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Author Topic: I'm gettin' One of those "Wide Gamut" LCDs  (Read 29765 times)
fike
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« on: December 13, 2009, 02:27:02 PM »
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So I have ordered a Dell U2410.  It is the one that claims 96% of the Adobe RGB color gamut.  It also claims to come calibrated from the factory.  I am trying to figure out what that means, exactly.  I haven't seen much difference in the calibration of my current smaller Dell LCD. I understand that LCD calibration is less critical because they have less color variability than CRTs had.  

So, should I just use the standard Adobe RGB color profile and trust that the display is calibrated from the factory.  (I have an Eye One Display 2.)  I have never gotten through the calibration of my current Dell LCD without the calibration software telling me I am way out of spec, but nothing has been able to bring it within spec.  I think I have been working with the wrong gamma settings in the software, but it really hasn't been critical to me and I haven't had the patience to work it through.  I always use paper profiles, some of them custom.  

Any advice, suggestions?
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 02:30:46 PM »
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If it's not critical to you and you don't have the patience to do some reading and learning, my advice would be "don't bother".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 04:02:51 PM »
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Quote from: fike
So I have ordered a Dell U2410.  It is the one that claims 96% of the Adobe RGB color gamut.  It also claims to come calibrated from the factory.  I am trying to figure out what that means, exactly.  I haven't seen much difference in the calibration of my current smaller Dell LCD. I understand that LCD calibration is less critical because they have less color variability than CRTs had.  

So, should I just use the standard Adobe RGB color profile and trust that the display is calibrated from the factory.  (I have an Eye One Display 2.)  I have never gotten through the calibration of my current Dell LCD without the calibration software telling me I am way out of spec, but nothing has been able to bring it within spec.  I think I have been working with the wrong gamma settings in the software, but it really hasn't been critical to me and I haven't had the patience to work it through.  I always use paper profiles, some of them custom.  

Any advice, suggestions?

Mark, I am using a wide gamut Samsung XL24 LED illuminated LCD. And, FWIW, it is a real joy to be able to really calibrate this monitor. I use Eye-One Pro but I think the software is pretty much the same with the Eye-One 2 monitor calibrator. The gamut of this monitor is 120% of the NTSC standard. Believe me if you can use two monitors and view the same image on both, you will see a dramatic difference.

I would never accept a "canned" monitor calibration. Regardless of the illumination type, it will change over time.  if you are a serious printer, you have to caibrate.

Don
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 04:31:07 PM »
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Don, if you are commenting on my response, yes of course you are technically spot-on, but the gist of my intervention was more related to a state of mind rather than technique, insofar as the former influences how one approaches the latter.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 09:39:44 PM »
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Quote from: DonCone
Mark, I am using a wide gamut Samsung XL24 LED illuminated LCD. And, FWIW, it is a real joy to be able to really calibrate this monitor. I use Eye-One Pro but I think the software is pretty much the same with the Eye-One 2 monitor calibrator. The gamut of this monitor is 120% of the NTSC standard. Believe me if you can use two monitors and view the same image on both, you will see a dramatic difference.

I would never accept a "canned" monitor calibration. Regardless of the illumination type, it will change over time.  if you are a serious printer, you have to caibrate.

Don

Thanks Don,  That is what I was looking for.  I don't have a plethora of displays around to compare.  When I was using a CRT, I noticed a substantial variability.  I didn't know if these new wider gamut LCDs would have similar range of calibration, unlike my older LCD.  I guess I will need to do some experimenting.  I will be keeping the older LCD around as a tools display, but it will give me a good comparison.
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 09:46:33 PM »
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Quote from: MarkDS
If it's not critical to you and you don't have the patience to do some reading and learning, my advice would be "don't bother".

Hi MarkDS,
it is hard not to take that response as a bit condescending. Try not to assume everyone who questions the value of calibration to a gnats @ss is inexperienced and lacking in knowledge.

I am interested in precision, and I have done a significant amount with calibration of my old CRT, but with my current LCD, I haven't seen the benefit I saw with CRT.  I have been wondering whether with better factory calibration of hardware if the monitor calibration puck will be going the way of the light meter as a quaint but mostly obsolete relic of a bygone era?  (I know the obsolescence of light meters is a controversial issue, so lets not get into that one here.)

thanks,


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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 10:05:34 PM »
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No, not a matter of condescending. Put yourself in your readers' shoes. You are asking people to take the time to give you advice when you yourself say the subject matter isn't that critical and you don't have the patience to work through the issues. If you are now saying what you meant is that you were wondering whether calibration and profiling is objectively important with the equipment you have, that is a different and legitimate concern and I agree with Don Cone's response.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 11:17:59 PM »
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Hi Fike,

I have also reacted to Mark's comment and tried to write a response, but it's not easy. You give very little detail about the problem you have. There are a couple of issues with LCD:s.

1) Almost all are to bright, this is a big problem making prints looking dark.
2) Color temperature should be set to arounf 6500 K
3) Regarding Wide color gamut there used to be settings for different gamuts, possibly not easy to find
4) If you don't use sRGB you probably need to understand quite a few thing about CM.  sRGB is often used as a workaround for not having CM,

Finally, I know that you make good pictures and they are certainly worth some effort learning color management.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: fike
Hi MarkDS,
it is hard not to take that response as a bit condescending. Try not to assume everyone who questions the value of calibration to a gnats @ss is inexperienced and lacking in knowledge.

I am interested in precision, and I have done a significant amount with calibration of my old CRT, but with my current LCD, I haven't seen the benefit I saw with CRT.  I have been wondering whether with better factory calibration of hardware if the monitor calibration puck will be going the way of the light meter as a quaint but mostly obsolete relic of a bygone era?  (I know the obsolescence of light meters is a controversial issue, so lets not get into that one here.)

thanks,
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tived
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 03:20:16 AM »
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Quote from: fike
So I have ordered a Dell U2410.  It is the one that claims 96% of the Adobe RGB color gamut.  It also claims to come calibrated from the factory.  I am trying to figure out what that means, exactly.  I haven't seen much difference in the calibration of my current smaller Dell LCD. I understand that LCD calibration is less critical because they have less color variability than CRTs had.  

So, should I just use the standard Adobe RGB color profile and trust that the display is calibrated from the factory.  (I have an Eye One Display 2.)  I have never gotten through the calibration of my current Dell LCD without the calibration software telling me I am way out of spec, but nothing has been able to bring it within spec.  I think I have been working with the wrong gamma settings in the software, but it really hasn't been critical to me and I haven't had the patience to work it through.  I always use paper profiles, some of them custom.  

Any advice, suggestions?

Fike,

I think you need to go do your homework, IMHO the DELL is in the bottom of the WG screens. Your issues with calibrating may have to do with the settings you are trying to apply. There is much to learn and know here. Maybe you can give us all a bit more information.

I hope you find what you are looking for

Happy snapping

Henrik
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 07:09:08 AM »
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Quote from: fike
Any advice, suggestions?
Calibrate in a REALLY dark room - or with a towel over the monitor when you do it.  I've found that to be key to getting a good result with my wide gamut LCD.

I found my wide gamut monitor to be VERY sensitive to ambient light when calibrating - far more so than my laptops or other LCDs.  

For my setup, the difference between a profile created in the right conditions and one with even just a bit of stray ambient light is HUGE.

Then, when you are done ... download a trial of Gamutvision and compare your paper profile and your new monitor profile and your old monitor profile and some color spaces like Adobe and PhotoPro and sRGB ... see this stuff, it helps.
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fike
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 07:27:12 AM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi Fike,

I have also reacted to Mark's comment and tried to write a response, but it's not easy. You give very little detail about the problem you have. There are a couple of issues with LCD:s.

1) Almost all are to bright, this is a big problem making prints looking dark.
2) Color temperature should be set to arounf 6500 K
3) Regarding Wide color gamut there used to be settings for different gamuts, possibly not easy to find
4) If you don't use sRGB you probably need to understand quite a few thing about CM.  sRGB is often used as a workaround for not having CM,

Finally, I know that you make good pictures and they are certainly worth some effort learning color management.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for the advice, Erik.  I have had trouble getting through the contrast settings in the Eye One Match 3 calibration routine.  It would always tell me it was way out of spec.  So, after getting frustrated that I couldn't bring it into the acceptable range with the monitor menus, I would just skip ahead and calibrate anyway.  Your suggestion of using 6500K got me through that step.  Yippee!  The new profile is slightly different, enough to notice and care about.  

I shoot Adobe RGB, so I calibrate to that target.  

Some have mentioned that there are other better options than the Dell, but I have been pretty happy with the Dell LCD I have now, and the prices of the higher-end 24" devices are really in a different strata.  The H-IPS U2410 LCD monitor arrives later this week, I'll need to report back on how I like it.  It will also be interesting to compare it to the 3-year old Dell 20" LCD that was considered a bargain photo-worthy display at the time (sharing the LG LCD display with the apple of the same size).
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 07:32:49 AM »
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Hi,

One thing to consider is that your screen should not be too bright. If you measure a white area on your screen and a white paper on your wall they should have similar brightness. A screen that is too bright cause you to print dark.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: fike
Thanks for the advice, Erik.  I have had trouble getting through the contrast settings in the Eye One Match 3 calibration routine.  It would always tell me it was way out of spec.  So, after getting frustrated that I couldn't bring it into the acceptable range with the monitor menus, I would just skip ahead and calibrate anyway.  Your suggestion of using 6500K got me through that step.  Yippee!  The new profile is slightly different, enough to notice and care about.  

I shoot Adobe RGB, so I calibrate to that target.  

Some have mentioned that there are other better options than the Dell, but I have been pretty happy with the Dell LCD I have now, and the prices of the higher-end 24" devices are really in a different strata.  The H-IPS U2410 LCD monitor arrives later this week, I'll need to report back on how I like it.  It will also be interesting to compare it to the 3-year old Dell 20" LCD that was considered a bargain photo-worthy display at the time (sharing the LG LCD display with the apple of the same size).
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 07:56:10 AM »
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Quote from: fike
I shoot Adobe RGB, so I calibrate to that target.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean ... you shoot RAW, right?

'AdobeRGB' shouldn't enter into the monitor calibration equation except as a point of reference.
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fike
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 08:28:42 AM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean ... you shoot RAW, right?

'AdobeRGB' shouldn't enter into the monitor calibration equation except as a point of reference.

Yes, I guess you would be correct.  It was important when I used to shoot jpg and Adobe RGB, but in the case of RAW, it is only the monitor reference that truly use Adobe RGB.  

Good Point!
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 08:44:40 AM »
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It also claims to come calibrated from the factory.

Calibrated to what? Its kind of ridiculous claim at least taken at the face value provided.
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2009, 08:52:34 AM »
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Calibrated to what? Its kind of ridiculous claim at least taken at the face value provided.

They claim it is calibrated to adobe RGB. Reviewers say it isn't really that great, but for better or worse, here is a description.  http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/conten...410.htm#factory
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2009, 09:12:44 AM »
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Quote from: fike
They claim it is calibrated to adobe RGB. Reviewers say it isn't really that great, but for better or worse, here is a description.  http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/conten...410.htm#factory

They say “The Dell U2410 comes factory calibrated to some extent“ which again, is a ridiculous comment (enough to bypass a sale IMHO). And no, its not “calibrated” to Adobe RGB (1998) which alone is meaningless and like every other CCFL wide gamut, it can’t hit sRGB with a profile I’ll bet.

