Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: "Warm" color cast in B&W after calibration!!?!  (Read 8036 times)
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« on: January 11, 2010, 05:23:04 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi folks...this my first post here, I haven been hangin around and reading for a while thou.

Compared to you guys I´m new to digital photography and especially colomanagemnet.
I´ve been spending the last couple of weeks reading and trying to atleast get some sence about colomanagent.
Recently I got my self a Spyder 3 Elite and Dell 2209WA (22" LCD with e-IPS) and ofcourse dived in to the calibration ASAP.
But I´m having trouble with getting a slight "warm" tone or colorcast or what ever you want to call it.
It´s like applying a "warm photo filter" in Photoshop.

When I calibrate I just follow the "onscreen walk thru" with Spyder3 software provided from DataColor.
I ofcourse make sure I have the latest version downloaded from there site.
My calibration settings have been 6500k,2.2 / 6500k,native...I have tried monitors presets, I havet tried using the RGB sliders
and aiming for 6500k "manually". I have also tried other whitepoints and gamma settings.
I have accses to other monitors to so I have tried Acer AL16W (low budget TN panel), Eizo ColorEdge CG222WK (s-PVA panel)

I have my Photoshop CS4 set to AdobeRGB, and I usually do my B&W conversions with PS B&W.
I have tried to convert my files to "grey scale"...to be sure to kill any colorinformation... but still the same.
I have also tried different kind of raw converters, picture viewers...I have my EOS 5D set to AdobeRGB

Bottomline is...no matter what setting I use or what monitor I try, as soon as the calibration software loads the profile, my photos gets a warmer tone.
Somehow it leads me to belive it has some thing to do with the calibration it self, either hardware or software.

Although it is a very slight warmtone, in a "colored picture" it´s practicaly undetectable....B&W is much more sensitive to colorcast and it´s enough to make it feel like it´s not pure B&W.


I fully understand it´s difficult to give some advice and get some sence in whats been going on....but if anyone have any ideas or can point me in any direction...it would be much apreciated.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9092



WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 06:00:08 PM »
ReplyReply

This is a color issue on the display not the output right?

Why not use a cooler target white point? Does the software allow you to enter custom white point or provide more presets? Did you try D65 instead of 6500K assuming that’s an option. I don’t know this software. I’d imagine they would provide a way of altering the WP.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 07:21:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: digitaldog
This is a color issue on the display not the output right?

Why not use a cooler target white point? Does the software allow you to enter custom white point or provide more presets? Did you try D65 instead of 6500K assuming that’s an option. I don’t know this software. I’d imagine they would provide a way of altering the WP.


Yes it´s an issue on the display....

I can see why you recommend me to use a cooler whitepont target...I have thought of that..and I´m going to try it.

But somehow it feels like masking the problem...if it infact is a problem...does anyone else experience anything similar?
If I use a cooler whitepoint target, isn´t that gonna affect my images when it comes to printing?
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9092



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 07:34:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
But somehow it feels like masking the problem...if it infact is a problem...does anyone else experience anything similar?
If I use a cooler whitepoint target, isn´t that gonna affect my images when it comes to printing?

Its not masking the problem. What makes 6500K (which is a range of colors you’ve specified unlike using a Standard Illuminant) right? In fact, if you had more than one software package and asked for identical calibration aim points, more than likely, you’d end up with different results. Yes, I know that’s not supposed to be the case but it is. Also, the only way to truly get D65 or even 6500K out of your display would be to heat it to the point it would produce this (assuming it reacted like a true black body radiator) and you’d end up with a pool of molten plastic on your desktop. The right values you insert are those that produce the proper print to screen matching. You say the results are too warm, so up the values until you get the results you expect. And no, the display calibration and profile have zero effect on your printing.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 08:01:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: digitaldog
Its not masking the problem. What makes 6500K (which is a range of colors you’ve specified unlike using a Standard Illuminant) right? In fact, if you had more than one software package and asked for identical calibration aim points, more than likely, you’d end up with different results. Yes, I know that’s not supposed to be the case but it is. Also, the only way to truly get D65 or even 6500K out of your display would be to heat it to the point it would produce this (assuming it reacted like a true black body radiator) and you’d end up with a pool of molten plastic on your desktop. The right values you insert are those that produce the proper print to screen matching. You say the results are too warm, so up the values until you get the results you expect. And no, the display calibration and profile have zero effect on your printing.


Well...OK then....a cooler whitepoint target it is...I´m going to play around with it.

