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Author Topic: Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only  (Read 43336 times)
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 07:59:05 PM »
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Quote from: bossanova808
The problem doesn't occur nearly as much with sheets and I am fairly sure the problem is not abotu ink delivery so much as it is about paper transport mechanisms.

We are also getting dropping out on the cyan channel (not block, the whole channel disappears, pretty sure there is not enough pressure/suction pulling the ink through).
You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?

I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well.  The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.

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bossanova808
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 08:23:55 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?

I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well.  The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.

Well I could be wrong    - but I have the sense they're two separate unrelated issues (backed by quite a bit of testing).  And varying the paper type (which I doubt has a lot to do with ink pressure) - changes the black banding issue significantly - also an Epson engineer described in detail what changing this paper type does with respect to paper feeding (and told me this was the first time the paper types have also adjusted paper feed tensions etc, the older 600s and 800s just changed ink laydown apparently).

So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another.  BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 02:39:22 AM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?

I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well.  The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.


If there has been no major change between the pressure system of the 11880 (and identical systems before that one) and the x900 then I do not see a relation between pressure on the ink feeding system and print quality flaws like described. The basics are as follows: an air pump keeps pressure on the air chambers around the ink pouches of all the carts, continuously, a signal from the buffer chamber on the head opens an ink valve in the printer near the cart slot for that channel, when the buffer is filled a signal goes back to close the valve. The pressure of the system is not helping the heads to squirt but only to feed enough ink to the buffer. What can go wrong is a valve doesn't open: cyan channel not loading, or a puncture of the air chamber or a leak at the cart connection that the pressure isn't high enough: the air pressure sensor gives an error warning. There could be a twilight situation (though I doubt that) where the lower air pressure isn't triggering the sensor and the ink flow on all channels is affected. That would create starvation in the print run, getting worse to the end of the print and image content dependent. It wouldn't affect black only. I personally think that Epson is at the edge of what they can control in printing, paper transport, ink limitation, dot distribution. The slightest changes in the conditions and subtle flaws like described appear. A friend with an 11880 has similar problems.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Farmer
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 04:35:14 AM »
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Quote from: bossanova808
Well I could be wrong    - but I have the sense they're two separate unrelated issues (backed by quite a bit of testing).  And varying the paper type (which I doubt has a lot to do with ink pressure) - changes the black banding issue significantly - also an Epson engineer described in detail what changing this paper type does with respect to paper feeding (and told me this was the first time the paper types have also adjusted paper feed tensions etc, the older 600s and 800s just changed ink laydown apparently).

So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another.  BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.

The driver has always adjusted the paper feed based on the paper type selected since the 7000/9000 let alone later models.

Tension prior to the *900 series was determined by the spindle - normal or high tension.  The *900 series has a motorised feed and the tension is altered according to the driver (or RIP) settings.

So the engineer either didn't tell you the whole story or you didn't understand.  Stepping and tension are not the same thing and whilst both play a role, stepping is by far the more important of the two.

What papers are you using, what settings are you using in the driver, what OS, and what app are you printing from?
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Mike Bailey
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 04:58:28 AM »
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For what it's worth, some years ago I had a banding problem with a new Epson 7600 I had bought.  The banding was parallel to the print head travel.  The printer came with the problem.  A number of days were spent attempting to resolve the problem and talking with Epson on the phone.  Finally Epson sent a technician since the new printer had the warranty of course.  After almost two full days of the technician's time, plus he ordered and replaced a number of parts - though not the print head - Epson gave up and replaced the printer with another 7600.  Apparently the cost of paying the technician and the parts had reached the point where it was cheaper to just replace the printer.

The second printer worked fine, no banding, as it should.  The cause of the banding problem was never resolved.  I don't know if this is particularly good news, but this is just a case of one way Epson decided to 'resolve' it after trying all their casebook solutions.

Mike

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stillekracht
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 05:31:45 AM »
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Quote from: bossanova808
So I am still fairly confident it's a transport thing but I am happy to be wrong...so long as a fix comes to light one way or another.  BTW we have a 7900 that exhibits the black banding issue as well, so it's obviously not that uncommon a problem - two 900 series printers, two for two problems.

It is definitely not a paperfeed tension or transport issue.
When you look at this page
and print the testfile as described you will understand that paperfeet-tension problems would be visible in the colors also.
Futhermore if it was a paperfeed-tension problem one would expect the wavelike patern to be more consitend in its appearance.

So remains inkpressure issues.
Only photo and matblack has, so to say, two dempers for one (printhead) channel.
The first "demper" beeing the switch damper.
Right behind this you find a "regular" demper.
( As I understand..., forgive me if I am wrong..., I am getting tired... )

When I start printing the testfile the first cm or so of the black is flawless...
When the whole black printhead channel is used in laying down ink the wavelike pattern appears.
At that time it looks like the inkflow is not sufficient enough to lay down enough ink.

Strange enough the inkpressure pump does not get a signal inkpressure is insufficient.
Is this maybe also the case when suddenly one cartridge color has disappeared? ( Nozzle check )

If there's a leak in the inkpressure system the inkpressurepump will start trying to lift the lack of pressure.
So it does get a signal ... but maybe not soon enough ... or the pressure is not sufficient enough.
Because the black has "two dempers" maybe thats just enough "obstruction" to frustrate the inkflow without triggering the pressurepump.

The pressure is okay. Only the black inkflow is not enough.

(excuse my english..)
Hartelijke groet van Matthijs

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stillekracht
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 05:43:16 AM »
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Quote from: Mike Bailey
The second printer worked fine, no banding, as it should.  The cause of the banding problem was never resolved.  I don't know if this is particularly good news, but this is just a case of one way Epson decided to 'resolve' it after trying all their casebook solutions.
Mike

They are almost ready to declare this 9900 in my studio DOA.
But this dossier first has to go to Epson HQ in France and Japan...
And I am not convinced a new one will be flawless...
As I am still believing this is a major flaw in design.

Hartelijke groet van Matthijs


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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 04:10:29 PM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
If there has been no major change between the pressure system of the 11880 (and identical systems before that one) and the x900 then I do not see a relation between pressure on the ink feeding system and print quality flaws like described.


Yes, but the if in your statement might apply.  I believe there has been a change in the pressure/ink delivery system and it very well might be the root cause of many of the missing nozzle issues.  I was told by a tech the 11880 had multiple pumps where as the 79/9900 used only 1.  Whether he actually knew what he as talking about I don't know and I haven't been able to confirm this with anyone.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 04:11:07 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 04:34:20 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
Yes, but the if in your statement might apply.  I believe there has been a change in the pressure/ink delivery system and it very well might be the root cause of many of the missing nozzle issues.  I was told by a tech the 11880 had multiple pumps where as the 79/9900 used only 1.  Whether he actually knew what he as talking about I don't know and I haven't been able to confirm this with anyone.

Wayne,

The 10000, 7800, 9800, 7880, 9880 have just one air pump. The problems appear with the 9900, 7900, 11880. Whether one of the three has more or less air pumps, all three show this problem. The 11880 has 3 air pressure pumps (service manual). I don't think there are 3 groups though as there is only one pressure sensor. Have to read the manual a bit better though.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 07:48:15 PM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Wayne,

The 10000, 7800, 9800, 7880, 9880 have just one air pump. The problems appear with the 9900, 7900, 11880. Whether one of the three has more or less air pumps, all three show this problem. The 11880 has 3 air pressure pumps (service manual). I don't think there are 3 groups though as there is only one pressure sensor. Have to read the manual a bit better though.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
I have 2 11880 printers running, one infrequently, and one used on a daily basis.  Neither have exhibited any problems similar to the 2 7900's I have experience with.
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2010, 04:57:24 PM »
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just one council : buy a Z3200 !

I "work" with a 9900 more than 6 month last year in my office,  epson come 5 time in that period to fix some trouble like you, they have changed the head, the pump, etc...it was always trouble, so at least I decided to buy a HP Z3200...and now I print everyday without troubles !

I understand your desapointment, really...
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JasonHopkins
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2010, 12:29:30 PM »
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I am still having this issue!

Only in the black channel and on all quality settings 4 and below (setting Q5 seems to be a fix), I have to buy some Epson stock to prove that it is not 3rd party paper issue before they will take the case any further.


Regarding the Cyan channel issue:

Having had my 9900 out of action for a whole month I went against the advice of Epson and performed a Power Clean for about 5 minutes and then opened the door to cancel the clean and rebooted the printer.

Since then I have not had any issue with the Cyan channel (touch wood) and have done a couple of hundred prints.

I am really unimpressed with Epson to the point that I may trade in for a HP at great expense and inconvenience.
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Picture Salon
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2010, 02:05:54 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
You have problem that is a known issue (losing entire cyan channel) which is directly related to ink pressure, yet your are sure the black problem has nothing to do with ink delivery?

I had the complete loss of cyan channel problem as well.  The repair of that problem has all but eliminated "clogs" ... I have only had 2 missing nozzles in the past several weeks.

I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule!  In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.

If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.

Thank you
Tom Crozier
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Tom Crozier

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Picture Salon
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2010, 02:08:12 PM »
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Quote from: stillekracht
Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only

First of all, apologies for my bad English.
I am from behind the dikes, you see.

Problem:
Clear banding (parallel with headmovement) in black only.
This is not caused by a headstrike or deflected nozzles.
As you can see: The banding is not nozzle related.
Difficult to believe this is software related since the banding is in black only (and in gray with photoblack).
It is not inktube related because the problem is the same with Mat and Photoblack.
When it is inkpressure related one would expect it to be visible also in the colors.

Epson Repair Service guys:
The Epson Repair guys refuse to come and have a look at the machine and problem.
They told me: We can not fix it and we only get paid by Epson if we fix a problem.
They told me: We know of another E9900 with the same problem.
The problem was not solved by replacing the head...

For:
Hardware - Software settings / images / updates / problem description / What did I do so far?
Go to:  
http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html

Question:
Any of you have experience with this issue? And solved it?
Or am I doing something wrong.....

Thanks,
Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs Reppel

I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule!  In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.

If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.

Thank you
Tom Crozier
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Tom Crozier

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http://www.bigcanvasprints.com for "prosumers"
http://www.print-it-big.com for "prosumers"
stillekracht
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2010, 02:25:22 PM »
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Hi Tom,

Sorry to say and forgive me, but I think this is not the way to go.
Please make a perfect scan of the problem and put it in an attachment with your next post for all of us to see.
You also could try to print a testfile exactly as described on this page.
[http://members.upc.nl/reppel/E9900.html]
Scan it. Post it.

Hartelijke Groet van Matthijs


Quote from: Picture Salon
I am trying to find other users that have an 11880 printer. We have experienced a major flaw with the way in which the 11880 lays down cyan. Epson tried on three separate occasions to fix the problem and was not successful. We are now trying to get a full refund from them but they will not do so. They will only give us a refund based upon a 12 month amortization schedule!  In addition, they are requiring us to pack up the faulty machine or they will have to chage us an extra $1000 to do so! I am so outraged by the way they have handled this that I am looking for other 11880 users (or for that matter and other user) who would be interested in printing the same corner of a photo where we first discovered this problem.
If you are interested, please contact me directly, outside of this forum, at info@picturesalon.com.
Thank you
Tom Crozier
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deanwork
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2010, 12:21:28 PM »
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There seems to be a lot of this going on. Do you guys think there is some major flaw in the design of this particular pressurized cart feed design?
I know all the years I ran my Epson 10K with the pressurized carts it never gave me a single problem ever, and it's still going with back and white inks in it. But this new system of the 9900 is completely different.

You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle. This is making me wonder if it can  ever be fixed correctly. That along with all the ink waste is probably going to make me stay with the HpZ machines for awhile.

john



Quote from: bossanova808
We experience this same issue.

We have found that changing paper types set in the driver has a big effect on it - different paper types work with different papers.  (Means a lot of profiling work!). Fine Art Textured and WCRW seem the two best types in general to minimize the effect while still getting very good results from the printer.  Doesn
't totally eliminate it on pure blacks but it gets to the point where you pretty much have to shine a torch on the page to see the issue.

The problem doesn't occur nearly as much with sheets and I am fairly sure the problem is not abotu ink delivery so much as it is about paper transport mechanisms.

We are also getting dropping out on the cyan channel (not block, the whole channel disappears, pretty sure there is not enough pressure/suction pulling the ink through).  

We have jsut put a service call in for both but I am not sure I hold a lot of hope for their abilities to fix the striping issue.
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stillekracht
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2010, 07:23:04 AM »
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Quote from: deanwork
There seems to be a lot of this going on. Do you guys think there is some major flaw in the design of this particular pressurized cart feed design?
hi John,
I can't help thinking this might be the case.
Unfortunately, I think, too many operators probably are not aware of this subtle flaw I described.

Quote
You certainly shouldn't have banding issues in the back channel like that regardless of any media type setting or bad profle.
Exactly.
So when people ask me: Can't you live with it.. my answer is: Certainly not.

The problem is still not solved... after 2 months.

Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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deanwork
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2010, 05:06:02 PM »
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I don't know about you guys but if I had a major problem that lasted even  3 or 4 weeks with no resolution I'd ask them to come pick the piece of junk up and refund the money, much less 2 months. Sounds like you have been more than patient with them. All I can say is you better not wait until your warranty is over or you will be screwed.

john



Quote from: stillekracht
hi John,
I can't help thinking this might be the case.
Unfortunately, I think, too many operators probably are not aware of this subtle flaw I described.


Exactly.
So when people ask me: Can't you live with it.. my answer is: Certainly not.

The problem is still not solved... after 2 months.

Hartelijke groet van Matthijs
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bossanova808
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2010, 05:47:22 PM »
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Quote from: Farmer
The driver has always adjusted the paper feed based on the paper type selected since the 7000/9000 let alone later models.

Tension prior to the *900 series was determined by the spindle - normal or high tension.  The *900 series has a motorised feed and the tension is altered according to the driver (or RIP) settings.

So the engineer either didn't tell you the whole story or you didn't understand.  Stepping and tension are not the same thing and whilst both play a role, stepping is by far the more important of the two.

What papers are you using, what settings are you using in the driver, what OS, and what app are you printing from?

I did write the engineer told me this was the first time tension (not stepping) was changed by the paper type in the driver but I probably should have left off the 'etc' in that sentence.

The reason I think this is tension OR stepping related is that the paper type setting has such a big effect on it - you can change the wave pattern and or almost eliminate it by varying just the paper type and no other setting.  While it isn't a perfectly straight set of lines, it is a fairly regular pattern of waves.  It may or may not (or also) be pressure related but the effect is 100% consistent given certain paper types and settings.

We use a lot of matte rag papers - have seen the effect on Hahne Photo Rag, Bamboo & Torchon (the worst), but also Museo Portfolio Rag, Silver Rag, Gold Fibre Silk to a lesser degree.  The best paper type to use is WCRW or Textured Fine Art.  High speed off, quality 4 (5 reduces but does not eliminate the issue, and 4 should of course be usable in any case).  Platform is XP with Photoshop CS2 and CS4.  Latest firmware and drivers.  

I agree though that it should then appear in the colours as well and I can't see it there - it's just in deep blacks.  So I am probably wrong about this, it's just the sense I have because it looks like the black channel is overprinting.  Doesn't seem like Epson have any real idea what it is either, but hopefully these issues coming to light across the world will get them to solve it.

Anyway, time I chased up Epson again about looking into this, and the cyan thing.

For those having the issue, how much experimenting have you done with the paper feed controls in the driver and or the LFP remote panel?
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Farmer
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2010, 12:39:01 AM »
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Quote from: bossanova808
I did write the engineer told me this was the first time tension (not stepping) was changed by the paper type in the driver but I probably should have left off the 'etc' in that sentence.

Yes, that is correct.  Previously, if the paper required high tension, the driver would have assumed that the user was using the correct spindle.

Quote from: bossanova808
The reason I think this is tension OR stepping related is that the paper type setting has such a big effect on it - you can change the wave pattern and or almost eliminate it by varying just the paper type and no other setting.  While it isn't a perfectly straight set of lines, it is a fairly regular pattern of waves.  It may or may not (or also) be pressure related but the effect is 100% consistent given certain paper types and settings.

It sounds to me more like a paper setting mismatch.

Have you tried an Epson paper using the appropriate driver setting?  The other papers are, of course, not native to the driver and any setting is a best approximation.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use those papers, but I am suggesting a simple way to test the printer is to use, say, an Epson matte and an Epson gloss paper with the driver set to match and then see if the issue persists.  If it does, you certainly have a stronger case to speak to Epson whereas at the moment it could simply be that the 3rd party paper and the driver setting isn't well matched, which isn't Epson's problem.

Quote from: bossanova808
We use a lot of matte rag papers - have seen the effect on Hahne Photo Rag, Bamboo & Torchon (the worst), but also Museo Portfolio Rag, Silver Rag, Gold Fibre Silk to a lesser degree.  The best paper type to use is WCRW or Textured Fine Art.  High speed off, quality 4 (5 reduces but does not eliminate the issue, and 4 should of course be usable in any case).  Platform is XP with Photoshop CS2 and CS4.  Latest firmware and drivers.

The paper settings can be fine tuned in the driver.  Have you tried that?  It can be very effective when calibrating a 3rd party paper, or even compensating for unusual temperature or humidity levels.

Quote from: bossanova808
I agree though that it should then appear in the colours as well and I can't see it there - it's just in deep blacks.  So I am probably wrong about this, it's just the sense I have because it looks like the black channel is overprinting.  Doesn't seem like Epson have any real idea what it is either, but hopefully these issues coming to light across the world will get them to solve it.

What black are you printing?  RGB value?  What settings in PS (black point compensation, which ICC profile, etc)?  Do you see a difference when you change from bi-directional to uni-directional printing?

Finally, are you using the matte black or the photo black when printing to those media?

Quote from: bossanova808
Anyway, time I chased up Epson again about looking into this, and the cyan thing.

For those having the issue, how much experimenting have you done with the paper feed controls in the driver and or the LFP remote panel?

As I said above, that can be very useful.  I'd highly recommend some experimentation (though only after testing some Epson papers to baseline to ensure the printer itself doesn't have a problem).
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