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Author Topic: PRinting problem  (Read 18374 times)
mdijb
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« on: December 17, 2009, 05:40:12 PM »
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I am Using OSX10.6, CS4, and printing on a epson 7600.  I downloaded and installed the driver for Snow leopard.  I made a new profile on Innova Fibaprint ultrasmooth matte paper.  I read the post elsewhere about printing out the targets with snow leopard and the targets look Ok.  I printed out one image with the new profile and the results were good and i was able to make some tweaks and print other versions.  THen something happened.  I printed out a new image on the same paper ant the result was ugly.  The test prints were very dark and excessively contrasty.  Viewing image on the monitor using the correct profile to soft proof, the image looked good but the output bears no relationship to what is on the the screen--not even close.  This is unusual behavior.  Do I have a color management problems?

I tried printing with my usual paper and profile and the result was ugly also.

Help!

MDIJB
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 06:06:00 PM by mdijb » Logged

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Ray Maxwell
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 12:21:14 PM »
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I believe you are having the same problem as I am with the Epson Stylus Pro 4000.  It uses the same ink set at the 7600.  While you may be using the latest driver from Epson, I don't think it is really compatible with Snow Leopard.  I have not been able to find any driver other than very expensive RIPs that will work with Snow Leopard.  I have an old computer (Mac Dual G4 500) running Tiger with CS2 that I now use to print all of my output.  I just share the hard disk that has the final PSD file from my new Mac Pro computer.  I would rather print from the new computer, but have not found a way to do it since I upgraded to Snow Leopard.

We all know that the printer companies make the most money by selling ink.  I find it interesting that you can still buy ink sets from these companies, but they have decided to stop writing new drivers for these older printers.  If they want to keep selling the ink sets, they should support these wide format professional printers more than four years.

Ray Maxwell
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 02:21:27 PM »
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Quote from: Ray Maxwell
I believe you are having the same problem as I am with the Epson Stylus Pro 4000.  It uses the same ink set at the 7600.  While you may be using the latest driver from Epson, I don't think it is really compatible with Snow Leopard.  I have not been able to find any driver other than very expensive RIPs that will work with Snow Leopard.  I have an old computer (Mac Dual G4 500) running Tiger with CS2 that I now use to print all of my output.  I just share the hard disk that has the final PSD file from my new Mac Pro computer.  I would rather print from the new computer, but have not found a way to do it since I upgraded to Snow Leopard.

We all know that the printer companies make the most money by selling ink.  I find it interesting that you can still buy ink sets from these companies, but they have decided to stop writing new drivers for these older printers.  If they want to keep selling the ink sets, they should support these wide format professional printers more than four years.

Ray Maxwell

You can always use the ColorSync Utility Workaround to get around your double profiling problem. If it is going to force you to double profiling force it to do it with the same profile, so guess what, no changes can be made by ColorSync using the same profile.

Doyle
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mdijb
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 06:34:12 PM »
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Quote from: DYP
You can always use the ColorSync Utility Workaround to get around your double profiling problem. If it is going to force you to double profiling force it to do it with the same profile, so guess what, no changes can be made by ColorSync using the same profile.

Doyle


What is the Work around you described?  Where can I read about this?  Is double profiling my problem?  Of interest, printed again using the profile supplied by Innova and the same ugly result occurs.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 07:21:54 PM »
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Quote from: mdijb
What is the Work around you described?  Where can I read about this?  Is double profiling my problem?  Of interest, printed again using the profile supplied by Innova and the same ugly result occurs.

First off check in the ColorSync Utility to see if the printer and the media (some) is listed there. If so they have listed a default profile with each media listed. If you can print correctly with the default epson profiles that are associated with media you choose in the driver but not with custom profiles then you are getting double profiling. If you want to print with custom profiles go into the ColorSync Utility and set the same paper profile you are choosing in the application for one of the media settings (the one you choose in the driver) in the Colorsync Utility.

Here is some links that describes this.
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/lr_13_pri...troom_print.htm
http://forums.adobe.com/message/1466962?tstart=0
http://cwaynefox.com/Printing/Entries/2009...nc_profile.html

Doyle
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mdijb
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 08:58:35 PM »
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Thanks for the links above.  I cannot place my custom profile in the location described, but I can direct the Color synch utility to where they are, in a different location.  The print results are still not right.

When I use to Color synch utility, first aid to verify the profiles,  all the epson profiles have this message---"tag dmnd:  Tag size is not correct"  and they cannot be repaired--is this a problem?

This is very confusing stuff, but I think I am doing it as described.  

Epson told me the new driver for 7600 in SNow leopard wiil be released in January, the 10.5 driver v3.09 I downloaded for 10.5 does not seem to work with this work around.
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David Saffir
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 02:24:08 PM »
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a quick thought for you - it sometimes happens that for mysterious reasons one or more color profiles become corrupted. ColorSync has a utility that will find and fix sick profiles, if I remember correctly. It is called "Profile First Aid"

Another option is to go to the Print/Fax icon in System Preferences, delete the printer, printer driver, and profiles and re-install fresh. Then restart the computer and printer and see what you get.

I realize you may have done all this already, but it has worked for me more than once. Probably a slim chance.

BTW, my customers are telling me that they have issues with Epson/Snow Leopard, less so from the HP and Canon folk.

hope this helps

David Saffir
http://davidsaffir.wordpress.com
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 04:30:49 PM »
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Quote from: mdijb
Thanks for the links above.  I cannot place my custom profile in the location described, but I can direct the Color synch utility to where they are, in a different location.  The print results are still not right.

When I use to Color synch utility, first aid to verify the profiles,  all the epson profiles have this message---"tag dmnd:  Tag size is not correct"  and they cannot be repaired--is this a problem?

This is very confusing stuff, but I think I am doing it as described.  

Epson told me the new driver for 7600 in SNow leopard wiil be released in January, the 10.5 driver v3.09 I downloaded for 10.5 does not seem to work with this work around.
I wrote one of those linked articles, and things have changed.  Since Snow Leopard the "manufacturers default profile" is not the same as before, but it isn't consistent.  For example, for the 3800 the new default is some odd paper type I haven't even deciphered.  If  you follow the steps to change it, the "blue dot" actually doesn't appear next to any profile as it did under Leopard.

I have been trying to understand the changes and what might be causing problems.  Currently I think part of the problem is related to devices that are not correctly registered with ColorSync.  I believe this also might make it challenging to use the ColorSync work around.  I'm not sure this will resolve problems with the 7600 or 4000 printers, but to ensure the OS printing system is clean you may want to try the steps in this article.  
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mdijb
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 05:02:02 PM »
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Thanks for your suggestion.  I did remove and reinstalll the OSX 10.5 driver because that is all that is available until the new driver for 10.6 is released in January.  The only profiles that show up are the 7600 profiles.  This is a new computer so little garbage has accumulated.

MDIJB
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mdijb
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 04:26:36 PM »
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A colleague suggested another solution which involved printing out calibration target directly from EYE software and bypassing photoshop all together.  the Target does look different when dong so and the profiles looks very different when softprooofing on the monitor.  However the resulting print still looks terrible.  Event printing an old image with the old profile results in a terrible print.

Something has changed on OSX 10.6 and no one seems to have a fix.  I can only hope the new Driver for the 7600 fixes this problem.

Think outside the box--Anyone have any ideas??

MDIJB
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 01:08:53 PM »
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Quote from: mdijb
A colleague suggested another solution which involved printing out calibration target directly from EYE software and bypassing photoshop all together.  the Target does look different when dong so and the profiles looks very different when softprooofing on the monitor.  However the resulting print still looks terrible.  Event printing an old image with the old profile results in a terrible print.

Something has changed on OSX 10.6 and no one seems to have a fix.  I can only hope the new Driver for the 7600 fixes this problem.

Think outside the box--Anyone have any ideas??

MDIJB

Sorry.  I'm not even sure where I can find a 9600 printer to try and test thing.  I'm actually quite surprised Epson is willing to update the drivers.  This printer was end-of-lifed several years ago.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 01:19:04 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
Sorry.  I'm not even sure where I can find a 9600 printer to try and test thing.  I'm actually quite surprised Epson is willing to update the drivers.  This printer was end-of-lifed several years ago.

I have been profiling a 9600 today from SL. It seems to print correctly with any application that uses the old printing path. I could make a good profile printing a target from Indesign CS4 with CM turned off and CM off in the driver and creating the profile in Profilemaker Pro. It is a no go (colorwise) as far as any application that uses the new printing path including having printer manages color.

If there is anything you would like me to test let me know.

Doyle

PS: I should add that, that is with 10.6.2 which has finally fixed the monitor profile being introduced into the RGB printflow from IDCS3 and IDCS4.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 01:21:02 PM by DYP » Logged
DonCone
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2009, 10:11:15 AM »
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Quote from: mdijb
A colleague suggested another solution which involved printing out calibration target directly from EYE software and bypassing photoshop all together.  the Target does look different when dong so and the profiles looks very different when softprooofing on the monitor.  However the resulting print still looks terrible.  Event printing an old image with the old profile results in a terrible print.

Something has changed on OSX 10.6 and no one seems to have a fix.  I can only hope the new Driver for the 7600 fixes this problem.

Think outside the box--Anyone have any ideas??

MDIJB

Have you tried printing an old file from your laptop with an old profile? If not, you really won't know if the problem is SL or the printer. Since you still have Tiger on the laptop it should print normally and not involve the new print path. Printing from Eye-One Match would allow you to bypass Colorsync in SL  but the current 7600 driver does not have a "Color Matching" option to select "Colorsync" or "Epson controls color" as the latest drivers do. But if the system worked under Tiger before it should work now with the laptop.

Since Doyle has just profiled a 9600 he is probably the guy who can tell you how to configure the driver for the 7600. Printing form Eye-One Match application should be no different than using InDesign or Preview - it just sends the untagged file directly to the printer driver.

Don


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mdijb
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2009, 09:21:00 PM »
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Quote from: DonCone
Have you tried printing an old file from your laptop with an old profile? If not, you really won't know if the problem is SL or the printer. Since you still have Tiger on the laptop it should print normally and not involve the new print path. Printing from Eye-One Match would allow you to bypass Colorsync in SL  but the current 7600 driver does not have a "Color Matching" option to select "Colorsync" or "Epson controls color" as the latest drivers do. But if the system worked under Tiger before it should work now with the laptop.

Since Doyle has just profiled a 9600 he is probably the guy who can tell you how to configure the driver for the 7600. Printing form Eye-One Match application should be no different than using InDesign or Preview - it just sends the untagged file directly to the printer driver.

Don


I printed out the same image from my laptop running OS TIger  10.4.11  using the profile I made printing the target from Eye 1 directly, and the profile the paper maker supplied and each image has correct color, although the contrast is not right--but this is what I expect.  all images need some tweaking but at least the the starting point is close to what I see on my monitor.  I think this at least removes my printer as the source of the problem and places the source on Snow leopard.

I see others out there are having problems also--any solutions??

mdijb
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DonCone
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2009, 09:29:49 AM »
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Quote from: mdijb
I printed out the same image from my laptop running OS TIger  10.4.11  using the profile I made printing the target from Eye 1 directly, and the profile the paper maker supplied and each image has correct color, although the contrast is not right--but this is what I expect.  all images need some tweaking but at least the the starting point is close to what I see on my monitor.  I think this at least removes my printer as the source of the problem and places the source on Snow leopard.

I see others out there are having problems also--any solutions??

mdijb

I wonder if Doyle could check the driver for the 9600 that he made successful profiles on and see if "Color Matching" is available in the Epson print dialog. From what you told me, it was not in the driver you are using. "Color Matching" is the switch that sends the data to Colorsync or directly to the Epson driver. It sounds like the target you printed produced a profile that was close when you printed from the laptop with Tiger and is garbage when printed from Snow Leopard. That target was printed on the Mac Pro with Snow Leopard and seems to have produced a valid profile. So what is different? It's the driver - it does not have the Colorsync/Epson controls color switch. I have a feeling that the data even when the profile is selected in CS4 and CS4 wants to send it to Colorsync to apply the profile the data is going directly to the printer and not being color managed.

Don
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 10:56:46 AM »
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Quote from: DonCone
I wonder if Doyle could check the driver for the 9600 that he made successful profiles on and see if "Color Matching" is available in the Epson print dialog. From what you told me, it was not in the driver you are using. "Color Matching" is the switch that sends the data to Colorsync or directly to the Epson driver. It sounds like the target you printed produced a profile that was close when you printed from the laptop with Tiger and is garbage when printed from Snow Leopard. That target was printed on the Mac Pro with Snow Leopard and seems to have produced a valid profile. So what is different? It's the driver - it does not have the Colorsync/Epson controls color switch. I have a feeling that the data even when the profile is selected in CS4 and CS4 wants to send it to Colorsync to apply the profile the data is going directly to the printer and not being color managed.

Don

The driver will work ok in SL with applications that use the old path. PSCS4 and LR which use the new printing path will not print correctly no matter what you do. No the 9600 driver does not have Color Matching controls. Again the profiles I made were with Indesign which uses the old path and prints correctly. I did try that profile with image ImageNest and got a lighter print than ID but PSCS4 and LR print way darker and more contrasty. I am not sure what the deal is with ImageNest. Preview also prints darker and more contrasty.

The ColorSync Utility workaround does not work with SN but if I remember correctly it did work with Leopard.

I did not try to make a profile with Eye-one Match (I can try that if someone wants but it will not help in printing from PSCS4) just ProfileMaker Pro.

Doyle
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DonCone
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2009, 10:58:17 PM »
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Quote from: DYP
The driver will work ok in SL with applications that use the old path. PSCS4 and LR which use the new printing path will not print correctly no matter what you do. No the 9600 driver does not have Color Matching controls. Again the profiles I made were with Indesign which uses the old path and prints correctly. I did try that profile with image ImageNest and got a lighter print than ID but PSCS4 and LR print way darker and more contrasty. I am not sure what the deal is with ImageNest. Preview also prints darker and more contrasty.

The ColorSync Utility workaround does not work with SN but if I remember correctly it did work with Leopard.

I did not try to make a profile with Eye-one Match (I can try that if someone wants but it will not help in printing from PSCS4) just ProfileMaker Pro.

Doyle

Thanks Doyle. I think you confirmed what has been going on. You have been right from the beginning - "It's the driver stupid". mdijb printed a target and made a profile from SL on the 7600 with Eye-One Match that is OK when used to print from his laptop with Tiger but is bad when printed on the Mac Pro with SL.

From what I have been able to gather, it would seem that printing from SN with CS4 using a valid profile and an older Epson driver (non-SL) results in a print that is NOT color managed.

Apple posted a new package of Epson printer drivers on December 15th however the 7600 was not updated. Some of the older printers were updated like the 1280.

Don
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2009, 06:36:48 AM »
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Quote from: DonCone
From what I have been able to gather, it would seem that printing from SN with CS4 using a valid profile and an older Epson driver (non-SL) results in a print that is NOT color managed.

Don

I is not that it is NOT color managed it is more like Double color managed.

Which brings up an idea that I have yet to test, but here is what I was thinking of trying. Convert to the printer profile in PSCS4 and then assign sRGB, AdobeRGB, or Generic RGB and then print with Printer Manages Color. The idea being that there is a profile applied in the driver by colorsync, but which one. Seems if we could know which one is being applied/converted by colorsync then sending a print with that assigned profile would negate any conversion that colorsync is doing.

Doyle

PS: Just did a preliminary test of this and it looks like Generic RGB is the one to assign. I must say I got a pretty good print. Now I think one should be able to assign Generic RGB to an unmanaged target and be able to print a correct profiling target from PSCS4 to the 3.09 7600 and 9600 driver in Snow Leopard.

Update: I did a test printing unmanaged targets from ID and from PS. The targets match if you assign sRGB in PS. They did not match with Generic RGB. Will read targets later, create a profile, test and report back.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 11:45:57 AM by DYP » Logged
Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2009, 04:51:16 PM »
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IT WORKED!

After profiling a target printed from Snow Leopard with PSCS4 assigning sRGB to the unmanaged profile target and setting Printer Manages Color and turning off CM in the 3.09 Epson 9600 driver, I got the exact same color correct printout from PSCS4 that uses the new printing path as I do from IDCS4 that uses the old printing path.

I it is pretty fair to assume that with the old none SL driver for the 7600 and 9600 when printing from PS through the new printing path, that colorsync is converting the output to sRGB. So if you convert the image in PS to the printer profile and then assign sRGB and then print using Printer Manages Color and turning off CM in the 3.09 Epson 9600 driver that you will get a correct color print. Since you cannot assign profiles in LR don't expect this to work when printing from LR.

Now the big question is, will this work with other print drivers that do not print correct color with SL. I have no way to know if all drivers that do not print correct color with SL using the new printing path have colorsync converting to sRGB. You could use my methodology to test various RGB profiles to try and find out what profile colorsync is using if sRGB does not work.

Doyle
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 05:45:16 PM »
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Quote from: DYP
IT WORKED!

After profiling a target printed from Snow Leopard with PSCS4 assigning sRGB to the unmanaged profile target and setting Printer Manages Color and turning off CM in the 3.09 Epson 9600 driver, I got the exact same color correct printout from PSCS4 that uses the new printing path as I do from IDCS4 that uses the old printing path.

Doyle

Doyle- could you publish screen shots of the various steps you took so that we might "duplicate" the process with the printer and driver we have?

Thanks in advance.

Dave
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