However I still think the behaviour is strange...that it ads a color cast after calibration.
I tried one thing... I went for the manuall setting of RGB and target whitpoint of 6500k/gamma 2.2...and when the software was reading my whitpoint to 6512K, my luminace as desired and everything else was set accordingly, I pulled up PS with a B&W conversion in "grayscale", looked at it closely, it feelt just the way I want it to..no color cast nor warm nor coold. I then clicked the "next" button in the spyder3 software so that the calibration started reading and measureing. When everything was done and my profile was active, I pulled up the exact same image and there it was...a sligth warm tonality in the greysacles.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
Neuffy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 10:35:15 PM »
ReplyReply

I'd say that the temperature IS a color cast. Try putting a 4000K display next to a 9000K display. One is very, very warm. The other is very, very cool.

We typically can compensate for this automatically (automatic biological white balance), but if you have mixed lighting conditions this may have something to do with the problem.

It sounds like the problem may be your screen's color temperature vs your ambient lighting. If I'm using tungsten lighting everywhere, my screen is going to look very cool.

Also, perhaps the initial color cast was cool - and your calibration fixed this.
Logged

mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 03:13:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Thnx alot guys...your help is much apreciated.

My ambientlight is kind of tungstenish, so that might have a small part of it, and as Neuffy said my monitor might have had an colorcast to begin with.
Althou it wasn´t cooll, it feelt sligtly yellow/greenish kind of...

Looks like I´m gonna be spending som time here testing and calibrating...


Anyway...thnx again for your words....always a pleasure to get help from the pros.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9092



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 08:32:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
My ambientlight is kind of tungstenish, so that might have a small part of it, and as Neuffy said my monitor might have had an colorcast to begin with.

I thought you said the issue was the display alone, not the print.... You could view the display in a dark room but if you detect a “cast” on the display and that’s your issue, lets fix that if possible. Note, you may want to contact the people who made the calibration package about this.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 09:06:29 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: digitaldog
I thought you said the issue was the display alone, not the print.... You could view the display in a dark room but if you detect a “cast” on the display and that’s your issue, lets fix that if possible. Note, you may want to contact the people who made the calibration package about this.


Yeah it is a display issue..
I think that is what Neuffy is talking about to. If you have a very warm(tungsten) ambient light...it might affect how you experience the colors on your monitor.

Anyway...I´m going to do a recalibration with a cooler target whitpoint and make sure there´s no other light affecting the monitor.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
JeffKohn
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1671



WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 12:30:03 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
Yeah it is a display issue..
I think that is what Neuffy is talking about to. If you have a very warm(tungsten) ambient light...it might affect how you experience the colors on your monitor.
If anything, I would expect that to make the colors on the screen appear cool, not warm.


Logged

Jonathan Wienke
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5759



WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2010, 07:22:07 AM »
ReplyReply

What you're experiencing is normal. Displays are generally manufactured with a very cool native whitepoint, sometimes higher than 9000K. You've gotten used to interpreting that being "neutral". Now that you've calibrated to 6500K, it looks "warm" in comparison, but it really isn't. You're simply seeing a reasonable display whitepoint (not excessively cool) for the first time and it looks warm in comparison. After using your calibrated display for a few days, you'll get used to it.

BTW, its also normal to see colors change when the monitor profile loads. It's how you know it's working...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 07:24:28 AM by Jonathan Wienke » Logged

Marco Ugolini
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53



WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 01:38:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
Yeah it is a display issue..
I think that is what Neuffy is talking about to. If you have a very warm(tungsten) ambient light...it might affect how you experience the colors on your monitor.

Anyway...I´m going to do a recalibration with a cooler target whitpoint and make sure there´s no other light affecting the monitor.

If you have access to another colorimeter (an i1 display 2, for example), calibrate and profile using that one.

If the results look good, then you will know that the problem was due to your Spyder.
Logged

Marco Ugolini
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 04:12:24 AM »
ReplyReply

OK...thnx alot for all your input.
I went for the digitaldog  advice with cooler whitepoint target, and I got the result I wanted...however the behavior is still there.

Now, I recently got a good deal on a 27" iMac in the local store, and I have a friend who was very interested in buying my computer, so I went for the switch.  
My first mac...absolutely love it. Haven´t done any calibrating yet...but I suspect the same thing here..I havet go for a lower white point target.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
Marco Ugolini
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53



WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 12:25:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
OK...thnx alot for all your input.
I went for the digitaldog  advice with cooler whitepoint target, and I got the result I wanted...however the behavior is still there.
Fine. But what about trying another colorimeter and comparing the results? Let me repeat that your present colorimeter may be defective. It wouldn't be a first with Spyders.
Logged

Marco Ugolini
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 03:00:33 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Marco Ugolini
Fine. But what about trying another colorimeter and comparing the results? Let me repeat that your present colorimeter may be defective. It wouldn't be a first with Spyders.

Yeah I have arranged that...going to borrow a friends i1 Display2 tomorrow and try it...I have also bought ColorEyes Display Pro software.
So I´ll give it a whirl in the next couple of days..I´m going to try both colorimeters with Dipslay Pro.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
Marco Ugolini
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53



WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 03:15:09 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
Yeah I have arranged that...going to borrow a friends i1 Display2 tomorrow and try it...I have also bought ColorEyes Display Pro software.
So I´ll give it a whirl in the next couple of days..I´m going to try both colorimeters with Dipslay Pro.
Please let us know how it turns out.
Logged

Marco Ugolini
mrazster
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46



WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 03:25:58 AM »
ReplyReply

OK then...first run was done with Spyder 3 Elite and Display Color Pro...I went for whitepoint D65, gamma 2.2, luminance 130cd/m and blackpoint set to ABSOLUTE..everything else set accordingly.
The result was ridiculus...a heavy yellow tint/cast...there is no way in haven that could be "normal" after a calibration.

Second run with same hardware but whitepoint set to native...and now we´re getting some where. My B&W look much better...when I open up an image in PS and convert it to "gray scale"...the image acctually is grayscal/B&W ...no imidiate cast or tint or anything else. The contrast on the other hand feels a little bit on the low side...but not an exctent where I can´t live with it, color feels also little weak.

That´s what I got so far....Display Pro is an absolut wonderful application to work with.
I´m gonna do some more testing.
Logged

http://www.monochromatic.nu - Black´n White Photography
iMac 27" - Canon EOS 1Ds MK III - Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8 L - Canon EF 24-105mm F/4 L IS USM
ChasP505
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 114



« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 07:41:10 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
OK then...first run was done with Spyder 3 Elite and Display Color Pro...I went for whitepoint D65, gamma 2.2, luminance 130cd/m and blackpoint set to ABSOLUTE..everything else set accordingly.
The result was ridiculus...a heavy yellow tint/cast...there is no way in haven that could be "normal" after a calibration.

Maybe you have a defective Spyder3 puck.  I used a Spyder3 puck from a Spyder3 Pro system...  Same monitor, CEDP software, D65, gamma 2.2, 120cd/m2 luminance, relative/minimum black point.  Did not touch any monitor controls except Brightness, which fell to 10%.  Resulting profiles had no color cast as you describe, but the profile validation reports from within CEDP showed widely varying inaccuracies in deep gray tones.  Black point was measured to be 0.27cd/m2.

I replaced that puck with another from a Spyder3 Express package.  My profiles are now consistent, and the reported deltaE max and avg are very low.  Still no color cast.  I have no problem with "weak" color, contrast, or shadow detail.  My B&W prints from my HP printer are excellent, whether I'm printing a standardized test image or my own photo. I get a good print match to my softproofed images in Photoshop.

BTW...  The Spyder3/CEDP combo measures the native white point of my Dell 2209WA, factory default settings, to be about 6420K (measured at approximate center of the display).  When the computer starts up and the profile loads to the video card LUT, I don't get much color change at all.  This test review showed the color temperature of the the display to be 6151K at factory settings:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009...09wa-part9.html
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 08:25:42 AM by ChasP505 » Logged

Chas P.
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9092



WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2010, 08:44:10 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
Second run with same hardware but whitepoint set to native...and now we´re getting some where. My B&W look much better...when I open up an image in PS and convert it to "gray scale"...the image acctually is grayscal/B&W ...no imidiate cast or tint or anything else. The contrast on the other hand feels a little bit on the low side...but not an exctent where I can´t live with it, color feels also little weak.


Native WP is quite useful for less than good display systems. The LUT adjustment the combo is making sucks and you’re letting the color managed app’s do the heavy lifting here instead.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Marco Ugolini
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53



WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2010, 01:49:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: mrazster
OK then...first run was done with Spyder 3 Elite and Display Color Pro...I went for whitepoint D65, gamma 2.2, luminance 130cd/m and blackpoint set to ABSOLUTE..everything else set accordingly.
The result was ridiculus...a heavy yellow tint/cast...there is no way in haven that could be "normal" after a calibration.

Second run with same hardware but whitepoint set to native...and now we´re getting some where. My B&W look much better...when I open up an image in PS and convert it to "gray scale"...the image acctually is grayscal/B&W ...no imidiate cast or tint or anything else. The contrast on the other hand feels a little bit on the low side...but not an exctent where I can´t live with it, color feels also little weak.

That´s what I got so far....Display Pro is an absolut wonderful application to work with.
I´m gonna do some more testing.
Great, but no word yet of comparative results using the i1 Display 2.
Logged

Marco Ugolini
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad