Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: ProPhotoRGB in JPEG  (Read 6109 times)
Wayne Fox
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2886



WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2009, 02:49:30 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: bproctor
Thanks for everyone's advice.  I put my printers profile into ColorThink and compared it.

I'm pretty surprised at your results.  Where did you get the printers profiles?  I've never seen a comparison like this where silver halide could exceed sRGB to this degree.  Is this the "soft proof" profile WHCC refers to?

this is more typical of a Noritsu profile (solid) against sRGB (wireframe).

[attachment=18696:Noritsu_Profile.jpg]
Logged

Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1422



WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2009, 05:50:09 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I'm pretty surprised at your results.  Where did you get the printers profiles?  I've never seen a comparison like this where silver halide could exceed sRGB to this degree.  Is this the "soft proof" profile WHCC refers to?

this is more typical of a Noritsu profile (solid) against sRGB (wireframe).

[attachment=18696:Noritsu_Profile.jpg]

Noritsu treats everything as sRGB by default, so it cuts it's own gamut with sRGB. But maybe it's possible to turn off the sRGB-centric mode, so you can utilize the whole potential of the paper. I've profiled Koda Endura printed on KIS DKS 1750 minilab, where you could feed the machine with pure, untagged RGB, and the gamut exceeded sRGB in the same way as in the above shown example.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 05:51:02 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6977


WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2009, 08:26:24 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Wayne Fox
WHCC may be using profiles (it sounds like they are), but not in the conventional manner as we think of using profiles.  The printers are designed around an sRGB model.  It sounds like what they are doing is using profiles to adjust the files to compensate for the variations in the printers (a real problem with these type of printers).

WHCC operates on the premise you should adjust your monitor to match their output, and they will adjust their processes to maintain a consistent output across all devices.  This is why you have to submit 5 files to be printed ... then you adjust your monitor to match the resulting prints.  Sending them 8bit AdobeRGB or sRGB files should yield good results if you are willing to tweak your setup accordingly.

In my previous company we operated 180 locations with Noritsu processors.  We controlled the entire process so our method was to tweak the files at capture for the output device.  Works great until they send the file to the central lab for different product, where we had to tweak the files for that printer.  We didn't use profiles to do this, but certainly could have done it that way.

Interesting account of how that system works. It all sounds like the basic premises of colour management stood on its head.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Jonathan Wienke
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5759



WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2009, 08:45:25 AM »
ReplyReply

It's completely bass-ackwards, which is why I use other vendors that actually understand color management if I need something printed online.
Logged

digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9191



WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2009, 08:51:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The printers are designed around an sRGB model.

Considering there is no such thing as an sRGB printer... I think what you’re referring to is the silly half assed “color management” workflow for labs (not end users) where you funnel everything into sRGB and send to the lab, after which they do convert the data (they have to) to their printer’s native color space which isn’t sRGB to make it easier for them to crank out prints without a logical front end that handles multiple working spaces customers may wish to use or a true output profile customers could receive to convert the data and post edit as they desire.

The “send us sRGB” workflow was great in 1993, its pretty stupid, at least for those customers working with modern color management aware products today.

Quote
WHCC operates on the premise you should adjust your monitor to match their output...

Wow, like using Adobe Gamma. Kludge. Now thanks to WHCC, you’ve hosed your display calibration for all other software and output needs. So this is a pro lab or simply Walmart? Sounds like the later (which is great for people like my mom who don’t even have Adobe Elements and wouldn’t know an ICC profile from a pickle).

Quote
...and they will adjust their processes to maintain a consistent output across all devices.

IF all the devices really are calibrated and consistent, why would they be editing your files (do you want them to edit your files)? Point is, I bet dollars to donuts that if you sent out a series of color patches to all the devices, over the course of a week, the average deltaE would be fascinating to see. You suppose the average of sat 988 patches is below a deltaE 2000 of say 4? I wonder if WHCC would allow someone like me to test this.

Quote
This is why you have to submit 5 files to be printed ... then you adjust your monitor to match the resulting prints.

Ridiculous really. You adjust your monitor (apparently an LCD what has a single control over its physical behavior) how?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 08:52:06 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
bjanes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2825



« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 08:56:11 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I'm pretty surprised at your results.  Where did you get the printers profiles?  I've never seen a comparison like this where silver halide could exceed sRGB to this degree.  Is this the "soft proof" profile WHCC refers to?

this is more typical of a Noritsu profile (solid) against sRGB (wireframe).

Just for comparison, here is the profile for my local Costco that uses the Noritsu 34 Pro and Fuji Crystal Archive paper.  The gamut of the printer is considerably smaller than that of sRGB (first image below) and exceeds sRGB in only a small region in the higher luminance yellows (top view below).

[attachment=18698:sRGB_Noritsu_side.png]  [attachment=18699:sRGBvsNoritsuTop.png]

These 3D gamut plots are from GamutVision. My version of Colorthink does not work with 64 bit Windows 7    This gamut is relatively small compared to that obtained with current inkjet photo printers. The next consideration would be to examine the gamut of the images to be reproduced and compare this to the gamut of the printer. Portraits and other images that do not contain a lot of saturated colors would be fine for the Noritsu, but for shots of flowers with saturated colors, one might consider selecting a printer with a wider gamut.

Converting the ProPhoto images to sRGB and sending them to the printer would be relatively safe, but one would not have control over the rendering intent, which is always colorimetric with matrix spaces such as ProPhoto and sRGB. If one were to use the profile for the printer, perceptual rendering and soft proofing would be available.
Logged
bjanes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2825



« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2009, 08:59:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: MarkDS
Interesting account of how that system works. It all sounds like the basic premises of colour management stood on its head.
Yes, indeed. That arrangement is actually best for those who do not use color management but merely shoot sRGB JPEGs in their P&S cameras and then send them to the printer. For more sophisticated users, I think that the profile for the printer should be used.
Logged
Bradley Proctor
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 150



WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 10:25:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I'm pretty surprised at your results.  Where did you get the printers profiles?  I've never seen a comparison like this where silver halide could exceed sRGB to this degree.  Is this the "soft proof" profile WHCC refers to?

this is more typical of a Noritsu profile (solid) against sRGB (wireframe).

[attachment=18696:Noritsu_Profile.jpg]

Yes, I used the profile that they provide for soft proofing.
Logged

Bradley Proctor
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 150



WWW
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 10:35:22 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
It's completely bass-ackwards, which is why I use other vendors that actually understand color management if I need something printed online.

I'd love to do my own inkjet printing but can't justify the cost with as few prints as I make (couldn't afford it if I wanted to).

Is there an online service you could recommend?
Logged

digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9191



WWW
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 10:55:29 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: bproctor
Is there an online service you could recommend?

Been awhile since I’ve had anything printed (I do my own) but check out www.pictopia.com
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
dmerger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 686


« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2009, 11:17:49 AM »
ReplyReply

The gamma plots are very interesting.  Does anyone have similar gamma plots for the Durst Theta 76 printers?

Logged

Dean Erger
pherold
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 133


« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2009, 12:36:23 PM »
ReplyReply

You know Bradley - as long as you have ColorThink, you can make this determination on an image-by-image basis by bringing your actual image file into the 3D grapher along with your profiles.  The actual pixels of the image will be graphed right with the profile gamuts and you can see if your images need to use ProPhoto as a working space or if you can get away with AdobeRGB.  Oh, and if you're using ColorThink Pro, don't forget to downsample the image before bringing it into the grapher.  (It can take quite a while to graph all those pixels otherwise.)
Logged

-Patrick Herold
  Tech Support
www.chromix.com
Wayne Fox
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2886



WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2009, 01:35:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: MarkDS
Interesting account of how that system works. It all sounds like the basic premises of colour management stood on its head.
When this technology was developed, color management as we use it wasn't nearly as common place, especially in the photographic industry at that time.  There was no effort to use color management systems.

Quote from: digitaldog
The “send us sRGB” workflow was great in 1993, its pretty stupid, at least for those customers working with modern color management aware products today.

Wow, like using Adobe Gamma. Kludge. Now thanks to WHCC, you’ve hosed your display calibration for all other software and output needs. So this is a pro lab or simply Walmart? Sounds like the later (which is great for people like my mom who don’t even have Adobe Elements and wouldn’t know an ICC profile from a pickle).
Actually until recently almost all images submitted to labs like WHCC, mPix, Millers, etc. were in camera jpeg files.  Even today, most of the photographers doing portrait and wedding work have no real clue about color management and don't have calibrated monitors.  If you are using a calibrated monitor, you most likely will get a pretty decent match.

This is changing, with more photographers becoming aware of color management tools because of the ongoing education from people such as yourself as well as the wide adoption of LR>

Quote from: bproctor
I'd love to do my own inkjet printing but can't justify the cost with as few prints as I make (couldn't afford it if I wanted to).

Is there an online service you could recommend?

Actually, WHCC is one of the most progressive labs in this regards.  Understand that the technology behind these printers is well over a decade old.  They were designed when shooting raw was pretty much unheard of.  When they were developed virtually all of the images printed on them were from scanned film, not from digital files. It was a process film, scan film, print scanned film model.  If you wanted reprints you brought in the negative, they scanned this.  It was virtually a closed loop system.  In 1999, Noritsu sent a team of engineers to one of our digital studios in S. Cal. where we met with them and got them to design a simple hot folder front end to one of their processors, until then there wasn't a good way to even submit digital files from a camera and you couldn't buy the printer without the scanner front end.

At this point the good labs are beginning to make changes to incorporate color management tools into their workflows.  I believe for the most part this is from third party developers, not from the manufacturers.  WHCC is one of those labs.

Also, I believe you'll find if you have a well calibrated device, your resulting prints will be satisfactory.  A friend here at work just received his 5 sample 8x10's from both mPix and WHCC, mostly portrait work, and we felt both labs prints were decent matches to his display and quite acceptable. Later today I'm going to have him download the soft proof profile and we'll take a look at that ... has me curious.  WHCC assumes most of their customers don't have a calibrated display, thus the recommendation to match the display to the prints, but this doesn't mean the prints won't be a decent match to a calibrated display.
Logged

Pages: « 1 [2]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad