, especially on this forum.

It's pretty well established that Apple has a fairly large user segment that is similar to a religious cult in the following ways:
  • They view non-Apple computer users as ignorant, misguided, stupid, or evil.
  • They utilize every opportunity available to promote the perceived advantages of Apple products, and to insult and disparage non-Apple technology, especially Microsoft and Windows. Terms like "Micro$oft" and "Windoze" are de rigeur.
  • They minimize, ignore, or deny the existence of any flaws or problems in Apple products, and exaggerate problems with non-Apple products.
  • They believe that using Apple computer products makes them superior to non-Apple users.


I've personally met a bunch of these Mac zealots, but have never encountered a similarly rabid PC enthusiast in the wild. If you are "insulted" that I've stated the obvious, that's your problem. Regarding the price premium for Apple hardware, it's generally been the case for the last decade or so. Prices fluctuate in the technology world, and while Apple desktops may not cost much more than an equivalent PC at the moment, it's not something you should expect to be the case all the time. It's certainly not the case in the laptop department.

Marc asked a question, and I offered an honest opinion based on my comparative experience between Apple and Other. If you disagree with my assessment, feel free. But if you're "insulted" by my stating the obvious regarding Mac enthusiasts, perhaps it's because you're one of the "gushing fanboys" (YOUR term, not mine!) I described, and you're more interested in promoting your particular point of view than helping Marc figure out if buying a Mac is really his best option.

If Marc has compared all of the products (both Apple and Other) that might meet his needs, and after figuring in the learning curve of a different OS and associated bugs and quirks, the monetary cost of each option, and the suitability of the tool to the need he decides the Mac is the best choice, fine. But assuming that the Apple product is always the best choice in all circumstances for all purposes for all users (which you pretty much stated in your first post in this thread) is simple-minded fanboyism, and often wrong.

One final note: I've served in the Air Force and the Army, but not the Marines.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 12:24:15 AM »
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Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
You will have to re-buy all your software.

Not true, my key software components were all OK when I switched 2.5 years ago:
- Adobe was fine after a bit of discussions here in Japan
- Helicon focus was OK
- PTgui and Autopano were OK

Regards,
Bernard
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 12:42:36 AM »
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Quote from: slobodan56
Ok... so let's start with "heretics who use Windows"... last time I checked, heretic means "a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted." Given that the ratio of PC vs. Mac users is probably 90/10 or 80/20 in PC favor, one can actually consider Mac users heretics (as PC is "generally accepted")  

I'm using the term from the Apple zealot's perspective, obviously. Heretics being the misguided fools deserving ostracism or worse...

Quote
As for "compulsive need to either convert, insult or subdue"... in which category would you classify calling Mac users "religious cadre of zealots" falling for a 'dumb blonde' (i.e., buying Mac for its looks alone)?

Your words, not mine. I said Apple has a cadre of fervent enthusiasts, not that all Apple users are so fervently enthusiastic. There's a big difference--kind of like the difference between pointing out the fact that most suicide bombers are Muslims (true), and saying that all Muslims are wannabe suicide bombers (definitely false). Most people who display an irrational devotion to a computer brand are Apple fans, but not all Apple fans are irrational zealots.

There are some situations where a Mac is the best choice. I use my Macbook when shooting tethered because the Windows version of the software doesn't support my cameras. But if you need a small compact laptop for accessing email on the road or for image backup/viewing on a backpacking trip, Apple is not your best choice. You'd be much better off with a netbook from Acer, Asus, or HP. The key principle is to analyze all of the pros and cons of all the alternatives with an open mind, and not just offer a blanket "it's always right to switch to Mac" recommendation.

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Perhaps there is a reason for that (i.e., that nobody loves it)?  

Which is of course why Apple has <20% market share--everyone hates the alternatives...
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 12:45:49 AM »
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Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
It's pretty well established that Apple has a fairly large user segment that is similar to a religious cult in the following ways:
  • They view non-Apple computer users as ignorant, misguided, stupid, or evil.
  • They utilize every opportunity available to promote the perceived advantages of Apple products, and to insult and disparage non-Apple technology, especially Microsoft and Windows. Terms like "Micro$oft" and "Windoze" are de rigeur.
  • They minimize, ignore, or deny the existence of any flaws or problems in Apple products, and exaggerate problems with non-Apple products.
  • They believe that using Apple computer products makes them superior to non-Apple users.

