Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only

[Martin Kristiansen]

Are you getting banding on Hahnemuhle but not the Epson or is that the mottling issue fixed by new paper from Hahnemuhle and really not related to the actual problem your having?

Have  your printed using the Epson drivers?  This could easily be a problem related to the settings in the RIP.

This thread was about a suspected defect in 79/9900 printers, your problem really doesn't sound like a printer problem ... I wouldn't suspect the 11880 as the issue.  Might have been better as a new thread rather than tacked onto this old one.

The reason I brought up the 11880 in this thread is because it has already come up with some printers using the 11880 seeing the same problem. The mottling issue was solved by the paper change but now I see banding. The mottling confused the issue and led me to think the banding was a paper issue but now I am not so sure. As I said I need to do some tests but am too busy to get to it at the moment.

I have not used the Epson drivers and quite agree that the problem could be caused by a rip setting.

[iso50]

Just went through this EXACT same saga. They finally replaced the printer. Guess what, SAME PROBLEM. This would lead me to believe it was either an inherent flaw in the 9900 or that something is wrong with my side of things. The reasons I am inclined to believe the former (that it is an inherent issue with the 9900) are as follows:

- Epson techs are consistently unable to print a test print without the banding issue in the dark range. On their paper, with their file, sent from their computer.

- Various paper types and brands have been used, all with the same results.

- Various computers with running Windows and OS X using different driver versions (latest included) have been used all producing the same results.

Solutions I have found (well, workarounds really, they don't solve the underlying issue, just sidestep it):

- Significantly slow down drying time per pass in "Advanced Media Control"
- Significantly lower paper feed adjustment in "Advanced Media Control"

These seem to abate the issue to the point of it being negligible. This, however, is not satisfactory. When shining a light directly on the prints, the subtle flaw is usually still visible. This is unacceptable for archival prints which command such high prices.

Would love to see this fixed, but afraid I will forever be dealing with this issue.

[catchall]

Has this been confirmed as a problem on all 9900s?  How about the 7900s?
Thanks in advance.

[Dan Berg]

No it has not. In fact I have heard of only a handful. I have both 7900 and 9900 and mine have had no such problems. Not sure what is going on but it is by far not affecting the entire fleet.

[komandz]

I am experiencing the exact same problem.  Was yours ever resolved?  I tried updating the firmware to HW029 but it didn't change the outcome. 

[deanwork]

That's horrible and inexcusable.

[TylerB]

I also have the exact same problem, and it's very easy to reveal it with a RIP that allows one to print only to the black channel. I'm still working on nailing it down, but it seems to be a moire in one or two of the dot sizes, and possibly limited to just K, not LK or LLK.
We'll see, frankly I have better things to do with my time...
I think it's inherent in the printer, and most images along with how the OEM driver builds black and neutrals simply doesn't reveal it. My 9600, 9800, 7800, and 9880 do not have this problem.
Tyler

[narikin]

I am experiencing the exact same problem.  Was yours ever resolved?  I tried updating the firmware to HW029 but it didn't change the outcome. 

This is probably redundant advice, but did you do a thorough head alignment? I had black problems that 90% went away after a good auto alignment, followed by manual fine tuning.  I thought it was blocked nozzle banding, turned out to be head alignment. 

just thought it worth mentioning.

[langier]

My 9900 (second hand) has worked pretty much flawless.

When I purchased it, I drove it back from previous owner by simply stuffing it in my car (weight and size of a filled coffin!:-), and it was driven 130 miles over two mountain passes and 140 miles. It then was packed by four "pallbearers" down a flight of stairs and shoe-horned into my studio.

Once it was set up, I did two things before printing: a head cleaning and a head alignment. It has been a phenomenal machine in the month I've been running it

[uberman]

i have an epson 9900.

hi everyone,

have been reading this thread with interest. i have solved my problem with this waving in the black.

i am outputting straight from photoshop, no rip involved.

i just changed one setting and kept everything else as normal.

i set the platen gap to standard instead of auto, low and behold it worked straight away, perfect blacks!!

the platen gap is in the settings when you print in photoshop, not on the printer.

have viewed this whole thread and can't see that anyone else has found this solution.

uber

[TylerB]

Fantastic, thanks so much. I'm using StudioPrint, changing the platen Gap from an Epson paper "auto" to user, then from default to medium made the difference here. Going through every setting, it clearly makes a big difference. I've never seen this behavior with many other Epson large format models, just the 9900. I even saw it come and go with sheet vs roll, but now wonder if the 2 environments had different platen gap settings as well.
Problem solved.
Thanks again,
Tyler

[bossanova808]

That's been a known fix for a while (google 7900 zebra striping for example).  Problem is, the increase in head strikes can be pretty severe....

[Ernst Dinkla]

Problem is, the increase in head strikes can be pretty severe....

And what is actually solved by that method? Is the reduced distance keeping droplet addressing better or is the dotgain (bleed) higher that way and so covering up a droplet addressing flaw?
I do not see what else it could be.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[bossanova808]

Well, functionally speaking it solves the issue and makes for a saleable print.  That's enough for me, but it's a right pain in the butt.  I can trigger it on ANY 7900 or 9900, people who say they don't see it aren't looking hard enough o roding the right test...I've tried about 10 personally - and Epson have tried a bunch and failed the tests as well.  Maybe here in Aus. we got a whole lot of rejects...but I doubt it.