Then they say something equally silly (“every unit is shipped incorporating pre-tuned sRGB and AdobeRGB settings and with an average DeltaE of <5“) but don’t tell us which formula is used (again, sloppy and apparently written by a marketing person with little understanding of what they just wrote). And that deltaE is in the center? The corners (which are always worse).

But wait, this is a review! Its not from Dell. It should be dismissed at this point alone.
 
Quote
The Dell U2410 features a dynamic contrast ratio (DCR) control, which boasts a spec of 80,000:1.

Great, and my print is what, 250:1? That makes soft proofing a bit difficult.
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2009, 09:49:09 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
They say “The Dell U2410 comes factory calibrated to some extent“ which again, is a ridiculous comment (enough to bypass a sale IMHO). And no, its not “calibrated” to Adobe RGB (1998) which alone is meaningless and like every other CCFL wide gamut, it can’t hit sRGB with a profile I’ll bet.

Then they say something equally silly (“every unit is shipped incorporating pre-tuned sRGB and AdobeRGB settings and with an average DeltaE of <5“) but don’t tell us which formula is used (again, sloppy and apparently written by a marketing person with little understanding of what they just wrote). And that deltaE is in the center? The corners (which are always worse).

But wait, this is a review! Its not from Dell. It should be dismissed at this point alone.
 


Great, and my print is what, 250:1? That makes soft proofing a bit difficult.

Obviously the Dell marketing people got a little excitable on this one, but if you read further in the review you will see that they do debunk this absurd claim, albeit in a considerate and non-inflammatory way.

[blockquote]While the DCR obviously worked to some extent, I've no idea where Dell got the figure of 80,000:1 from! ... I don't know where Dell picked this spec from?![/blockquote]

in the conclusion:
[blockquote]The dynamic contrast ratio was nowhere near reaching its supposed specification...[/blockquote]

As the review points out, the LCD color accuracy is good with custom, at home, calibration, even if the Adobe RGB and sRGB presets are substandard.  

So after asking the question here about the necessity of LCD calibration, I have read what people have to say and some more reviews and the consensus is that, particularly with the more economically priced 24" displays, calibration does result in substantial improvements in color accuracy and consistency.  

It's too bad that they don't have better factory calibration.  If factory calibration were done well, I can see them obsoleting calibration equipment.  I wonder if the manufacturers are under any pressure to improve their calibration quality.  Sometimes early in product development and manufacturing cycle they are still making improvements to quality and yield.  I'm not going to hold out too much hope that this will be the case here.
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 09:58:15 AM »
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Quote from: fike
It's too bad that they don't have better factory calibration.  If factory calibration were done well, I can see them obsoleting calibration equipment.  I wonder if the manufacturers are under any pressure to improve their calibration quality.  Sometimes early in product development and manufacturing cycle they are still making improvements to quality and yield.  I'm not going to hold out too much hope that this will be the case here.

Calibrating and profiling your display depends very much on the ambient conditions in which you are using it, and also to some extent on the media to which you will be out-putting. This cannot be done in a factory. I highly recommend, if you have not done so already, that you borrow or acquire a decent book on colour management - it will really help you going forward. Andrew Rodney's Color Management for Photographers is excellent. Options would be Tim Grey's Color Confidence (less depth but good introductory volume) and Real World Color Management by Fraser, Murphy and Bunting - good on the basics with relatively heavier emphasis on material of interest to pre-press. One doesn't need to become an expert in colour management, but more reading and research at least points you in the direction of knowing what questions to ask, what answers and information you receive makes sense, etc.
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 12:03:20 PM »
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Perhaps in the factory they are simply measuring the primaries and burning a mean deviation correction into the firmware at the factory. Doesn't say much about making the monitor correlate to Adobe RGB but it is at least a quality control that should help with inter device agreement, thus canned profiles as random as they can be on different video card's output>
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