Right... you will also find people arguing about electric shavers here: http://www.shavers.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Cheers,
Bernard
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francois
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 02:21:44 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Right... you will also find people arguing about electric shavers here: http://www.shavers.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Cheers,
Bernard
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Francois
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 08:09:26 AM »
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Quote from: marcmccalmont
I'm thinking of going from an HP laptop to an iMac all in one computer
The logic is I will probably be living in an apartment in the near future and an all in one will double as a TV
The iMac appears to be the highest performance all in one
Has any one gone through the process of migrating windows programs to a Mac? Is it expensive or no cost? CS4, DxO, C1 etc? I would like to run most of the programs on the Mac OS and the few CAD programs not available for a Mac on windows.
The other option is to purchase a high end laptop (probably HP) and use an external monitor when at home.
Thanks
Marc

I did so earlier this year. I had C1 but since I had already used an upgrade from 3.7 to 4, they would not let me do a free switch to Mac, so I dropped C1. I also had to get Apple word processing software/Office software etc (or I could have paid a premium for the Mac version of the Windows stuff) so that was another expense.

I have been reading on the Apple Support forum about some discoloration problems with the displays on the latest iMacs, so you may want to check the display carefully before you buy.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 09:09:01 AM »
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Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
  • They utilize every opportunity available to promote the perceived advantages of Apple products, and to insult and disparage non-Apple technology, especially Microsoft and Windows. Terms like "Micro$oft" and "Windoze" are de rigeur.

This is the crux of it. The constantly used word "Windoze", it's insulting and unnecessary. The OP asked a pretty basic question and I don't think there's a bulletproof answer, buying any computer is tricky; hardware can be unreliable, OS issues affect both systems - Windows perhaps more since the OS has to support millions of PC hardware combinations.

The real problem when buying PC's is the huge choice available, and much of it is pretty poor. With laptops I can only think of Thinkpads that are particularly reliable, I have an HP Elitebook 8730w which is top of the line but it has it's own problems. The OP implied that he wanted a visually neat system, this lowers the choice a lot, the iMac may be the answer although I wouldn't buy one for reasons given above. It's a bit of a jungle out there.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2009, 09:26:55 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Not true, my key software components were all OK when I switched 2.5 years ago:
- Adobe was fine after a bit of discussions here in Japan
- Helicon focus was OK
- PTgui and Autopano were OK

Regards,
Bernard

Thats good news
Other than adobe did you just download a mac version and type in your existing serial number?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 10:05:49 AM »
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Quote from: Pete_G
This is the crux of it. The constantly used word "Windoze", it's insulting and unnecessary.

It's far more common to see that sort of disparaging terminology used by Apple users toward the Windows side than it is to see terms like "CrApple" or "OSsuX" used by Windows users in reference to Apple. This thread is yet another example...

Back to the original question: Knowing how much RAM, storage, and other parameters are deemed necessary would make it easier to do an intelligent and pertinent apples-to-Apples comparison.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 10:21:25 AM »
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Quote from: marcmccalmont
... Other than adobe did you just download a mac version and type in your existing serial number?...
Back in 2005, Neat Image responded: "... depends on edition of Neat Image for Windows. If it is the
Pro or Pro+ edition then the shift can be made for free."
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2009, 11:38:55 AM »
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I have to make IT purchase decisions for a 3,000+ employee education organization, so the PC vs Mac issue is always on my mind. And I own machines from both platforms, an use them both on a daily basis. Here's some observations:

1. The platforms are actually converging in terms of feel and features, pretty rapidly. It seems like Microsoft adopts what it likes about the Mac when it updates Windows, and Apple does the converse. (For example, as far as I'm concerned, the new taskbar in W7 is actually better than the OSX dock, but I suppose that's a personal choice. Let's see what we get in the next major rev of their OS.)

2. I get the feeling that Apple is steadily moving mainstream/consumer with their product line. While that does get them more market share, it also leads to problems for some of their previous target groups, like serious photographers. I'm thinking here of glossy laptop screens that don't dim well, and color management pipelines that get dumbed down for the masses. In the mean time, Microsoft steadily improves Windows color management. So in another five years, I'm not sure they'll be all that different for our purposes.

3. There's a tendency among the Mac faithful to go full Apple. They'll buy a Mac, an iPhone, and an iPod, and eschew Microsoft forever. That sure makes integrating all of their devices easier, but those kinds of owners will sometimes miss out on developments in the PC world. Even in this thread, we have people comparing Snow Leopard to XP, which is like comparing a new Windows 7 machine to an early Mac G4. Windows 7 really is very good, Apple's snarky "I'm a Mac" commercials notwithstanding. XP is still in use all over the place, but none of my personal machines are running it now. I have a copy of the XP Virtual Machine running in Windows 7 Ultimate on my fastest home computer for, you guessed it, making prints for custom profiles, since Snow Leopard is troublesome, and the Windows 7 printer drivers for my 5 year old printers don't include an option to turn off color management.

