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Author Topic: How good are you?  (Read 6092 times)
stamper
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« on: January 31, 2010, 04:24:07 AM »
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I have been lurking and posting here for a few years. A lot of good information and some not so good? A lot of posters come across really well and they write what seems to be knowledgeable information. What I would really like to see how good they really are as photographers? Michael could you make it a condition of membership that every so often a member should be compelled to post an image proving that they can take good images? This would mean that they would be taken more seriously as posters?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 06:03:16 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I have been lurking and posting here for a few years. A lot of good information and some not so good? A lot of posters come across really well and they write what seems to be knowledgeable information. What I would really like to see how good they really are as photographers? Michael could you make it a condition of membership that every so often a member should be compelled to post an image proving that they can take good images? This would mean that they would be taken more seriously as posters?
Hi,

To me, this idea would only have a discrimination effect. And, who judge if a picture is good or not? I think the all sense of a forum like this is to meet and share at any level, not to divide. If it has to be a kind of select club of the "good ones" it would end in a sad monologue.
I went to MF room to get some informations because I'm planning a move to MF or LF. In this area, I'm a beginner, I'm not good and need to learn everything. And I was very pleased to see how the knowledgable users spent a bit of their precious time to help me. They just could have ignored me for not being part of the select club of the "good ones", but fortunately LU-LA is a good place for any kind of photographers.
Maybe in the future if I get good, I will remenber how helpfull were the advices on this forum, and will also be happy to share my experience with the not-so-good-one, or the beginner.

Regards,

Fred.
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stamper
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 06:35:40 AM »
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The post is aimed at the posters who have been giving their pearls of wisdom for a good length of time who appear to know what they are talking about? Many of them have hundreds of posts but some people will be wondering how good they really are? A lot of them post images on a regular basis which means the members know they that they can take good images as well as criticising others. It helps to know how good a photographer is when he has replied to one of your posts?

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To me, this idea would only have a discrimination effect. And, who judge if a picture is good or not?  

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The members who are looking at them?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:37:45 AM by stamper » Logged

RSL
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 07:34:10 AM »
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Not only do I agree with Stamper, I've posted about this several times over the past year. There are a number of places on the web where it's possible for people to create galleries of their best work. I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone be denied the right to criticize the photographs they see posted on LuLa, but to me it would be a big help if I could look at a representative sample of the critic's work to help me make a judgment about the value of the criticism. I tend to undervalue comments by those who don't post a URL to a personal gallery.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 07:44:28 AM »
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Of course I would consider it "good style" to post own images and
to show something from oneself when commenting/criticizing other peoples images.

But I would never recommend to control this - I believe it would bring something into
these forums which would be not so good.
Lets say someone would do harsh criticizing of others images and not give a possibility to
look at his/her images, either by posting or providing a link, I believe this would quickly
get sorted out by the community here.

As far as I can judge from my observations, LL is a very sane and healthy place with a community
which has the ability to sort these things out without too much administrative control.

I myself participate in the "user critiques" forum, and I often look at the images of people commenting on my images.
I can control it for myself and don't need anyone doing this for me.

I guess there are only relatively few cases, where Mr.Reichmann really has to intervene and control things.

Cheers
~Chris
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 07:47:43 AM by ChristophC » Logged

fredjeang
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 08:09:03 AM »
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Quote from: ChristophC
Lets say someone would do harsh criticizing of others images and not give a possibility to
look at his/her images, either by posting or providing a link, I believe this would quickly
get sorted out by the community here.

In that sense I agree,

Quote from: ChristophC
As far as I can judge from my observations, LL is a very sane and healthy place with a community which has the ability to sort these things out without too much administrative control.

but also agree with this above.

As a user, if I put my pictures in the "critic room", I have no problem if posters critize harshly my work, if good manners are kept, independently if they are good or not, or if I can see their work. I'm not paying them as I would do with a masterclass or a workshop. As soon as I publish them, they belong to users and they all are free to opine. Then, I'm also free to evaluate if one criticism is worth or who's poster I can trust, without any extra rule that would not have this site.

Fred.
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michael
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 08:36:03 AM »
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Bad idea.

There are some people in the arts who are excellent critics but not so great practitioners. Cutting off their input, or denigrating it, would be counterproductive.

Let comment stand on its own. We learn soon enough to distinguish who has insight and can contribute valuable opinion, and who doesn't.

Michael
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PeterAit
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 08:38:33 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I have been lurking and posting here for a few years. A lot of good information and some not so good? A lot of posters come across really well and they write what seems to be knowledgeable information. What I would really like to see how good they really are as photographers? Michael could you make it a condition of membership that every so often a member should be compelled to post an image proving that they can take good images? This would mean that they would be taken more seriously as posters?

This strikes me as an odd idea that would have no benefits. Just because a person does not create their own interesting photographs does not mean they don't have deep technical knowledge of photography or that they cannot comment intelligently on other people's photos. Would you require that someone be skilled at painting, playing music, or writing fiction to take them seriously as a critic in that field? Of course not!
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Peter
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stamper
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 08:41:47 AM »
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It would be possible to have the images posted but not commented on? They would be there to show the poster's credentials, like an avatar in a large size? Despite the fact that there are many different sub forums here for different aspects it is primarily a photography forum and anyone lurking here should do so as a photographer. To be blunt there are a few "snipers" - as on all forums - here who like to snipe but don't put themselves up as a target?
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stamper
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 08:51:51 AM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
This strikes me as an odd idea that would have no benefits. Just because a person does not create their own interesting photographs does not mean they don't have deep technical knowledge of photography or that they cannot comment intelligently on other people's photos. Would you require that someone be skilled at painting, playing music, or writing fiction to take them seriously as a critic in that field? Of course not!

I think that I can definitely disagree with that comment! Deep technical knowledge and doesn't  create their own interesting photographs? Why would he/she go to the bother of learning and then don't do it? Come to think of it there are possibly a few on here who like to give the impression of  "deep technical knowledge" and don't do it? Hence the reason for my original post.
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stamper
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 08:54:01 AM »
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Quote from: michael
Bad idea.

There are some people in the arts who are excellent critics but not so great practitioners. Cutting off their input, or denigrating it, would be counterproductive.

Let comment stand on its own. We learn soon enough to distinguish who has insight and can contribute valuable opinion, and who doesn't.

Michael

It isn't my idea to cut off their input Michael, just establish their credentials?
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Justan
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 09:36:35 AM »
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If all have to be “certified” the forum heads down a path where only the cool kids can or will participate. That is a very bad idea. In the approach we use now, all are encouraged to participate, learn and share.

If one feels the need to read credentials to decide if feedback is valid, it amounts to a thin veneer of evasive BS over a baseless excuse to turn one’s back on a lot of valid input.

A more valid approach might be: does anyone see a deficiency in comments as they exist now? If so address the deficiencies rationally, rather than rationalizing that the format should be changed. The underlying issue is that if one is looking for reasons to dismiss feedback, then, one is not truly interested in feedback in the first place..................
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 09:50:36 AM »
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I think this is another occurence  of what some friends of mine call the "curse of the net".

You can not be as easily sure of a person you learn to know online than in real life due to the restricted nature of online communication.

To me it looks as if stamper was hit by exactly this and tried to fix it in a way which would not really work.

I think on such a forum it takes longer and is more difficult to learn to know people and to judge their reactions as well.
Misunderstandings easily ocur and people sometimes accidentally hurt others without meaning to do so.

From my long term experience as a netizen (20+ years - yes - I know the Times of Datex in Germany and when full TCP access was a luxury - you remember "trumpet winsock"?...) the only solution here is to take your time to learn to know people and to find out the value of their judgements by yourself and with patience ...
no rule or administrative measure of control can save you from that.

Cheers
~Chris
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RSL
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 09:55:40 AM »
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I need to add one correction. I'd never make it a requirement for anyone to post his work. It's up to the critic whether or not he wants to expose his own work. But failing to show your own work when you criticize makes me less likely to accept the idea that your criticism is valuable.
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Joe Behar
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 10:17:36 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I have been lurking and posting here for a few years. A lot of good information and some not so good? A lot of posters come across really well and they write what seems to be knowledgeable information. What I would really like to see how good they really are as photographers? Michael could you make it a condition of membership that every so often a member should be compelled to post an image proving that they can take good images? This would mean that they would be taken more seriously as posters?

So what you want is information that you can trust, information that comes from someone that you consider to be a good photographer, technically knowledgeable and generally accepted as having good credentials to guide you in areas that you are not as well educated on as you would like to be.

And you want to compel the owner of this website and the people who contribute to it to provide you with that FOR FREE.

You're also asking that anyone that does not meet some vague concept of being a "good photographer" be shut out from having a voice, regardless of the fact that they might just have a style that does not suit you, or they may also be a relative novice in some areas and want to learn...just like you do.

May I suggest that you find a photographer whose work you admire, approve of and want to learn from, and then contact them and see if they might be willing to take you on as an apprentice and teach you what you want to learn? They might not offer all this for free, hell they might not offer it at all, but that would certainly satisfy your needs.

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walter.sk
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 10:25:11 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I have been lurking and posting here for a few years. A lot of good information and some not so good? A lot of posters come across really well and they write what seems to be knowledgeable information. What I would really like to see how good they really are as photographers? Michael could you make it a condition of membership that every so often a member should be compelled to post an image proving that they can take good images? This would mean that they would be taken more seriously as posters?
I know some really good photographers whose technical "knowledge" contains a great deal of misinformation.  I know some really good critics whose own pictures may be technically perfect but lack creativity. Also, in every field you can name, from the arts to sports, there are coaches, editors, educators, etc., who can spot problems with a person's performance and know how to correct them yet not be able to perform themselves in the particular area.

In these forums, I have also seen well established photographers' work be dismissed as "not art" or "a scam," and I have seen what I consider to be mediocre work praised.  I agree with those who say that on these forums, things sort themselves out.

In addition, how do you know that a contributor has not presented his/her own photographs here?  If you have a question about a specific individual, do a search of that person's posts and you might turn up some examples of their photos; if not, you might even then request of them that they share their work.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 10:35:30 AM »
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I can't take a good picture to save my life.  But happy to put one up.  Can it be a cat photo?
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Rob C
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 10:58:06 AM »
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Stamper

I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that this is an idea you would like to see applied to the people who respond to photographs put up here for criticism? I can see your line of thought and, basically, I tend to agree with you but I don't really see how it could be implemented without restricting the criticism function  to a small clique of other photographers reaching a level of expertise acceptable to the current control system.

As you have probably noticed from past posts, I have little belief in the wisdom or value of the act of seeking such criticism and hardly ever look at that section nor take part, but putting that aside for the moment, I do think that it is of greater value for criticism to be wide open to the world and its sister. That would quickly show the picture poster that not all of the people who are going to have an impact on his/her work - as viewers - know their ass from their elbow, but that that fact will never stop them from holding and expounding their points of view. The status quo, then? That alone might be a lesson worth learning and a price worth paying...

I remember this same argument being aimed at myself some year or so ago in other sections of the forum because of my reluctance to post. It made me feel rather awkward because I wanted to prove my credentials but felt very inhibited in doing so, not because of any doubts about my work (if you have them then how can you be a pro and last for more than a week?), but simply because much of the work was model-related and involved genuine worries about releases, client confidentiality and all manner of business questions that might escape the non-pro. In the end, I took a chance and did post but never allowed the images to remain up beyond the immediate period of interest. (I think - if any still lurk out there, please let me know in order to cancel them!) I can see why other, perfectly capable photographers, might easily have similar reservations about going public with their work.

Overall, I think the current system works well enough for those who feel the need to use those parts of it where criticism is invited. Having said that, I do not agree with other views expressed here that non-practitioners are really qualified to be critics; if anything, isn't that part of the reason that modern ideas of art (let's include photography here) pushed by curators, magazine and newspaper writers have led to the mess that seems to be the current vogue? I believe these groups have their own personal agendas and that that's really where their efforts are aimed: the pushing of their own careers within the art world. Hell, they are just jobs like any other.

Rob C
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ckimmerle
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 11:01:53 AM »
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It's an interesting idea with a modicum merit, but to be effective would need to be differentiated into separate but equal technical (software, hardware) and aesthetic (critique, technique) categories. On the technical side, it's not always necessary to have an experienced and talented photographer giving advice as software/hardware procedures and techniques are relatively easy to learn and subsequently master if one is willing to commit the time and effort.

Aesthetics (composition, image quality, tonality, subject, message, etc) is the core of any art. In this highly subjective category, a valid argument could be made to the importance of talent and experience, without which would omit the essential foundation for understanding and appreciation, thus making meaningful feedback a rarity. Of course, there is no guarantee that even a talented photographer would be able to provide helpful information.

In the end, I doubt any official requirement for "proof of talent" would do much as there is no guarantee of the outcome. Still, I think it does the photo community a service if we provide links to our own work. It not only provides a indication of talent, but also of interests and messages.

Quote from: Rob C
....I do not agree with other views expressed here that non-practitioners are really qualified to be critics; if anything, isn't that part of the reason that modern ideas of art (let's include photography here) pushed by curators, magazine and newspaper writers have led to the mess that seems to be the current vogue? I believe these groups have their own personal agendas.....

Hear, hear!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 11:06:27 AM by ckimmerle » Logged

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JeffKohn
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2010, 11:53:10 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I think that I can definitely disagree with that comment! Deep technical knowledge and doesn't  create their own interesting photographs? Why would he/she go to the bother of learning and then don't do it? Come to think of it there are possibly a few on here who like to give the impression of  "deep technical knowledge" and don't do it? Hence the reason for my original post.
Who says one has to be capable of creating "interesting photographs" for their deep technical knowledge to be accurate or relevant? Being a good photographer is not a requisite element of having technical knowledge of things like software, sensors, etc.

Roger Ebert's one movie credit is universally regarded as dreadful, does that mean he has no legitimacy as a movie critic? This sort of thinking is just absurd.

I'm with Michael, let poster's comments stand on their own merits.

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