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Author Topic: Mars Banned  (Read 14951 times)
Mike Louw
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 01:26:27 PM »
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Quote from: Parrikar
Rem acu tetigisti.

Now THAT takes me back! A favourite saying of P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves in the Jeeves and Wooster stories.
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 02:31:29 PM »
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That's funny, I just finished reading Jeeves in the Offing, literally 2 hours ago, heck I was spouting 'Rem Acu Tecegisti' to my teachers when I was 14 years old, no doubt they thought me odd.   I wonder if kids these days would enjoy PG Wodehouse like I did when being 14 years old still had a sense of innocence..
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shuttersny
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2010, 02:36:18 PM »
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I don't disagree with anything that you've said. I fact I have been concerned about the state of the site and especially the forum for the past couple of years.
Michael
[/quote]


Design wise, an overhaul of the LL site and forum is greatly overdue. Being in the creative fields we all know that self review, changing up approaches, responding to new trends in the marketplace are always needed. Even those with the most unique visions have had to change up. So the news about the site on that point is very good to hear.

But I am afraid there is more that has changed over time than just the need for a revitalized structure. I have been in this business, photography, for more than thirty years (now semi-retired-not by choice I might add) and have participated in many trade groups, organizations and forums, including this one for years. What they all end up being degraded by is the inevitable bickering and personal attacks which tends drive some of the more talented and experienced members and deter the entry of younger more fragile newbies. I have seen some of the finest shooters on these site/groups attacked because they take "just pictures of pretty woman" or of "just rocks" or they use this camera or that. I have seen forum members who had immense production skills - which if you are really in this business are extremely important - decried for talking of extensive budgets or equipment logistics. I have seen some very very proficient software pioneers who have participated in this forum (and still do thank God)being attacked for the silliest of things. I have seen members whose language is not English contribute the best they can and being pedantically corrected on form not substance. Even though these sites are somewhat "verbal exchanges" they require writing skills in which sometimes sarcasm does not translate well, especially from culture to culture language to language resulting in many a bruise.

I have gained the most incalculable growth and knowledge from many of the members of these forum both experts and amateurs. One of the most joyous aspects of being in photography is you never stop learning, there is always some insight, some technique some mindset which opens up a whole new way of "seeing" something or of better understanding. Photography has always involved a certain level of technical skill as well as aesthetic approach. I think that is one of the addictive things about it - it requires many different abilities. There is also a sliding scale of required talent - I have seen some who can't mount a lens on a camera who can take the most wondrous pictures. On the other end I have worked with those that can grind their own lens, make their own film and yet can't shoot worth squat. They have all had something to offer even though many of them have egos which in a creative situation you are always going to deal with both positive and negative.

Many of these very capable people have been driven away by various situations.
I have grieved the loss of these members" because it has denied me the joy of learning from them, listening to their stories and feel their absence tugging down the level of discussion.

On a stimulating active site, with many participants, it is impossible to monitor everything.
We will always have the contributors who want to know what F/stop you shot that at and were you holding it in your left hand or right and was that a Billingsley bag you were carrying. We always have the over anxious new comer wanting to show their latest creations good bad or indifferent We will always have some one of one philosophical or fundamentalist bend - whether it be of chemistry, physics, or theosophy. We will always have people who work in different markets and niches with different values.
How one handles/moderates such sites/members is one of the most confounding management questions imaginable. It killed the Galbraith Site - it has devalued others.

Entering into a site like this is entering to a community.We all come here for a need or a reason. Whether it is to determine how to do something, sell something, share something, promote something. Anyone who creates a site does it for a need or a reason. A person may not even be aware of the real reason one starts a site or participates in one. Anyone who takes on creating a site like this one is taking on a momentous if maybe impossible task. I do not know nor have ever met M. Reichmann. I think he does an admirable job.

Whatever be the future of this site I hope that the ability to maintain the participation of experienced voices and the encouragement of new voices is the goal and focus.

With Respect,

"Shutters"
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2010, 02:47:01 PM »
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Quote from: shuttersny
Whatever be the future of this site I hope that the ability to maintain the participation of experienced voices and the encouragement of new voices is the goal and focus.

Well said!

Paul
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fike
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2010, 03:00:08 PM »
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I have followed LuLa forums for over five years.  I have learned a great deal.  I have helped a few people myself.  

Two observations

* Collaboration has given way to authority.  It seems to me that three years ago we were learning to push the limits of the technology.  To this end, we collaborated to figure out the best ways...you might call them best practices...to push digital technology and realize our vision.  Today, we fall back on accepted mantras like expose to the right, for example.  People come to the site asking questions of the great oracle (Michael, presumably) like "What is the best camera?"
* People don't post as many inspiring images as they once did. Critique and commentary on each others work has fallen by the wayside.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 06:00:48 PM by fike » Logged

Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
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TrailPixie.net

I carry an M43 ILC, a couple of good lenses, and a tripod.
HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2010, 03:16:59 PM »
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I don't think many will complain about a well-done restructuring of the site and forum, but I'll go ahead and say that I have found myself coming to this site less and less over the years. There was a time about five years ago while I was living in Africa where there was rarely available internet access and yet I devoured every word written on the site and browsed the forums as regularly as I could.

Since that time, the frequency of LLVJ's has slowed to non-existent and the published content has declined to the point where I am rarely interested. It seems to me that there were at one time very frequent articles on new and better ways to process images, get better prints, sharpen images, streamline workflow, etc. Recent articles and article series by guest writers, while they might be well-written and useful to some, have been illustrated with lackluster (to me) and seen-so-many-times-before images by the authors. Product reviews were more varied and more, well, interesting (to me).

This is not a personal attack on you, Michael, nor is it uncalled for. I, like many here, have purchased almost all of the offered products in the LL Store. Simply stated, you may not care that of the last ten or so articles on the home page, I've read five, but it should worry you as a business person that there hasn't been a single item in the LL Store that I've considered purchasing in almost a year.

Quote from: michael
John,

I don't disagree with anything that you've said. I fact I have been concerned about the state of the site and especially the forum for the past couple of years.

Therefore, about 8 months ago we hired a senior system developer to create a new site which will be dramatically enhanced over what we have had here till now. Not just cosmetic changes, but structural ones. More community involvement, more authors, and many others things which I won't go into now, but which will, I believe, bring LuLa into its second decade.

No speculation please, because I won't respond to questions – yet. But folks can expect to see the beginnings of the changes that we'll be making within the next couple of months. We will at that time be polling forum members and others for input and feedback. The full evolution will take about a year after that till completion, with new features added over the months, and scope for lots of community feedback.

Michael
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Mike Louw
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2010, 03:17:03 PM »
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Quote from: Ben Rubinstein
That's funny, I just finished reading Jeeves in the Offing, literally 2 hours ago, heck I was spouting 'Rem Acu Tecegisti' to my teachers when I was 14 years old, no doubt they thought me odd.   I wonder if kids these days would enjoy PG Wodehouse like I did when being 14 years old still had a sense of innocence..

I remember being terribly disappointed as a teenager when I discovered that P.G. Wodehouse had died and there would be no more stories  
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rogermorris
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2010, 07:17:27 PM »
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Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
Could't help noticing how "rogermorris" post sounds a lot like the Cerberus-in-Chief's alter ego (i.e., when he occasionally gets up on the right side of the bed)  . Also, funny how those "long-time lurkers, first-time posters" tend to introduce themselves through a verbal diarrhea. Let the witch burning (i.e., banning) begin!
I live and spend my time on the wrong coast (West) for your conspiracy theory to function as reality.

Not every internet forum is (or needs to be) the wild west in terms of people being free to "do" or say anything they want.
It also goes without saying that attacking your host in a public forum such as this one is an open invitation (almost an open request) to be banned.
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michael
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2010, 09:16:57 PM »
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The one thing I've learned from running this site for the past 11 years is that old saw about "pleasing some of the people.... but not all of the people all of the time". As a consequence rather than trying to please others, I simply try and please myself.

This isn't as a result of arrogance, simply experience that has shown me that no matter what I do or write I will please some people and displease others.

I also don't think that some people have any idea how much effort is involved in producing a site that publishes between 8 and 12 new articles each month, month in and month out, year in and year out. And how much work it is for one person to shoot, edit, and sound mix the Video Journals and tutorials that we produce.

Chris and I do the best we can, which also includes maintaining the site, running the online store, dealing with orders, forum registrations, technical issues, finances and so on. Oh yes, I also teach workshops, write magazine articles, run a photography gallery, and do consulting.

This is all stated just to illustrate that if the video journals don't come as often as some would wish, or some of the submitted articles are not to ones liking, it's because this entire site has been built as a labour of love. Nothing more. Nothing less. And if and when it stops being fun, it will end.

Just had to get that off my chest after some of the wingeing that this thread has produced.

Michael
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:53:28 PM by Chris Sanderson » Logged
HarryHoffman
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« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2010, 12:21:32 AM »
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I really appreciate what you are doing Michael. I know people that run forums and the workload is unbelievable. You are definitely not doing it for the money, as you could work at McDonalds and make $ more per hour.
There are always people that see it differently and that usually keeps it interesting. If everyone had the same thought process, the world would be a boring place. Do what you think is right and 95% of us will be very happy.
Looking forward to the next 10 years on LL
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:21:59 AM by HarryHoffman » Logged

erick.boileau
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« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2010, 01:16:59 AM »
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LL is one of my favorite websites

many thanks
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2010, 01:58:24 AM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
LL is one of my favorite websites

many thanks

+1


ADDENDUM: Content is everything! And content providing is the really hard work behind running a website. I'd strongly suggest to get more people involved in providing articles, tutorial videos and such. LL has a lot of very competent people listening and contributing to this site, be it technical skill, artistical competence, product knowledge, marketing knowledge, and, and, and .... It would be a pity not having utilized this to its full potential.

Cheers
~Chris
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kers
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« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2010, 03:14:25 AM »
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I very much enjoy the information and discussions on this site. I have learned a lot and sometimes can put in some information from my own experience.

About the Warren Mars post- I must say i found a lot of information there too, combined with a lot of foolish remarks.
I did not like the rude language that spoiled the discussion ( and Warren Mars was certainly one of them) as i do not like the Ken Rockwell teasers. It is too easy to jump on a single person with a whole bunch of people.
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Pieter Kers
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« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2010, 06:08:33 AM »
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I'm member 230, I've been an infrequent contributor but a regular visitor over the past 7 years (almost to the day actually). How many members are there now? I don't know but I saw a post today from a member whose number was over 58,000.

Here's a simple question - where else will you go if you don't like what you see here?

Name another forum with the depth of knowledge of this one, and the willingness, as well as resilience, of the proprietor to continue to run it.

I do lots of seminars - I always recommend a trip to LL to find answers to photographic questions. Everyone I have sent has been amazed at the depth of information available for free.

LL rocks - in whatever form it takes from now on.
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Nick Rains
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2010, 06:28:07 AM »
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Quote from: kers
About the Warren Mars post- I must say i found a lot of information there too, combined with a lot of foolish remarks.
He has his own website ... you should visit him ...

He even has his own forums where you can discuss the new religion he has founded or his quest to get the Tolkien Estate to allow him to release and publish his musical take on the elvish poems of Tolkien's works.

Warren was like a guy who just learned about Einstein trying to explain his new found appreciation for gravity to a bunch of professional baseball players ... all while claiming to be THE world's leading expert on baseball.
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stamper
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« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2010, 06:34:18 AM »
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Quote from: kers
I very much enjoy the information and discussions on this site. I have learned a lot and sometimes can put in some information from my own experience.

About the Warren Mars post- I must say i found a lot of information there too, combined with a lot of foolish remarks.
I did not like the rude language that spoiled the discussion ( and Warren Mars was certainly one of them) as i do not like the Ken Rockwell teasers. It is too easy to jump on a single person with a whole bunch of people.

I am sorry that you don't like me. I will try to improve in the future
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cmi
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« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2010, 06:47:42 AM »
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Quote from: Nick Rains
I'm member 230, I've been an infrequent contributor but a regular visitor over the past 7 years (almost to the day actually). How many members are there now? I don't know but I saw a post today from a member whose number was over 58,000.

Here's a simple question - where else will you go if you don't like what you see here?

Name another forum with the depth of knowledge of this one, and the willingness, as well as resilience, of the proprietor to continue to run it.

I do lots of seminars - I always recommend a trip to LL to find answers to photographic questions. Everyone I have sent has been amazed at the depth of information available for free.

LL rocks - in whatever form it takes from now on.

Hey, that sums up my thoughts nicely!

Im relatively new here, reading since 2 or 3 years. There might indeed be some problems here, or it might have been better or more productive in past times. Whatever, I dont know so I can't compare. But still, in comparisations to other forums I know, there is a lot done right here, there are a lot of good things, a gathering of incredible knowledge and knowledgable people. (For example, only one thing, the way images are criticized here(Art section at the bottom) stands out in many ways compared to the shortsighted pixel-peeperisms you may read elsewhere.) So basically what I want to say, complaints/remarks about the situation here (neccessary as they are) are already on a quite high level. Nothing is perfect.

Cheers,

Christian
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 06:48:39 AM by Christian Miersch » Logged
jjj
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« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2010, 07:17:08 AM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
He has his own website ... you should visit him ...

He even has his own forums where you can discuss the new religion he has founded or his quest to get the Tolkien Estate to allow him to release and publish his musical take on the elvish poems of Tolkien's works.

Warren was like a guy who just learned about Einstein trying to explain his new found appreciation for gravity to a bunch of professional baseball players ... all while claiming to be THE world's leading expert on baseball.
Not visited/posted on here for a long while but this certainly an entertaining website. Albeit for all the wrong reasons.
Don't miss time lost arguing with the crazy people I have to say.


Good to see that LL may be getting an overhaul. Something I've always found incongruous about LL is a site devoted to excellence in imagery is that it is rather ugly, poorly designed and oddly lacking in imagery. Things are easy to rectify though.
But LL has been an excellent resource in the past for learning about digital imagery and a more sensible real world approach to kit reviews, but as already observed above, digital photography is a maturing field. So a shift will almost certainly be needed to maintain people's interest.

I was also amused by Michael's apparent Volte Face on the Olympus Pen EP. On paper it maybe a deeply flawed camera, especially compared to it's direct rival. But in reality, a camera that is actually very desirable and very likable. But being able to admit to a change of mind is in my view is actually a good thing.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 07:19:01 AM by jjj » Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
Bill VN
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« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2010, 11:42:08 AM »
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Quote from: michael
The one thing I've learned from running this site for the past 11 years is that old saw about "pleasing some of the people.... but not all of the people all of the time". As a consequence rather than trying to please others, I simply try and please myself.

This isn't as a result of arrogance, simply experience that has shown me that no matter what I do or write I will please some people and displease others.

I also don't think that some people have any idea how much effort is involved in producing a site that publishes between 8 and 12 new articles each month, month in and month out, year in and year out. And how much work it is for one person to shoot, edit, and sound mix the Video Journals and tutorials that we produce.

Chris and I do the best we can, which also includes maintaining the site, running the online store, dealing with orders, forum registrations, technical issues, finances and so on. Oh yes, I also teach workshops, write magazine articles, run a photography gallery, and do consulting.

This is all stated just to illustrate that if the video journals don't come as often as some would wish, or some of the submitted articles are not to ones liking, it's because this entire site has been built as a labour of love. Nothing more. Nothing less. And if and when it stops being fun, it will end.

Just had to get that off my chest after some of the wingeing that this thread has produced.

Michael

One thing Mike. The color scheme of this discussion forum is much better than the white on black theme on your site. I find it very difficult to read the text in many cases. You may want to consider a change.

Regards,

Bill VN
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Colorwave
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« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2010, 03:03:46 PM »
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LL:  
Perfect?  Nah, it's big, sometimes unwieldy, and as flawed as the human nature that created and propagates it.
Informative, stimulating, helpful, and sometimes even entertaining?  Absolutely.

Obviously these are more evolutionary than revolutionary times in photography, after a wild ride in recent years, and that is sometimes reflected in this site.  I welcome Michael's intent to retool the site, and love the idea of any change that will foster more creative content to complement the wealth of technical expertise already found here.  

Thanks, for all your past, present and future efforts, Michael, and I look forward to more glimpses of the spangly new LL in the coming months.

BTW:  The "Beyond Mars'" subtitle to this thread has a slightly futuristic ring to it.  Was it just fortuitous happenstance that you revealed your efforts to reinvent LL on this ironically named thread?

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