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Author Topic: Phase One P65+ vs Hasselblad 50MS test  (Read 25704 times)
ThierryH
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2009, 11:49:59 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
okay, thanks!
I only thought the difference from sharp to uber-sharp is less obvious than from soft to sharp (like in the samples above) ...

may be, BUT: the difference WITHIN the sharp zone or in the DoF is more obvious, and that's what counts, since multishot photographers are mainly studio/products/stills photographers often using view cameras to define and choose their sharpness plane at the right place (where it imports to be sharp), and when you can have more details and true colours there it is a win situation.

Am not selling multishot vs single, and Yair is absolutely right, the workflow and the use of such multishot backs is very different.

Thierry
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yaya
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2009, 12:06:20 PM »
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Worth noting that in these samples the extra 10.5MP on the P65+ were used for capturing the black cloth on the left, mostly...

Moving the camera closer to the scene to get the exact same frame might have changed things, or not...
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 01:37:34 PM »
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I've now successfully downloaded all of the files - thank you Niels.

After running the H3D-50MS single shot raw file through Phocus 2.0 and the P65+ raw file through Capture One 5.1 at complete default (just import, process as 8 bit tiff), the results appear quite different than the post you attached earlier Niels, and appears much more like what I would expect to see from these two products at those settings having sold each.

The same files that you posted appear to have some sharpening added to the Hasselblad file and some softening added to the Phase One file. Not saying how, just saying that is what my educated eye sees.

Otherwise, the lack of highlight detail in the P65+ in comparison to the H3D-50MS is obviously due to the default tone curve of Capture One, which has more contrast than the Phocus default curve.


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Steve Hendrix
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BlasR
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
I've now successfully downloaded all of the files - thank you Niels.

After running the H3D-50MS single shot raw file through Phocus 2.0 and the P65+ raw file through Capture One 5.1 at complete default (just import, process as 8 bit tiff), the results appear quite different than the post you attached earlier Niels, and appears much more like what I would expect to see from these two products at those settings having sold each.

The same files that you posted appear to have some sharpening added to the Hasselblad file and some softening added to the Phase One file. Not saying how, just saying that is what my educated eye sees.

Otherwise, the lack of highlight detail in the P65+ in comparison to the H3D-50MS is obviously due to the default tone curve of Capture One, which has more contrast than the Phocus default curve.



Steve,

Did you spend a lot of time with phase files  in little with H3D-50?

or can I believe in any sale person, the they will do the best for the customer no just for the sale?


or this is like a car dealer, my car is better because I can give you the tire lock, first oil change in so on?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2009, 03:09:40 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
There still looks to be a little posterization in the apple on the P65+. Less evident on the Hasselblad. I think it's just all splitting hairs nowadays.

I've looked at a lot of files from the top Sony, Canon, Nikon DSLRs and after a while I say, who cares, any of the current crop of pro cameras make superb files. It's just the user's job to make superb photographs.

Anecdotally, I would buy the Hasselblad if I needed and/or could afford the system. It's less cost and appears to 'match' in quality. The Hassy 800 ISO looks usable and is really all that's needed with that size file. Otherwise a DSLR is just a wiser choice, low light necessitates a better AF system anyway.

All these companies need to start selling this gear with other methods than resolution. Those days are gone. Workflow is where it is now and unless shooting a MFDB is as easy as using a 5DII in every aspect, I have no desire to re-enter the realm. I'll watch from the sidelines and do my thang.


I agree with regard to tests, John. I think the P65+ was a first step towards addressing workflow by offering the ability to reduce resolution while utilizing the same full 645 sensor size (which has been asked for repeatedly in the past, larger sensor, less resolution) while also offering a 2 stop sensitivity advantage over other large sensors. The funny thing I hear is photographers asking for higher ISO with medium format, then when it is delivered, saying they don't need it because of their DSLR. And I understand higher ISO is a small step, and more usability in the vein of 35mm DSLR is desired, and I believe medium format will continue to work towards that.

FYI - the H3D-50 does cost less than the P65+ (and a P45+ costs less than the H3D-50), but the P65+ decked out with a DF camera and Schneider 80mm LS lens costs exactly the same as the proposed price for the H4D-60. There is not less cost with a Hasselblad system.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2009, 03:17:23 PM »
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Quote from: BlasR
Steve,

Did you spend a lot of time with phase files  in little with H3D-50?

or can I believe in any sale person, the they will do the best for the customer no just for the sale?


or this is like a car dealer, my car is better because I can give you the tire lock, first oil change in so on?


Blas:

I don't blame anyone being skeptical of a dealer one bit.

On the other hand, there are few users who have the amount of experience with comparative products, and especially as they have developed over generations.

I have over 10 years experience with Hasselblad/Imacon products and software, including early versions of Flexcolor, 6 megabyte Carnival backs through Phocus and H3DII camera systems.

The two raw files I downloaded were imported through Phocus 2.0 and C1 5.01 and exported as tiff. No adjustments made whatsoever. And those are the results I got. Clearly the results that were posted had been adjusted in some way, in Haselblad's favor, for some reason...

But the files are still there, and you can download yourself and see the same thing I did.

Providing the raws is one way of (at least a little) keeping things honest.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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Carsten W
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2009, 03:18:22 PM »
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Quote from: BlasR
Steve,

Did you spend a lot of time with phase files  in little with H3D-50?

or can I believe in any sale person, the they will do the best for the customer no just for the sale?


or this is like a car dealer, my car is better because I can give you the tire lock, first oil change in so on?

What I would personally like to see is each dealer develop the photos from their own camera, and post them against each other, with directions of how the results were achieved and the raw files. Then we could expect to see the best each system is capable of.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2009, 03:42:40 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
The two raw files I downloaded were imported through Phocus 2.0 and C1 5.01 and exported as tiff. No adjustments made whatsoever. And those are the results I got. Clearly the results that were posted had been adjusted in some way, in Haselblad's favor, for some reason...
finally I just download the P65+ file and want to confirm that. My result with defaults look the same as Steve's.

And @ John-S - there is absolutely no posterization in the apple. That's just clipping in the sRGB color space and/or on the Monitor color space (even on my wide gamut display). The actual file has absolutely clean and smooth transitions in all the 3 color chanels.

Those "comparisions" leave an unpleasant aftertase...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 03:44:15 PM by tho_mas » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2009, 05:01:24 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
There still looks to be a little posterization in the apple on the P65+.

Agree with tho_mas: I see zero posterization in the raw files of either the Hassy or Phase.

Doug
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 08:55:15 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2009, 05:03:02 PM »
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I didn't want to cause an argument which would be of no value to anyone so I didn't write it earlier but my first impression when I read the post was that the author of this 'test' was out of line making subjective remarks about competition's product (not to mention little word game here and there which I detest- for instance the name of the topic which suggests that it's digital back test, not camera systems test). And running such test can only be done by someone who has a profound knowledge of both products (with some personal experience), so that such things like these faulty results don't occur. That is if the person running the test intentions are to be fair and square about it and provide unbiased, objective results..
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Niels Van Iperen
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2009, 05:09:18 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
The two raw files I downloaded were imported through Phocus 2.0 and C1 5.01 and exported as tiff. No adjustments made whatsoever. And those are the results I got. Clearly the results that were posted had been adjusted in some way, in Haselblad's favor, for some reason...
I have a lot of experience with Phocus, none with Capture One. Just installed it, put everything in zeros, and that's the result I got. Is there a way to export your settings in Capture One to prove it? In Phocus, all adjustments were on zeros (including sharpen). Only lens corrections were on in both cases because they are an integral part of the system. No focus adjustments in favor of Hasselblad, no soft focus filter for Phase...
Several Phase photographers did their own testing, and nobody noticed anything 'funny' about the software settings...
I do not know how your Phocus file got a grey-blueish cast in the highlights. Never seen that before... Here's a snapshot of what my settings looked like. Show me yours?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 05:17:58 PM by Niels Van Iperen » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2009, 05:33:18 PM »
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Quote from: Niels Van Iperen
I have a lot of experience with Phocus, none with Capture One. Just installed it, put everything in zeros, and that's the result I got. Is there a way to export your settings in Capture One to prove it? In Phocus, all adjustments were on zeros (including sharpen). Only lens corrections were on in both cases because they are an integral part of the system. No focus adjustments in favor of Hasselblad, no soft focus filter for Phase...
Several Phase photographers did their own testing, and nobody noticed anything 'funny' about the software settings...
I do not know how your Phocus file got a grey-blueish cast in the highlights. Never seen that before... Here's a snapshot of what my settings looked like. Show me yours?


Neils:

There's no way to practically show all settings as screen shots in Capture One and it wouldn't prove anything. I have to say that I did actually click a grey patch with the white balance tool, because the file came into Capture One blue (perhaps it was set to the wrong white balance to begin with?). I didn't make any white balance adjustment to the Hasselblad file because it already appeared balanced.

I can tell you Niels that the files as I presented them are the expected quality from these two products. I know both products extremely well. Hasselblad files are known for coming in more linear looking than Phase One files. This is due to how each program handles defaults, they do so very differently, and either case has its advocates.

But the default look of each file is indicative not just of what these two individual digital backs produce, but in fact for what Hasselblad and Phase One digital backs in general produce on default with each of their own applications. If you had said these were files from a P45+ and an H3DII-39 or a P30+ and an H3DII-31 I would have assumed the same discrepancy had occurred.

The files that you posted did not look to me like what I would expect to see from these products at their default, based on my (very vaild if I do say so) experience. That is why I was interested in looking at the raw files myself.


Steve Hendrix
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tho_mas
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2009, 05:37:20 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
I have no horse in the race, so see or don't see what you want.
But the sample Steve shows clearly presents less subtle color gradients in the P65+ apple than the Hasselblad. I called that posterization because that is what it looks like, as if the tones are skipping shades whereas the Hassy doesn't.
yes. Because the P65+ has higher saturated colors in these gradiants - and they are clipped by the color profile of Steve's screenshot (~sRGB).
Now if we judge about $$$$$ equipment based laptop (or iMac) screenshots then there's something wrong....
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BlasR
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2009, 05:57:02 PM »
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 I must say the file from p65+ look very poor, nothing like what is should be,and, hasseblad files look like what is should be.

I had p25 and p45+ the files from then look much better then the one neils, posted.

Untruthful, post can give bad taste to anyone.

People accused Michael Reichmann, of  being untruthful, when it's come hasselblad and be an favor of phase one, but maybe I have problem with my eyes reading it, because I didn't see it yet.

Now we have this post about p65+  to me, this is delivered, to get customer for hasselblad.

I like phase one( I don't have it anymore)  but I love hasselblad, special the customer service.


I only hear go things about Steve and Doug, and if I ever go back to phase, I will be contacting then.


Steve, I ask you, because sale person(sometimes) do things just to make the others look bad, in I was thinking you posted the file of p65+ after you work in it and want to

make shore neils get nail.  now the I download it my self I can see i was wrong asking you that.

 from the minutes I saw the file of phase didn't look ok to me.



Sorry Neils, I got bad taste about you now, maybe you don't care about it but I do.(i'm a hasseblad user)

an apology from you, for non be truthful about working with one file in not the other will be accepted, we all make a mistake in our life.

Happy new year to all
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jimgolden
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2009, 06:28:15 PM »
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this is a funny thread
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tho_mas
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2009, 06:37:21 PM »
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Quote from: John-S
I downloaded the raw files
above you were referring to Steve's image. So I thought you draw your conclusions from that screenshot.
On my monitor I see what you mean with "posterization". But still... that's just an isse of the monitor's color space (blue and green chanels are clipped... slightly). But the modulation in the file is there.
Still I agree that the Hasselblad file looks more pleasent (to my taste).
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2009, 06:44:11 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
There's no way to practically show all settings as screen shots in Capture One and it wouldn't prove anything.
Steve,
Without wanting to make this thread into a useless DID-DID NOT discussion I would like you to take a look at this: I just repeated the Capture One Process exactly as the first time and the results came out exactly the same as in my first test. This time though I did take snapshots of all the settings in the program. Being new to the Capture One software I would like to know where the setting is that make things go wrong (I am sure that would be useful to other new users as well). So I did capture all the settings that I used - as in my previous post with Phocus - and I am very curious to the difference with your settings. Also in regard to the blue/grey cast in the HB file.
Thanks,
Niels
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 06:46:05 PM by Niels Van Iperen » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2009, 06:45:16 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
above you were referring to Steve's image. So I thought you draw your conclusions from that screenshot.
On my monitor I see what you mean with "posterization". But still... that's just an isse of the monitor's color space (blue and green chanels are clipped... slightly). But the modulation in the file is there.
Still I agree that the Hasselblad file looks more pleasent (to my taste).



I will say that this is a good subject matter (the fabric) to see issues with digital files and there are issues with both files. From the standpoint of the P65+ I would say that since it was processed with default settings in Capture One, to attain a more natural film-like look, I would choose no sharpening and reduce contrast to achieve that. This also has the effect of reducing posterization in areas where it might appear. Naturally, a more aggressive processing would enhance that in subtle gradations.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2009, 06:53:17 PM »
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Quote from: Niels Van Iperen
Steve,
Without wanting to make this thread into a useless DID-DID NOT discussion I would like you to take a look at this: I just repeated the Capture One Process exactly as the first time and the results came out exactly the same as in my first test. This time though I did take snapshots of all the settings in the program. Being new to the Capture One software I would like to know where the setting is that make things go wrong (I am sure that would be useful to other new users as well). So I did capture all the settings that I used - as in my previous post with Phocus - and I am very curious to the difference with your settings. Also in regard to the blue/grey cast in the HB file.
Thanks,
Niels


You know, it's late, the Cavs are playing the Hawks at Phillips, Eye yi...

I don't see your sharpening tool.

I need to get to Fedex before they close, then get home, and maybe I'll try and throw up the screen shots.

But it doesn't matter Niels. I know my files are right. I don't have any idea what happened with your files and I'm not saying there was anything intentional, something is wrong with your files. But mine are right, I know they're right, and anyone familiar with Phase One and Hassleblad files and how they compare knows they're right.


Steve Hendrix
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tho_mas
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2009, 06:58:09 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
I will say that this is a good subject matter (the fabric) to see issues with digital files and there are issues with both files. From the standpoint of the P65+ I would say that since it was processed with default settings in Capture One, to attain a more natural film-like look, I would choose no sharpening and reduce contrast to achieve that.
I'd probably start with the "linear filmcurve" and make my own curve aftwards. I am finding the "film standard" curve quite steep.
Quote
This also has the effect of reducing posterization in areas where it might appear.
maybe. In this case if you process to AdobeRGB it will be lost. You have to process to the camera profile here and fine tune in Photoshop (or prior to processing with the Color Editor).
IMHO...

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