The only control other than platen gap that has a significant effect is the paper feed adjusment (try +20 - works well enough with most prints) - Epson are WELL aware of the issue both here and internationally and it is unquestionably a 'head in the sand' approach from them.  Given the next printers are probably 12 to 18 months out and that there IS an almost bearable (but quite hassle filled) workaround - I think we're just going to have to wait it out. 

The longer I am in this game, the more I realise ALL the machines have their flaws - from Imacon sharpness issues, to Epson clogging/wavy blacks, to moire/fringing and wierd purple thingies in Leicas, whatever it is - you just have to workaround it and hope they solve it next time! 

Groetjes
B808

Perfect is the enemy of good - or more accurately, of getting on with the job and making a living!!

[TylerB]

well I have to say, for a well known problem it's been remarkable how little mention of it I've found even with extensive searching for the last few months. Discussing it with Epson, they appear dumbfounded there is any such problem, never heard of it. So though, that's been their attitude about every issue I've had with the 9900. I'm not doubting your comments at all, I'm just discouraged how access to known problems and solutions seems to be getting scarcer and scarcer.
Anyway, this is the most informed thread I've seen on this topic. The problem with mine was no doubt exacerbated by the fact that as soon as I started using the new printer and began experiencing far more head strikes than any Epson I've used in 12 years or so, with commonly used materials, I immediately changed my platen gap to wide in my setups. This setting displays the highest degree of the problem of all settings, I now see. So I've been trying to work around this problem from day one.
Anyway... may I ask- won't cheating the paper advance setting result in non accurate image length? Or am I misunderstanding that control?
I agree with your assessment that every product has it's particulars, and i can live with this if the workarounds actually solve the problem. It does make for beautiful prints when all goes well.
Tyler

[Farmer]

I can trigger it on ANY 7900 or 9900, people who say they don't see it aren't looking hard enough o roding the right test...I've tried about 10 personally - and Epson have tried a bunch and failed the tests as well.  Maybe here in Aus. we got a whole lot of rejects...but I doubt it.

Can you elaborate on the steps necessary to guarantee replication of this fault?  Who have you been speaking with at Epson?

[bossanova808]

Can't give you the Epson names I am afraid, private discussions.  Wouldn't be fair to the techs (Epson and their service agents) who have discussed it with me in the 'we know it's there but we don't officially acknowledge it' type way.  And fairly they state that generally with Epson media and the settings they recommend, it doesn't happen....but then the head strikes do...and with very normal thrid party media (photo rags and the like) - it's easy enough to trigger and they have tested it themselves with the same results.  Not at all sure it is ALL machines when I am not exaggerating but I genuinely suspect it's at least a lot of them.

But in the very first post of this thread are the steps to replicate....and basically you can take anEpson 9900, load it with something like Photo Rag, set the platen gap to wide, and print pure RGB 0 black through the Epson driver (paper type Epson Archival Matte usually shows it worst).  Put the print under good light and you will see wavy stripes, to some degree, pretty much every time.  Heck, you can go to the APPAs, take a mini torch, and see the stripes on prints all over the awards wall It's definitely not unusual.

On some machines, it's not obvious and basically you need a bright torch light to really see it on the print so it's effectively non existant.  On others it's quite noticeable on any pure black print.

[bossanova808]

Well there's this thread, some on DPReview IIRC, this one http://blog.howardgrill.com/2009/06/30/epson-7900-epilogue/ and when I was looking into it I found a few more, so it's definitely out there....

Epson initially played dumb with us as well.  But the longer we spent with them the more it came out before eventually they started acknowledging it - the attitude now is that it's simply a part of the design and something that can (sort of) be worked around - pointing them at these sorts of threads helps as well of course, and the original poster has documented it in some detail.  But whenever I come across a big Epson I try it out and I haven't found one yet I can't trigger the problem on. 

Yes the basic issue is that head strikes are very common on standard.  And 'auto' usually seems to lead to 'wide' and manually setting 'wide' or above induces the issue...we see it predominantly on matte papers (about 90% of what we do) but also on things like Harman glossy and Silver Rag as well, though less prominent.  We don't use any Epson media so can't comment on that but I have seen it on Epson Velvet and Premi Semi Gloss for example.

There MAY be a tiny shift in image size but it's never been enough to cause us an issue - on a typical 24 by 25 say it can't be more than a mm too of shift in size I'd say.

[Farmer]

I've never encountered frequent head strikes or reports of frequent head strikes with Epson media or any of the popular 3rd party media with normal settings - the odd roll, toward the end, might have enough memory to need some attention, but quite rare.  Perhaps you could PM me with a contact name?

I don't mean to sound as though I doubt you, but I do find it difficult to reconcile with experience.

Platten gap won't affect image size by any discernable amount.

[bossanova808]

We're talking about the paper feed adjustment re: image size, not the platen gap.

Are you saying you don't get fairly regular head strikes on think fine art media (300gsm or thereabouts) with the platen gap set to standard?  Because if so you must be a very lucky man....we print anywhere from 50 to 300 roll prints a week, mind, so our volumes might bring out the problems a bit more.  But I've never met an Epson x900 series that doesn't do this...so the the temptation is to go to 'wide' and bingo, there's your problem with blacks....

(I am not sure why breaking a confidence to you, about a problem you don't have, makes sense?).  I'm not fussed about being believed, I can trivially easily demonstrate the problem in practise as can the others in this thread I am sure....if you have one without this, then either you are not doing the same tests, or you are lucky enough to have a better machine.  Which is great for you, not so great for us!