4. The Apple hardware is substantially more expensive. It tends to be of high quality, especially in terms of design and feel, but there's no getting around the fact that you can just about always buy a faster PC for less money. My mother has a beautiful HP touchscreen all-in-one (running Windows 7 now) that she got just a couple months ago for $600. I've never seen an iMac for anything close to that. Having said that, I just ordered a new MacBook Pro, because I needed a laptop that could run on battery power for many hours while I'm in meetings. Initial purchase price is one factor, but repairing Macs is usually much more expensive than PCs. Mostly because Apple doesn't want you taking them apart, and goes out of the way to make that difficult and expensive. It's sort of like the auto world: You can buy an inexpensive car that is cheap to maintain, yet somewhat unreliable, or you can buy an expensive car that rarely breaks. Good arguments can be made in either direction. There are inexpensive cars that are very reliable, but nothing quite like that in the computing world. Maybe an Ubuntu laptop I guess.

5. Apple spends a lot of resources really trying to figure out how their users work, then they design their h/w and s/w so that it works as smoothly as possible in that context only. That is great for the majority of users, but not so great for the minority with special needs, or an interest in tweaking. I'm told that they stuck with one-button mice for so long because research told them it was the best way to prevent a user from using the wrong button. Great. There are those of us who mastered multi-button pucks during the Reagan administration, and don't need uncle Steve looking after us in that way. But for many people, computing simplicity is a godsend.

6. The real question is where we'll be in ten years. Cloud computing and software as a service could result in the OS being pretty much irrelevant. We'll just have to see. In the mean time, if Adobe would publish Linux versions of Lightroom and Photoshop, I can tell you where I'd start spending my money...

7. Let's start arguing over the best pickup trucks - that's just as productive as the classic Mac-PC argument.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2009, 12:04:43 PM »
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Quote from: slobodan56
Hey, I never meant this to evolve into another Mac vs PC war.... especially when I apparently have two marines against me    But what exactly is true in Jonathan's statement I reacted to? That Mac user are fanatics, or the price premium exists, and I quote: "... just because the case is pretty"!? A comment like that is more like an insult (to intelligence) of people using or switching to Mac, especially on this forum.

Then please explain why you refer to Microsoft Windows as "windoze".  I completely agree with Jonsthan's assertions and conclusions.  If you are not a fanatic, then why stoop to their terminology?
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2009, 12:06:34 PM »
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Not to rehash what has already been said, but the best feature of buying a Mac is the ability to run Windows if one has a need to do so. This allows you to use your current PC software without having to upgrade. Both my MacPro and MacBook Pro dual boot with Vista Ultimate 64 bit. You don't have the option of running Mac OS on a PC. This gives you the freedom to run platform specific software on your machine.

When I switched to Mac back in 2006 at the advise of my Graphic Design Professor, I was a Windows user for 12 years. I built my own machines often struggling with compatibility and driver issues. I am very happy with my choice to switch to Mac. I now have solid computer systems manufactured by the same company that writes the software and compiles the drivers. Mac also has the best support in the industry.

I did switch my Adobe software to Mac Platform. This involved a phone call to Adobe verifying serial numbers, downloading and faxing a certificate of software destruction(agreeing to destroy the Windows based copy) and paying shipping charges for the Mac version of the Adobe software.
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« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2009, 12:21:11 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
You don't have the option of running Mac OS on a PC.

Not true. You just don't have the option of running Mac OS on a PC without violating Apple's EULA. I have OSX running on three PCs, including one $218 netbook, where's it's really fun. All of them triple boot with Windows 7 and Ubuntu.

But it's not easy to do unless you're pretty skilled in both Windows and OSX, and you're willing to do some research. I don't do anything particularly productive with OSX on them, other than using the netbook for photo file transfer and backup with Lightroom in the field. I did it more as a learning and OS comparison experiment than anything else.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2009, 12:26:30 PM »
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Again, something from my personal experience... when I bought iMac in 2005 (based on a PowerPC chip), I knew rather well the downside of the all-in-one packages: difficult (or impossible) to upgrade and/or self-repair. So, when the unit broke down (hardware-wise), I took it to the Apple store and they told me this: "Ok, we would need to replace a part, but it might take a week and we do not want to leave you without a computer for so long... how about we give you a brand new unit instead, based on an Intel chip this time?". So I walked in with a broken unit and walked out with a brand new, next-generation one. Now, how cool is that? I realize it does not happen all the time and to all people, but it did happen to me.
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