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Author Topic: Leaf AFi or Sinar eSprit 65 digital back for Hy6?  (Read 9104 times)
ThierryH
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« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2009, 12:52:30 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
This would probably be true if you looked at two backs from the same vendor with the same sensor technology where one was equipped with microlenses. For example Phase One P45 and P30. Same Kodak 6.8µ technology, same processor, same electronics. You get another stop on the P30 (and loose one at the bottom).

True Yair, but IMO it can be extrapolated to our case, having seen some files from both at the respective ISO settings.
In any case, that wouldn't be what I would look first when comparing the backs, and there seem to be more relevant points to the right choice.

Best regards,
Thierry

edited: BTW, your remark "and loose one at the bottom" is important. One does not gain in DR, what is gained at the top is lost at the bottom.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 12:55:55 PM by ThierryH » Logged

arashm
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« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2009, 02:34:41 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
AFAIK both backs are no longer in production. This should not prevent you from looking/ finding one used or from existing stock.

Yair


I'm surprised that the eSprit 65 is no longer in production, was this not the most recent back to be released by Sinar?
am
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ThierryH
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« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2009, 02:52:58 PM »
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Quote from: arashm
I'm surprised that the eSprit 65 is no longer in production, was this not the most recent back to be released by Sinar?
am

Concerning the eSprit 65, I can't confirm this for sure, that production has stopped, but would guess so if my understanding of the situation is correct.

What I can say for sure is that the back is still sold.

Thierry
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Gigi
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« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2009, 09:35:18 PM »
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This is a very interesting subject and would encourage continued discussion. Anyone use either of these, so as to compare real results?

The Leaf AFI seemed (when held) to be smaller than the Sinar 75, but the eSpirit seemed (in promo literature only) quite attractive. So any real world experience would be welcome.

The AFI II (rotating sensor) is quite interesting, but seems to be hard to find.

Geoff
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Geoff
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2009, 01:40:39 AM »
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Second all that. Would look forward to people having had real world experience with the two backs.

Furthermore, does anyone have experience with the rotating sensor in the AFi-II backs? Does this work better than Sinar's rotating back?
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Pascal Heyman - www.rolleiflexpages.com
Rolleiflex 6008 AF + DB20p, Rolleiflex Hy6, Leaf AFi-II 7
RichA@FotoCare
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 01:14:31 PM »
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Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Second all that. Would look forward to people having had real world experience with the two backs.

Furthermore, does anyone have experience with the rotating sensor in the AFi-II backs? Does this work better than Sinar's rotating back?


Sorry only have experience with the Leaf AFI and AFI II system.  We delivered and still have several AFI's in our rental pool, two of which are the AFI II's.  The back actually stays stationary and with either a bottom dial or side dial you can then change the orientation of the sensor.  I do not believe that Sinar Bron, now Bron Imaging, here in the states received any of the 65's, the e65 or s65r. We experienced much higher demand for the Leaf AFI with almost no demand for the Hy6 body and Sinar 65 back family.  As mentioned previously the Hy6 system looks great in the brochure but never was reality here in the USA.

In regards to the Leaf screen you need to see it first hand, it is really the best.  The touch control either with your finger or stylus is easy to use and navigate and a child could navigate the functions.

Here in the states support is still available for the AFI from Mac Group in Elmsford NY and Kodak.  Bodies and some accessories are still available but backs are only available used.


Rich Andres
Foto Care
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paratom
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2010, 04:45:56 AM »
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I own the 75LV with Hy6 and decided to take it over the 65Esprit.
Why? Larger sensor, no micro lenses, internal memory, lower price. Plus I liked the Dalso sensor.
The advantage I saw in the 65 would be mainly the nice large display and in camera jpg processing.
I also believe the 75LV is used by more people.
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rolleiflexpages
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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2010, 05:12:23 AM »
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Could anyone who uses the Leaf AFi digital backs, or equivalent Aptus models for that matter, inform if the ventilation vents at the side of the digital back are not presenting a point of entry for dirt or dust? From the looks of it, it would seem this could be an issue. Thanks
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2010, 06:31:19 AM »
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Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Could anyone who uses the Leaf AFi digital backs, or equivalent Aptus models for that matter, inform if the ventilation vents at the side of the digital back are not presenting a point of entry for dirt or dust? From the looks of it, it would seem this could be an issue. Thanks

Hi,

we use (non Aptus II) Aptus75S backs with H-cameras for fashion work. Ventilations vents have been no problem for us, but of course we take care of our equipment and don´t drop camera and back in very dusty evironments. But we have been working on the beach and in a desert (lot of wind and fine sand blowing) with no problems. When we started working with Leaf Valeo many years ago we were afraid of this too but it has never been an issue. We experience dust on top of the IR Filter from time to time that has to be removed with dust off, but I think this is normal and will happen to every camera/back combination.
BTW, we definitly prefer the Dalsa sensors.

Cheers, Ulf
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2010, 08:19:15 AM »
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Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Could anyone who uses the Leaf AFi digital backs, or equivalent Aptus models for that matter, inform if the ventilation vents at the side of the digital back are not presenting a point of entry for dirt or dust? From the looks of it, it would seem this could be an issue. Thanks


Not an issue.

The internal components are well sealed off and the vent itself is effectively filtered.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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RAV
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2010, 12:16:54 PM »
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Sorry for taking so long to respond. And sorry for such a long response. On Caribbean vacation the past several weeks using and learning: AFi II 10 with 50, 80, 180 and 1.4x lenses and every extension tube and lens hood. Comments are based on a 40 year history with (among many others) Rollei SL66, 6008AF and 5 months with the AFi:

1) AFi camera:
     IMHO there is no other MF camera as capable for flowers, tabletop and macro work. All complains about lack of live view for MF are noted, but the waistlevel finder is bright and – almost – grain free. Even has magnification if I flip up the magnifier. The ergonomics are spot on for handheld work: the lens rests on the forefinger and middle finger of the left hand. The body rests on the left palm, and the thumb is available for controlling focus mode, metering mode, aperture, shutter speed, etc. All changes made by the left thumb show in the finder, and in the display on the handgrip. The right hand holds the handgrip containing the battery, with the forefinger over the shutter button and front control wheel and the thumb able to activate the mirror lockup and depth of field and rear control wheel. All comments by web reviewers indicating the left hand control buttons move too easily have not been confirmed by me in practice. On dirt roads in the back of a Jeep, in the cabin of a high speed catamaran, on tour busses, with the camera placed with the controls in direct contact with my body and seats there was never ANY tendency for the controls to move. Camera specific variation perhaps? Can’t say, other than to note that for my purposes, the control layout is the best of any camera I have ever handled, including every model at Photo Plus in New York over the last several years, including S2 and Phamiya.
     A few pluses and minuses:  (1) The Auto Focus bracketing is something flower and tabletop shooters can not live without!! You might think manual adjustment of focus is no big deal, you could also go back to using OS8. Nine successive shots in nine seconds is not the same as nine shots in 20 or 30. Nine shots with EVENLY spaced focus planes is heaven. Downside alert: Nine files requires a lot of computing power in Helicon. (2) When pressing the left thumb button for exposure, the camera shifts to ISO setting with the right hand finger wheel. This was never implemented in the back, so the only way to set the ISO is with the back touchscreen. (3) The variable extension tube interferes with the hand grip rotating to the last position of travel. But now we’re really picking nits. (4) The recorded EXIF data does not reflect the use of the extender or extension tubes.

2) Leaf II-10 back:
     I love this back!! I love this back!! Did I tell you how I feel about this back? Where to start? Around the time the P65+ came out there were internet articles cautioning everyone with a high pixel count back to carefully test their lenses and cameras for alignment. So the first thing I did when I received my new toy was to spend 2 months and ±500 shots pixel peeping. I peeped so often and so hard my nose was sore from rubbing up against the screen. 50mm, 80mm, 180mm (with and without the 1.4x) all at f2.8 through f22 with mirror up, mirror down, different ISOs, different shutter speeds, several tripods, two ball heads, with 4 extenders and a variable extender. Can you count the combinations and permutations? I even called Leaf Customer Service to verify how my camera would be tested and verified as within tolerance during manufacturing, and whether Leaf’s (actually Rollei’s) tolerances were within my expectations. The upshot of all this is that Rollei machined the front, top and back of the camera all during one pass on the NC mill. I was told that the lens, viewfinder and back seating planes are as accurately made as is currently possible. I was satisfied with that explanation, but only after examination of hundreds of files in Lightroom. Sharpness of all lenses improved from f2.8 to f5.6, and then held constant to around f16. In current shooting I try to keep within 5.6 to 11. There are no significant differences in sharpness between the three lenses, but I still have a nagging suspicion that the 180 is beyond superb, the 50 is exceptional and the 80 is very very good. My favorite lenses were the Schneider 90 and Zeiss 110, but these (and almost every other lens in the Rollei catalog) were sold three years ago when I gave up on Rollei producing a digital camera. C’est la vie is the saying? I do not like the lack of an apurture ring on the new AFD lenses, but I do not know what I would do with one if it were there. The apurture changes instantly with the rotation of the wheel controlled by the right hand. Change apurture, push stop down button to confirm depth of field, shoot. Its like someone actually thought about how to take a picture.
     For me, usable ISO is 80 to 200. Quality is probably fine at 800, but I accept absolutely no noise in my files. I prefer to use 100 whenever possible.
     The rotating sensor is the reason I held out for the Mark two version of the back (as well as the pixel count). It takes 1.57 seconds to go from horizontal to vertical by means of a large dial on the bottom or right side just behind the body. It takes another 1.57 seconds to look in the viewfinder or the left side of the camera to confirm orientation. This initially sounded superior to removing the back to rotate it. Cleaner, less chance for damage to the sensor, etc. While the reasons for not wanting to remove the back remain, it takes 1.57 seconds to remove the back, and another 1.57 seconds to replace it. So physically rotating the back does not appear to be as much of a time saver as I thought it would be. Removing the back requires sliding one button on the left side about two tenths of an inch. Woe to those pushing this button instead of the rotation wheel. It only happened once. I will be installing some kind of lock to be certain it does not happen again.
     The flip up screen on the Mark II back is more convenient than a fixed screen. Absolutely useless in Caribbean bright sunshine, but then all settings (ISO, folder where files are to be saved, etc) are made in the shade before the shoot. The shot parameters to be used are displayed on the LCD on the handle, and a histogram is shown after each shot. The LCD is readable under any lighting conditions. Turn up the backlight if in the dark. The ability to flip the screen is used (by me) to keep the camera mounted and focused on the tripod without having to tilt the camera. Convenient, not essential.
     The fan and vent system are a non-issue. They do not seem to affect battery life, are reasonably quiet, and are not subject to fouling with dust. A rocket air blast every now and again is all it takes – same as the rest of the body.
     412 shots (55 mb compressed) can be taken with one Sandisk III 32 gb card. It seems that about 300 to 350 shots can be taken with one battery. Focusing the lightweight 80mm lens uses a lot less power than the heavy 180mm.
     Focusing speed and accuracy is way beyond my expectations. I only use single focus mode. Continuous mode seems to hunt more than I like. If there is a target anywhere within the defined central area the camera finds it. Discussions on the web laud the Leica S2 for its focusing ability. In handling the S2 at Fotocare in NYC it behaved similarly to the AFi. Direct comparisons are, of course, not possible. I expected to be manually focusing, but I have never manually focused in over 1,000 shots, except with extension tubes and a paper thin depth of field.
     Have I not mentioned superb resolution, great color, dynamic range, etc.? Take it for granted.

3) Software (I use Windows at home/vacation and Apple at work):
     I am not a fan of Leaf Capture. I do not like the workflow. I do not like the limited controls. I do appreciate the new version for Windows. I do appreciate Leaf/Phase One maintaining the software. I do not shoot tethered, but the last versions of LC seemed to work fine in this regard.
     I like Capture One. I have downloaded and used the windows version over the past two weeks. C1 provides significantly more resolution than LC (windows) or lightroom, and is able to “save” an under or over exposed file by at least one stop more than LC. Both LC and C1 have an extensive database of profiles (both appear to be the same, so C1 probably uses the profiles already created by Leaf). C1 is able to read the compressed .mos format, and saves an associated file for each shot as does Lightroom. It does not appear that I have to uncompress my files unless I want to import them into lightroom. This doubles the number of shots before having to buy another hard drive. More importantly, by not processing the shot I get to revisit it at a later date and improve it as experience allows.
     Lightroom has been my software of choice since before it was lightroom. By expanding the compressed .mos file with Leaf Raw Converter all files can be imported. There does not seem to be the need to do this. Although slightly better than LC for resolution, LC seems to have the better color rendition. Its suble. Its dependent upon operator skill and the individual file. Except for cataloging purposes I think Lightroom (B3) will see less use.

Whichever back you choose the AFi/HY6 is a great camera. I recently saw a demo AFi II 7 on Ebay for a ridiculous price. That's the way I would go.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2010, 12:20:05 PM »
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Guys,
does anybody here has a phone number to Leaf technical support for warranty repairs. I checked their website and could not find any.
Sorry for being off topic.
andre
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2010, 12:34:26 PM »
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RAV,
Nice review on the AFi II -10  thanks for that.
I still regret not picking up the AFi2-10 on ebay from Sun Studios for a BIN of $14k.
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carstenw
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »
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Too bad there weren't more reviews like this before the AFi II production ceased. Are the Leaf II backs also compatible with the Sinar and Rolleiflex Hy6?
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ThierryH
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2010, 01:30:20 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Too bad there weren't more reviews like this before the AFi II production ceased. Are the Leaf II backs also compatible with the Sinar and Rolleiflex Hy6?

Yes they are, Carsten.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2010, 04:38:39 PM »
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I'm surprised to find out the Hy6 System is not a "reality" in the US because I, as well as others on the forum, own and use one in the US. I think it's a great camera. I have a 75lv back. Maybe Rich was referring just to the 65 which I know nothing about.

Best,

Mitchell
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RAV
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2010, 06:09:46 PM »
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Quote from: Mitchell Baum
I'm surprised to find out the Hy6 System is not a "reality" in the US because I, as well as others on the forum, own and use one in the US. I think it's a great camera. I have a 75lv back. Maybe Rich was referring just to the 65 which I know nothing about.

Best,

Mitchell

   Sorry - I was referring to the "HY6" in general to denote the Leaf/Sinar/Rollei family. As far as I know Rollei HY6s were sold only by Direct Sales Marketing (can not remember the exact name) in California. They demoed the 150mm AFD 18 months ago at PhotoPlus in NYC. They were not at PhotPlus in 2009. I tried to reach them - I was willing to pay a small fortune for the one 150mm lens that I know exists - but was unable to make contact with anyone knowledgeable. Absolutely a stellar lens if a 10 minute demo at a show is any indication. It is my understanding that DSM sold only the film back in the US to avoid marketing conflicts.
   If you read the user manuals side by side and word for word you can pick up on functional differences that do not make any difference in use, but a great deal of difference in compatibility. By the way - Leaf and Rollei manuals are not totally complete. You need both to get the whole picture - and I'm not sure that I have that.
   Happy to answer any other question I can.
Rich
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RichA@FotoCare
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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2010, 07:13:49 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Guys,
does anybody here has a phone number to Leaf technical support for warranty repairs. I checked their website and could not find any.
Sorry for being off topic.
andre

In the US I would take it to your local dealer/ dealer where you bought it, if not then it's MAC Group in Elmsford, NY.

(800) 462-6492
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RichA@FotoCare
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 07:30:46 AM »
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Quote from: RAV
Sorry - I was referring to the "HY6" in general to denote the Leaf/Sinar/Rollei family. As far as I know Rollei HY6s were sold only by Direct Sales Marketing (can not remember the exact name) in California. They demoed the 150mm AFD 18 months ago at PhotoPlus in NYC. They were not at PhotPlus in 2009. I tried to reach them - I was willing to pay a small fortune for the one 150mm lens that I know exists - but was unable to make contact with anyone knowledgeable. Absolutely a stellar lens if a 10 minute demo at a show is any indication. It is my understanding that DSM sold only the film back in the US to avoid marketing conflicts.
   If you read the user manuals side by side and word for word you can pick up on functional differences that do not make any difference in use, but a great deal of difference in compatibility. By the way - Leaf and Rollei manuals are not totally complete. You need both to get the whole picture - and I'm not sure that I have that.
   Happy to answer any other question I can.
Rich

Hi Rich!
Another Rich here also and I was referring to the Sinar Hy6 system & the 65.  We had not one sale of a Sinar Hy6 system - I still even have a Hy6 Sinar back plate in my rental inventory that goes unused with our Sinar 75LV.  I believe the AFI-Hy6 is a great body and for many months had hoped it would be revived to the point I was ridiculed by one my friends/peers who is a big Phase dealer.  At this point I'm not sure or believe the manufactures will do bring back the system.  Maybe nationally there are a few Hy6-Sinar systems but not enough, thus our current situation with F&H, Jenoptic & Sinar - Kodak & Leaf.  If I had a choice of systems and software I would stick with the Leaf AFI line.

Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care
NY, NY
212-741-2990
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RAV
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2010, 08:56:36 AM »
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Quote from: xinchenc
Cannot believe THEY do not provide digital back upgrade for AFi/Hy6 anymore.  

Xin
  THEY did what they had to do. So did Lehman Brothers, Chrysler and others. I placed my order for the AFi II 10 after F&K was known to have problems and before Leaf went under. I received and paid for the equipment after the situation at Leaf was fully known, but before the Phase takeover. In other words, based on my understanding that the camera had NO competition for my purposes, my expected 10 year service life, and my hope that I didn't need service, I was willing to make a significant purchase with no backing at all. My total cost is expected to be about $10 per day over the anticipated life of the camera. Today the situation is totally different. I have the possibility of service on both the body and back. I would have to pay, but at least my investment is "insured." I conclude:  (1) Anyone still complaining about the financial situation in the world ought to be thankful they have the ability to complain.  (2) Anyone purchasing an AFi today is going to get a great deal. Will it be a "forever" camera - no. Will it do everything - no. Does it do what it does better than any competitive product - without a doubt in my opinion and with my limited experience.
   If you want a system to "grow" into with new and improved bodies every few years, new and improved lenses, etc. there are obviously more appropriate products available. If you want to create pictures within the paradigm ofered by Rollei for many years, the AFi is the ticket. For way I create my pictures and the 48" by 60" prints I envision there is no other choice.
Rich
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